European Super League - A Reality? (Poll Added)

[Rag_hater]

I think the way our sponsership is growing shows that we are box office , look at our figures for the derby(next to classico it is next biggest) and calculate how box office that is and if the battle lines were drawn tomorrow we would get in and as for the short term success I think being 2nd last year ,winning the FA cup and that Aguerooooooo thing suggests to me that short term we are doing quite well.As for being able to do fuckall I think if nobody watched this ESL then the issue of being able to do nowt would not be an issue.

I started up a football coaching program the other week in Saudi Arabia. There were 75 kids showed up, and as part of the registration I asked the parents to tell me the kids favourite team.

Out of 75, how many do you reckon chose city? 1 - and he was british. Of the rest, Real Madrid, Barcelona were far and away the biggest choice, with United a distant third and Chelsea 4th.

That tells me quite clearly that whilst we are a successful team now in the premier league, that has not been the case for sufficient time for us to work our way into the consciousness of the casual football fan who has no loyalty to a particular league, and just wants a superstar or two to idolise. At the moment, these floating supporters may watch the big derbys when they come around, but how many do you think will tune in for west ham at the weekend? Contrast that to those who will tune into a mundane barca league game just to see messi, iniesta, fabregas etc smash another 5 goals past shit opposition. Add to that, if city play the same time as barca in the champs league, who do the foreigners tune into, city? Not likely.

Our sponsorships have increased on the basis of having exposure to that global market by being in the champions league and particularly the highlights programs, and being one of the top teams in england, but the reality is that the world at large dont give a flying fuck about city and they certainly dont tune in to watch us in the way they do barca, real etc. Thats before you even question the validity of some of our so called sponsorship deals.

To really understand, i think its necessary to actually stop thinking like a football fan on this and start to think like one of the chinese who will simply follow the biggest club with the biggest name players. That aint us, and wont be until we have had maybe a decade of sustained success, and the global superstars which would come with that level of domination.

I think you make some good points but for me the fact we beat other teams to get the deals that have got lately suggests to me that our profile is rising and we are the club to be associated with,also the fact that companies are using our players for adverts means we are getting global exposure.
Joe does H&S,
Vinny does Nike,
Sergio Does Pepsi,
El magico does Gran Canaria,
they are the ones I have seen,I wouldn't be suprised if there are more.

[JamieMCFC]

I think you make some good points but for me the fact we beat other teams to get the deals that have got lately suggests to me that our profile is rising and we are the club to be associated with,also the fact that companies are using our players for adverts means we are getting global exposure.
Joe does H&S,
Vinny does Nike,
Sergio Does Pepsi,
El magico does Gran Canaria,
they are the ones I have seen,I wouldn't be suprised if there are more.

Well I'm sure Nike wouldn't be happy with Vinny doing commercials for Warrior and posting behind the scenes videos on his Twitter and Instagram. They probably would be happy with Warrior releasing an statement back in February saying that Vinny has signed with them for an endorsement deal.

But how global are these deals or are they like most pro athlete endorsement deals and are region specific. Look at EA Sports with their FIFA release. The covers for those are region specific.

[Rag_hater]

I think you make some good points but for me the fact we beat other teams to get the deals that have got lately suggests to me that our profile is rising and we are the club to be associated with,also the fact that companies are using our players for adverts means we are getting global exposure.
Joe does H&S,
Vinny does Nike,
Sergio Does Pepsi,
El magico does Gran Canaria,
they are the ones I have seen,I wouldn't be suprised if there are more.

Well I'm sure Nike wouldn't be happy with Vinny doing commercials for Warrior and posting behind the scenes videos on his Twitter and Instagram. They probably would be happy with Warrior releasing an statement back in February saying that Vinny has signed with them for an endorsement deal.

But how global are these deals or are they like most pro athlete endorsement deals and are region specific. Look at EA Sports with their FIFA release. The covers for those are region specific.

I think that the point about how global the endorsement are could be asked about any product.All the deals are only paid for when they would be specific.There would be no point advertising say a gambling site during a program where you couldn't do it.

[Rag_hater]

The level of disparity is mind-boggling, but the system in place in La Liga ensures that each club gets a fair representation of what it is worth. Barcelona and Real Madrid are awarded much more lucrative TV deals since they attract a larger audience than their competitors.
Therefore, one solution is to scrap the individual deals, and implement an-EPL style deal where money is shared more equally among the clubs, regardless of stature. In principle, this is a great idea; but in reality, near impossible to realize,it's hard to imagine Real and Barca sharing what they get eqally with rest of league like they have to in CL.In fact I think Barca and Real would have to share equally with 18 other teams any income generated from an ESL.But as they are on the radar and have influence sure Bayern and Juve and all the others would look after them.

[Socrates]

Quick point, and not sure if anyone has made it already, the idea that the league will have a limit to how many teams come from a given country is not necessarily true. Just because UEFA would need to impose such a rule on competitions does not mean a breakaway league would have to. They are as likely to go for the 20 biggest teams in terms of turnover as anything else, in fact more likely given their aims. If they do we are already number 7 and were top 20 even before the takeover. We cannot assume we would be out.

[Rag_hater]

Seems to me that last night and tonight there are going to be some blockbuster games involving teams that would be in a super league if one was created.I should imagine the clubs that were playing last night managed to make as much money as was possible to make.If I am not mistaken last nights games were played in a league format.

[Original Dub]

Well well well raggy - your level of debate and grasp of the English language in general seems to have come on leaps and bounds in this thread.

Of course, based on your normal posts, some would question whether or not it was someone else's work?

[Rag_hater]

Well well well raggy - your level of debate and grasp of the English language in general seems to have come on leaps and bounds in this thread.

Of course, based on your normal posts, some would question whether or not it was someone else's work?

Here is somebody elses work for you

[Ted Hughes]

Well well well raggy - your level of debate and grasp of the English language in general seems to have come on leaps and bounds in this thread.

Of course, based on your normal posts, some would question whether or not it was someone else's work?

It depends on the balance of medication; which of his personalities takes over (or if Robinho_Is_God escapes from the attic when his supply of fish heads runs out, & hijacks the computer).

[Rag_hater]

Well well well raggy - your level of debate and grasp of the English language in general seems to have come on leaps and bounds in this thread.

Of course, based on your normal posts, some would question whether or not it was someone else's work?

It depends on the balance of medication; which of his personalities takes over (or if Robinho_Is_God escapes from the attic when his supply of fish heads runs out, & hijacks the computer).

[Original Dub]

Here is somebody elses work for you

That's more like your style.

Copy and paste. Just like the bullshit you pretended was yours in this thread.

[Ted Hughes]

Well well well raggy - your level of debate and grasp of the English language in general seems to have come on leaps and bounds in this thread.

Of course, based on your normal posts, some would question whether or not it was someone else's work?

It depends on the balance of medication; which of his personalities takes over (or if Robinho_Is_God escapes from the attic when his supply of fish heads runs out, & hijacks the computer).

Then you are as far off beam that as with you are with your football sense.

[Original Dub]

His fixation with alcohol is so strange. It's like he thinks everyone is drinking and he is the only sober one.

Anyway, here's an interesting article I found. Some of it looks familiar...

http://www.barcablaugranes.com/2011/9/3 ... s-not-down

Jornada One is out of the way, and the Big Two have taken their place at the top. Real Madrid won 6-0 away to Real Zaragoza, and Barcelona followed suit, registering a 5-0 victory over Villarreal. The results were not surprising, but the performances were.

Real Zaragoza capitulated after the first goal, and it was impossible to believe that Villarreal nearly walked away from the Camp Nou with a point in the corresponding fixture of last season. The gulf between the duopoly (of FC Barcelona and Real Madrid) and the rest is getting larger by the week, and La Liga fans everywhere are debating who is at fault for the current status quo.

Well, not debating over the reason; instead, fans everywhere have settled on the disproportional allocation of the TV revenue as the reason, and are contemplating what the best solution is.

Though have they jumped to the wrong conclusion? Just how bad is the current TV deal? More importantly: Are any of the solutions viable?

The latest figures released by Deloitte indicate the total revenue generated via broadcast rights in the English Premier League stands at a little over £1 billion (€1.15 billion). La Liga, according to the same firm, generates €788 million (£688 million). When Real Madrid and Barcelona account for 45% of the total figure, it is easy to see why fellow La Liga fans are frustrated.

But there are reasons why a new TV-deal has not already come to fruition



Reason One: More than one broadcaster

The level of disparity is mind-boggling, but the system in place in La Liga ensures that each club gets a fair representation of what it is worth. Barcelona and Real Madrid are awarded much more lucrative TV deals since they attract a larger audience than their competitors.

Therefore, one solution is to scrap the individual deals, and implement an-EPL style deal where money is shared more equally among the clubs, regardless of stature. In principle, this is a great idea; but in reality, near impossible to realize.

There are two companies with deals to broadcast La Liga football, Mediapro and Sogecable. In England, there are two broadcasters also: BSkyB and ESPN. However, the bulk of the matches are shown on BSkyB in a 5:1 ratio, meaning that for all intents and purposes, the English Premier League has one broadcaster.

The Premier League sells the television rights in packages, with each package containing 24 matches. As explained above, BSkyB own five of the six.

This is because BSkyB (with their financial muscle) outbid everyone else, with ESPN winning the remaining package by default, as no broadcaster can own all six packages. However, ESPN is broadcast to BSkyB customers. This singular deal is lauded as the best in the world, and the consensus is that both La Liga and Serie A should adopt a similar deal.

Unfortunately, with many broadcasters vying for the same deals, the economically smart thing to do is bid for individual teams. Separating the matches into packages rather than clubs would in theory reduce the gap, but would force the companies to bid higher and higher, and as Barcelona will attest, they [the broadcasters] don’t have the money. This forms my next reason.



Reason Two: The broadcasters have no money

Mediapro filed for bankruptcy in the summer of 2010, and a large chunk of the debt issues in Spanish Football is derived from Mediapro’s financial difficulties. Unless you want to eradicate Mediapro and Sogecable completely, the package deal is not viable. The reason for Barcelona’s debt is partly down to this Mediapro deal.

Deloitte say that broadcasting deals account for 44% of Barcelona’s total turnover. Mediapro could not meet their due payments in time, so the Blaugrana had to draw out a loan, thus creating long-term debt. This happened to many clubs, but unable to convince the banks of their financial solvency, many had to go without entirely, subsequently not paying the players. This led to a strike, and unbelievably, led to calls for a better TV deal.

From what?

The companies who would constitute the new deal are the exact same ones who cannot pay the clubs in the first place. A new deal would promise more money to each club, but it would not deliver the vast majority of it.

However, Sogecable (now called PRISA TV)is still paying its clubs. Real Madrid recorded a profit in the past financial year, and this was down to the TV revenue they actually received. As I alluded to earlier, Barcelona were forced into debt by Mediapro. Could Sogecable become the Spanish equivalent of BSkyB?

Highly doubtful.

Their operating income in 2007 (the earliest figures I could find) was €176.2 million (roughly 1/10 of BSkyB), and given the World Economic Crisis, one can only assume that Sogecable was hit just as hard as the rest of the world. Assuming that they have a similar operating income at this point in time, they could not afford to take on the TV deals for the rest of the league, let alone pay each team more than they currently stand to receive.

For a singular deal to occur there would have to be a new company with financial muscle like BSkyB (perhaps even BSkyB itself).



Reason Three: It would come at the expense of Spain’s UEFA co-efficient

Any change in the much-maligned TV deal would come at the expense of Real Madrid and FC Barcelona. The system in place in England sees the best-paid team receive less than Valencia and Atletico Madrid, and such a change would immediately impact on the "Big Two". Slashing their broadcasting revenue in half would result in drastic changes, and would likely reverse the direction of transfers.

Currently, it is fair to say that no club is safe from Barcelona and Real Madrid. Arsenal captains Cesc Fabregas and Thierry Henry have moved to the Catalan club, while star players of years gone by for Manchester United have moved to Real Madrid (Cristiano Ronaldo and David Beckham). Any decrease in broadcasting revenue would ensure that the best English clubs had the financial power, and ultimately, this would provide success on the European stage.

This success would strengthen England’s world-best UEFA co-efficient; and negatively affect the Spanish one. This could lead to less UEFA Champions League places for La Liga, and the gap would be lessened in Spain, but a new gap would be created between Spain and England. Making the Spanish FA choose between a competitive league, and European success would be foolhardy.

While drastic, this collective deal could affect Spain’s co-efficient, and destroying the league’s foreign marketability by forgoing quality challengers for quantity will reduce potential all-round income.



Reason Four: Increased money is not a guarantee for success

Currently earning €62.2 million from broadcasting is Atletico Madrid, which places them at 19th in the world (see page 33). Being honest, Villarreal, Malaga, Sevilla are not likely to increase their respective TV-revenue to match even this benchmark. A collective deal would bring around €30-40 million in total for each of those sides, which is an improvement, but remains below the total Atletico currently generate.

Atletico Madrid did not challenge Barcelona or Real Madrid last season. In fact, they finished 34 points off second-place. Despite the money, they did not get close, so is it naive to think that other clubs would?

Yes, Barcelona and Madrid still get double of what Atletico did, but let’s be honest, the motivation for joining Real Madrid and FC Barcelona is not money. Cesc Fabregas took a pay cut. Javier Mascherano did as well. While it is hard to find examples of Real Madrid players doing the same, the main draw is the prestige and the almost guaranteed challenge for trophies, year in and year out.

Despite the financial incentive, many players have and would join the top two for the honour of wearing the famous shirt. It guarantees that their legacy will be remembered, improves their C.V. and gives them something to tell their grandchildren. Either Atletico should be doing better, or money does not guarantee anything, bringing me onto my next point...



Reason Five: Mismanagement of clubs outside the "Big Two"

Debt levels in La Liga have reached a collective €3.5 billion. That is higher than the Premier League, and any other league in the world. Despite the low turnover, clubs are clearly spending money they do not have. Valencia have debts of over €500 million; how does this happen?

Clearly, Spanish clubs are in need of a crash course in how to run a business.

Debt levels are getting higher by the day, and more importantly, interest-rates, are steadily increasing. However, eight clubs do not have a shirt sponsor. The easiest way to make money – and to build a world-wide brand – neglected, and for what? More debt of course!

Valencia have also decided to half-build a new stadium, the main source of their extra-ordinary debt, wasting upwards of €300 million. With clubs threatening to field weakened teams against Barca and Madrid, the marketability goes down the toilet. Who wants to watch a team that lost by five or more goals to their "challengers"?

Proposing a new TV deal is all well and good, but I fear that even that would be wasted with this incompetence.

Villarreal’s current TV-deal puts them level (give or take €100-200k) with Schalke and only €3 million behind Bayern Munich. The Bundesliga side pride themselves on financial solvency, and are reaping the rewards, though this financial well-being does not come through astronomical TV income. Other ways, such as reduced ticket prices to bring more fans, emphasis on youth development and efficient, cost-effective management negate the smaller income, and provide a product that is burgeoning.

I am not saying that Villarreal should reach the semi-finals of the Champions League like Schalke, but financial responsibility does not have to come at the cost of competitiveness.





Perhaps it is not the TV deal that needs a drastic change, but the upper echelons of the Spanish board-rooms do.

[Rag_hater]

His fixation with alcohol is so strange. It's like he thinks everyone is drinking and he is the only sober one.

Anyway, here's an interesting article I found. Some of it looks familiar...

http://www.barcablaugranes.com/2011/9/3 ... s-not-down

Jornada One is out of the way, and the Big Two have taken their place at the top. Real Madrid won 6-0 away to Real Zaragoza, and Barcelona followed suit, registering a 5-0 victory over Villarreal. The results were not surprising, but the performances were.

Real Zaragoza capitulated after the first goal, and it was impossible to believe that Villarreal nearly walked away from the Camp Nou with a point in the corresponding fixture of last season. The gulf between the duopoly (of FC Barcelona and Real Madrid) and the rest is getting larger by the week, and La Liga fans everywhere are debating who is at fault for the current status quo.

Well, not debating over the reason; instead, fans everywhere have settled on the disproportional allocation of the TV revenue as the reason, and are contemplating what the best solution is.

Though have they jumped to the wrong conclusion? Just how bad is the current TV deal? More importantly: Are any of the solutions viable?

The latest figures released by Deloitte indicate the total revenue generated via broadcast rights in the English Premier League stands at a little over £1 billion (€1.15 billion). La Liga, according to the same firm, generates €788 million (£688 million). When Real Madrid and Barcelona account for 45% of the total figure, it is easy to see why fellow La Liga fans are frustrated.

But there are reasons why a new TV-deal has not already come to fruition



Reason One: More than one broadcaster

The level of disparity is mind-boggling, but the system in place in La Liga ensures that each club gets a fair representation of what it is worth. Barcelona and Real Madrid are awarded much more lucrative TV deals since they attract a larger audience than their competitors.

Therefore, one solution is to scrap the individual deals, and implement an-EPL style deal where money is shared more equally among the clubs, regardless of stature. In principle, this is a great idea; but in reality, near impossible to realize.

There are two companies with deals to broadcast La Liga football, Mediapro and Sogecable. In England, there are two broadcasters also: BSkyB and ESPN. However, the bulk of the matches are shown on BSkyB in a 5:1 ratio, meaning that for all intents and purposes, the English Premier League has one broadcaster.

The Premier League sells the television rights in packages, with each package containing 24 matches. As explained above, BSkyB own five of the six.

This is because BSkyB (with their financial muscle) outbid everyone else, with ESPN winning the remaining package by default, as no broadcaster can own all six packages. However, ESPN is broadcast to BSkyB customers. This singular deal is lauded as the best in the world, and the consensus is that both La Liga and Serie A should adopt a similar deal.

Unfortunately, with many broadcasters vying for the same deals, the economically smart thing to do is bid for individual teams. Separating the matches into packages rather than clubs would in theory reduce the gap, but would force the companies to bid higher and higher, and as Barcelona will attest, they [the broadcasters] don’t have the money. This forms my next reason.



Reason Two: The broadcasters have no money

Mediapro filed for bankruptcy in the summer of 2010, and a large chunk of the debt issues in Spanish Football is derived from Mediapro’s financial difficulties. Unless you want to eradicate Mediapro and Sogecable completely, the package deal is not viable. The reason for Barcelona’s debt is partly down to this Mediapro deal.

Deloitte say that broadcasting deals account for 44% of Barcelona’s total turnover. Mediapro could not meet their due payments in time, so the Blaugrana had to draw out a loan, thus creating long-term debt. This happened to many clubs, but unable to convince the banks of their financial solvency, many had to go without entirely, subsequently not paying the players. This led to a strike, and unbelievably, led to calls for a better TV deal.

From what?

The companies who would constitute the new deal are the exact same ones who cannot pay the clubs in the first place. A new deal would promise more money to each club, but it would not deliver the vast majority of it.

However, Sogecable (now called PRISA TV)is still paying its clubs. Real Madrid recorded a profit in the past financial year, and this was down to the TV revenue they actually received. As I alluded to earlier, Barcelona were forced into debt by Mediapro. Could Sogecable become the Spanish equivalent of BSkyB?

Highly doubtful.

Their operating income in 2007 (the earliest figures I could find) was €176.2 million (roughly 1/10 of BSkyB), and given the World Economic Crisis, one can only assume that Sogecable was hit just as hard as the rest of the world. Assuming that they have a similar operating income at this point in time, they could not afford to take on the TV deals for the rest of the league, let alone pay each team more than they currently stand to receive.

For a singular deal to occur there would have to be a new company with financial muscle like BSkyB (perhaps even BSkyB itself).



Reason Three: It would come at the expense of Spain’s UEFA co-efficient

Any change in the much-maligned TV deal would come at the expense of Real Madrid and FC Barcelona. The system in place in England sees the best-paid team receive less than Valencia and Atletico Madrid, and such a change would immediately impact on the "Big Two". Slashing their broadcasting revenue in half would result in drastic changes, and would likely reverse the direction of transfers.

Currently, it is fair to say that no club is safe from Barcelona and Real Madrid. Arsenal captains Cesc Fabregas and Thierry Henry have moved to the Catalan club, while star players of years gone by for Manchester United have moved to Real Madrid (Cristiano Ronaldo and David Beckham). Any decrease in broadcasting revenue would ensure that the best English clubs had the financial power, and ultimately, this would provide success on the European stage.

This success would strengthen England’s world-best UEFA co-efficient; and negatively affect the Spanish one. This could lead to less UEFA Champions League places for La Liga, and the gap would be lessened in Spain, but a new gap would be created between Spain and England. Making the Spanish FA choose between a competitive league, and European success would be foolhardy.

While drastic, this collective deal could affect Spain’s co-efficient, and destroying the league’s foreign marketability by forgoing quality challengers for quantity will reduce potential all-round income.



Reason Four: Increased money is not a guarantee for success

Currently earning €62.2 million from broadcasting is Atletico Madrid, which places them at 19th in the world (see page 33). Being honest, Villarreal, Malaga, Sevilla are not likely to increase their respective TV-revenue to match even this benchmark. A collective deal would bring around €30-40 million in total for each of those sides, which is an improvement, but remains below the total Atletico currently generate.

Atletico Madrid did not challenge Barcelona or Real Madrid last season. In fact, they finished 34 points off second-place. Despite the money, they did not get close, so is it naive to think that other clubs would?

Yes, Barcelona and Madrid still get double of what Atletico did, but let’s be honest, the motivation for joining Real Madrid and FC Barcelona is not money. Cesc Fabregas took a pay cut. Javier Mascherano did as well. While it is hard to find examples of Real Madrid players doing the same, the main draw is the prestige and the almost guaranteed challenge for trophies, year in and year out.

Despite the financial incentive, many players have and would join the top two for the honour of wearing the famous shirt. It guarantees that their legacy will be remembered, improves their C.V. and gives them something to tell their grandchildren. Either Atletico should be doing better, or money does not guarantee anything, bringing me onto my next point...



Reason Five: Mismanagement of clubs outside the "Big Two"

Debt levels in La Liga have reached a collective €3.5 billion. That is higher than the Premier League, and any other league in the world. Despite the low turnover, clubs are clearly spending money they do not have. Valencia have debts of over €500 million; how does this happen?

Clearly, Spanish clubs are in need of a crash course in how to run a business.

Debt levels are getting higher by the day, and more importantly, interest-rates, are steadily increasing. However, eight clubs do not have a shirt sponsor. The easiest way to make money – and to build a world-wide brand – neglected, and for what? More debt of course!

Valencia have also decided to half-build a new stadium, the main source of their extra-ordinary debt, wasting upwards of €300 million. With clubs threatening to field weakened teams against Barca and Madrid, the marketability goes down the toilet. Who wants to watch a team that lost by five or more goals to their "challengers"?

Proposing a new TV deal is all well and good, but I fear that even that would be wasted with this incompetence.

Villarreal’s current TV-deal puts them level (give or take €100-200k) with Schalke and only €3 million behind Bayern Munich. The Bundesliga side pride themselves on financial solvency, and are reaping the rewards, though this financial well-being does not come through astronomical TV income. Other ways, such as reduced ticket prices to bring more fans, emphasis on youth development and efficient, cost-effective management negate the smaller income, and provide a product that is burgeoning.

I am not saying that Villarreal should reach the semi-finals of the Champions League like Schalke, but financial responsibility does not have to come at the cost of competitiveness.





Perhaps it is not the TV deal that needs a drastic change, but the upper echelons of the Spanish board-rooms do.

Well I am sorry if quoting a part someone thoughts to make a point gets you.
I'm not really

[Ted Hughes]

Well I am sorry if quoting a part someone thoughts to make a point gets you.
I'm not really

Ah, the medication is kicking in again.