The "no history" argument

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The "no history" argument

Postby MaineRoadMemories » Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:22 pm

It annoys the hell out of me when fans and players chat on about we have no history and we are buying our way to success. It's so hypocritical so I was delighted to read a Martin Samual article on this very topic.

Henry Ford. You wouldn’t want him on your pub quiz team but he certainly knew how to run a business. It must go forward. It must be evolving and improving constantly.

Football clubs are the same. Everyone knows Ford’s pithy history quote, but he regularly expanded on the subject to great effect. ‘We don’t want tradition,’ he said. ‘We want to live in the present and the only history worth a tinker’s damn is the history we make today.’

And this brings us to Javier Mascherano. Last month, when Liverpool were playing Manchester City in what some misguidedly believed was a decider for the fourth Champions League place, Mascherano had some interesting things to say. He joined in a familiar Anfield refrain and announced City had no history.

Maybe if City got into the top four they would build on that as Chelsea did,’ opined Mascherano. ‘But I will tell you one thing: you can buy players, but you cannot buy history. At Liverpool, we play with the history of the club. We don’t have the money they have, but we are proud to play for Liverpool. I don’t want to play for Manchester City.'

This is an increasingly popular theme at a club where history has been redefined along exactingly narrow parameters to mean not all events that happened in the past, but success attained in a previous existence.

Chelsea do not have history either, apparently, despite beating Liverpool to a European trophy by two years in 1971. Manchester City beat them into being by five years, to the FA Cup by 61 years, to the League Cup by 11 years and to a European trophy by three years.

Liverpool certainly made up for it after that but it is a bit disingenuous to regard history merely as events that took place over two specific decades. Every club has history, even Milton Keynes Dons.

It may not be a history that is particularly memorable — or in the case of MK Dons, palatable — it may not be worth a tinker’s damn as Ford would say, but it is there none the less.

Manchester City are trying to buy success and a slice of what Mascherano calls history, but this is hardly new. Of the 26 players who represented Liverpool in four European Cup finals between 1977 and 1984, only seven were home grown. The stellar names — Kenny Dalglish, Graeme Souness, Alan Hansen, Mark Lawrenson, Ian Rush — were bought. These were different times and many arrivals were relative bargains from smaller clubs but back then that was the way even the biggest teams operated in the transfer market.

The principles were the same. Liverpool bought the best players from Scotland, the smaller First Division clubs and the lower leagues, and the best players delivered the best history. Now City are trying to do the same, but the market has changed so the process is considerably more expensive and scouts now trawl only upmarket shops.

‘We have some very good players and we will fight to the end,’ Mascherano added, prior to the Manchester City game. ‘Then we will see what happens.’

What happened was that Liverpool and City played out one of the dullest goalless draws of the season, while on the same day Tottenham Hotspur defeated Wigan Athletic 3-0 and Aston Villa beat Burnley 5-2. Tottenham have subsequently taken three points off Everton, while Manchester City have achieved their marquee result under the stewardship of Roberto Mancini by winning 4-2 at league leaders Chelsea.

Liverpool squeaked past Blackburn Rovers at home and lost to Wigan away. They are a point behind Tottenham, who have a game in hand, a point behind Manchester City, who have two games in hand, and three points ahead of Aston Villa, who have three games in hand.

Tottenham meet Manchester City for their extra game, so the best-case scenario for Liverpool is that two teams are two points clear and the worst is that one team is six points clear and two are four points clear.

And the strangest twist in the plot is that Mascherano, the history man, is now talking about his career at Liverpool in vague terms. ‘I am very happy at Liverpool,’ he says, ‘but I want to know what the club’s plans are and then we will see if, at this moment in time, I can renew my contract.

Plans, Javier? Aren’t plans the stuff of the future? What about all that lovely history?
Shouldn’t the conversation go, ‘I know we appear to be travelling backwards; that lesser teams present a serious challenge to us, I know we were removed from the Champions League at the group stage and may not even qualify for the tournament next season but, hey — 11 league titles and four European Cups between 1973 and 1990, you can’t say fairer than that. Now, where do I sign?’

History is more or less bunk, said Ford and, deep down, Mascherano must agree. Barcelona’s interest in him is well known and if he leaves he will no doubt couch his departure in terms that are consistent with his desire for substance and grandeur.
We know the reality, though.

Liverpool have history, yes, but Mascherano also fears they may be history unless the financial fortunes improve, and he has no desire to spend another season skirmishing in the Europa League — or even contemplating it.

Nobody is blaming him, just spare us the lofty dismissals of Manchester City, or any club that dares to have ambition. For a player whose arrival in English football involved him being parked at West Ham United while waiting for a bigger, richer employer to come along, Mascherano appears to have ascended very quickly to the high ground.

One imagines that in his disappointing first season, had Chelsea and not Liverpool expressed an interest, he would have dismissed these tiresome parvenus and returned to the welcoming arms of the West Ham reserve team, where he had been consigned by noted football genius Alan Curbishley.

The reason Mascherano can haughtily turn down Manchester City — apart from the fact that they have not tried to buy him — is that he knows he has a more substantial suitor in Spain.

Rafael Benitez, the Liverpool manager, mocked Sam Allardyce at Blackburn, saying Barcelona were looking to copy his style, but within days the joke rebounded

Allardyce responded smartly by producing statistics that showed Blackburn’s pass completion rate was just 0.7 per cent less than Liverpool’s, and his players had spent more time in the attacking third, despite it being an away game.

According to the Prozone figures, Blackburn also had more shots on target, more crosses and more penalty area entries. Blackburn are no Barcelona but neither are Liverpool this season and they haven’t been for some while.

Liverpool play a direct style but with better players and there is not a person in football who would consider Mascherano to be taking a step down by swapping Anfield for Nou Camp. Even Benitez chose Barcelona as his reference point when he sought to belittle Allardyce. If he thoughtLiverpool’s football was in the same class he could have said ‘we’ are looking to copy Blackburn, instead.
There was a time when Liverpool were considered the acme of the European game. This is the era to which Mascherano refers, in which the club made history.

Unfortunately, nothing, even history, stands still. Since then, there has been more history, much of it less than glorious.
And even the events of Monday, March 8, 2010 are part of the annals now. It will go down as the night on which Liverpool lost to Wigan: for the first time in their history, in fact.
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Re: The "no history" argument

Postby brite blu sky » Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:29 pm

saw this earlier.. for once a bit of justice in the press.

( funnily i was chatting to a scouce1 fan on his hols last week and he was already blabbin on about history, i suggested that was cos he had already given up this season.. the look in his eyes and total lack of anything coming out of his mouth said it all )
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Re: The "no history" argument

Postby dazby » Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:29 pm

Excellent article.
Attack the argument of the person, not the person of the argument- except Carl.
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Re: The "no history" argument

Postby Dingus McDouchey » Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:32 pm

"Great in the eighties. You were great in the eighties. Great in the eiiiightiies. You were great in the eigghtiees."
Berbatov wins golden boot, spends following season on the bench while his team loses title on goal difference. Well played, Fergie.
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Re: The "no history" argument

Postby mr_nool » Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:36 pm

I loved that article!
Spot on and plenty of abuse to a well deserved Mascherano.
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Re: The "no history" argument

Postby 10.Goater_Legend » Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:36 pm

dazby wrote:Excellent article.

+1, brilliant read.
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Re: The "no history" argument

Postby Im_Spartacus » Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:18 pm

excellent, gives good comeback to the smug scouse cunts
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Re: The "no history" argument

Postby Fullartj » Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:52 pm

I am sick to death of Liverpool fans going on about their history. I absolutely hate Liverpool with a passion!
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Re: The "no history" argument

Postby The Foggy Blue » Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:00 pm

Where's it from gents?
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Re: The "no history" argument

Postby Im_Spartacus » Wed Mar 10, 2010 6:07 pm

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/articl ... erano.html

Every time I read this, I want to go and find a Liverpool fan and hit him over the head with this article attached to a brick. Man i'm really beginning to hate these fuckers
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Re: The "no history" argument

Postby brite blu sky » Wed Mar 10, 2010 6:09 pm

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Re: The "no history" argument

Postby Mark Garrett » Wed Mar 10, 2010 6:19 pm

Excellent read and best football journalist by some considerable distance
MANCINI Record at City

2009-10 League..................Pld 21 - W 11 - D 5 - L 5 - GF 40 - GA 18 - Pts 38...Finished 5th
2010-11 League..................Pld 38 - W 21 - D 8 - L 9 - GF 60 - GA 33 - Pts 71...Finished 3rd..FA Cup Winners
2011-12 League..................Pld 38 - W 28 - D 5 - L 5 - GF 93 - GA 29 - Pts 89...Finished 1st..League Champions
2012-13 League..................Pld 36 - W 22 - D 9 - L 5 - GF 62 - GA 31 - Pts 75...Finished 2nd

Domestic Cups record.........Pld 30 - W 18 - D 4 - L 8 - GF 63 - GA 36
European Cups record.........Pld 28 - W 13 - D 7 - L 8 - GF 43 - GA 29

Overall record at City......Pld 191 - W 113 - D 38 - L 40 - GF 361 - GA 176


(Updated after the Wigan FA Cup Final game)
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Re: The "no history" argument

Postby dave watson's perm » Wed Mar 10, 2010 6:26 pm

The scousers don't like it up 'em >8-]
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Re: The "no history" argument

Postby Citizen of Oslo » Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:43 pm

The lack of knowledge to history by some people in football don't stop surprising me. Thanks for excellent article. Hope this thread remains.
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Re: The "no history" argument

Postby Blue2 » Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:50 pm

We had as much history as the the scum until a certain event in Munich
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Re: The "no history" argument

Postby The Man In Blue » Wed Mar 10, 2010 10:33 pm

i have to confess it winds me up more than any other jibe.

we can't buy history, but why the fuck would we need to with 130 odd years of the stuff?
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Re: The "no history" argument

Postby Dazzacity » Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:26 pm

I cant stand the fookers. Where I live, they are the worst bunch of fans goin-alot worse than the rags. They're all clueless tossers that go on about nothin else but history. I always say that its the future that matters and from where Im standing, ours is lookin a hell of alot brighter..
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Re: The "no history" argument

Postby Colin the King » Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:37 am

You could say Martin Samuel has a soft spot for us- or you could say it only appears that way because so many of his 'colleagues' are completely unreasonable. He doesn't exaggerate, he just speaks the truth.

On the 'no history' argument, there's a ridiculous obsession with trophies where history is concerned. Liverpool and the rags constantly remind us of having no history- what about the history of 30,000 in the 3rd Division to begin with? It's so stupid and narrowminded to think that trophies=history. There's so much more to it than that.

Any reasonable football fan knows we have a big, sometimes bizarre history and it's interesting that these jibes have increased tenfold only since the Sheikh came along. We were everyone's 2nd club before then. Jealousy?
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Re: The "no history" argument

Postby brite blu sky » Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:44 am

Colin the King wrote:Any reasonable football fan knows we have a big, sometimes bizarre history and it's interesting that these jibes have increased tenfold only since the Sheikh came along. We were everyone's 2nd club before then. Jealousy?


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Re: The "no history" argument

Postby john@staustell » Thu Mar 11, 2010 7:49 am

The Mascherano quote was stupid anyway. It's the Dippers clutching at straws, which they do more and more.

Imagine if Liverpool 'did a Leeds', which is quite possible given the precarious finances. So when they are in League one does the dozy Argie prefer to play for Liverpool because 'they've got history'?

Does he fuck.

Excellent article, brownie points for Martin Samuel this week.
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