1-6 was a wake up call - yeah yeah yeah

[Bridge'srightfoot]

Ted, I see what you mean about them scraping wins but does it really matter? A thumping 5-0 win gets you no more points than a scrappy 1-0. Since they lost to us they have beaten Everton and Swansea away which is not easy, especially Everton, we all know just how tough Goodison Park can be to play at so to go there after losing your last game 6-1 is impressive.
They are not playing great football but are still managing to scrap out wins and I hate to say it, but on balance they've probably had a slightly harder start to the season fixture wise than we have had.

In my opinion we do have the best squad in the PL who are more than capable of winning the league but I just can't be comfortable with the rags lurking!

[Blue Since 76]

Ted, I see what you mean about them scraping wins but does it really matter? A thumping 5-0 win gets you no more points than a scrappy 1-0. Since they lost to us they have beaten Everton and Swansea away which is not easy, especially Everton, we all know just how tough Goodison Park can be to play at so to go there after losing your last game 6-1 is impressive.
They are not playing great football but are still managing to scrap out wins and I hate to say it, but on balance they've probably had a slightly harder start to the season fixture wise than we have had.

In my opinion we do have the best squad in the PL who are more than capable of winning the league but I just can't be comfortable with the rags lurking!

Don't underestimate how bad Everton were that day. However we've both had very good starts. The rags are normally lurking at this stage of the season so the main thing is we have to keep on winning and try and build the gap. At some point we'll have some dodgy results so 5 points is nowhere near enough of a cushion. From rags I speak to, they've been poor so far but in any other season would be leading the pack with the points accumulated. Don't write them off but we are better than them. Whether we can show that in May remains to be seen

[Ted Hughes]

Instead of reading the fucking scores out & reading from the Ferguson family bible, how about watching the football & having an honest opinion on what you see ? Look at the game, is it quality ? If not FUCKING SAY SO.

Ask yourselves if the versions of Ferdinand, Giggs & Co are performing as well as you have seen them in recent times. Ask yourselves what you would think if it was City & not Utd who had produced the performances v Norwich, Sunderland, Basel etc & ask yourselves if it was any other team, would you have them down as potential champions from what you have seen.

If you say 'yes' you are telling lies. The only reson you are rating what they have done is because you have bought into the bullshit that is Manchester Utd. Unfortunately, a lot of opposing players have bought into the same shite & wait for them to score rather than just turning them over when they are struggling. That is their biggest strength, that people do exactly what some of you are doing; they look at the myth rather than playing the team on the pitch, which has been gradually dropping in standard for some time.

[Original Dub]

Instead of reading the fucking scores out & reading from the Ferguson family bible, how about watching the football & having an honest opinion on what you see ? Look at the game, is it quality ? If not FUCKING SAY SO.

Ask yourselves if the versions of Ferdinand, Giggs & Co are performing as well as you have seen them in recent times. Ask yourselves what you would think if it was City & not Utd who had produced the performances v Norwich, Sunderland, Basel etc & ask yourselves if it was any other team, would you have them down as potential champions from what you have seen.

If you say 'yes' you are telling lies. The only reson you are rating what they have done is because you have bought into the bullshit that is Manchester Utd. Unfortunately, a lot of opposing players have bought into the same shite & wait for them to score rather than just turning them over when they are struggling. That is their biggest strength, that people do exactly what some of you are doing; they look at the myth rather than playing the team on the pitch, which has been gradually dropping in standard for some time.

Spot on

[Dubciteh]

Instead of reading the fucking scores out & reading from the Ferguson family bible, how about watching the football & having an honest opinion on what you see ? Look at the game, is it quality ? If not FUCKING SAY SO.

Ask yourselves if the versions of Ferdinand, Giggs & Co are performing as well as you have seen them in recent times. Ask yourselves what you would think if it was City & not Utd who had produced the performances v Norwich, Sunderland, Basel etc & ask yourselves if it was any other team, would you have them down as potential champions from what you have seen.

If you say 'yes' you are telling lies. The only reson you are rating what they have done is because you have bought into the bullshit that is Manchester Utd. Unfortunately, a lot of opposing players have bought into the same shite & wait for them to score rather than just turning them over when they are struggling. That is their biggest strength, that people do exactly what some of you are doing; they look at the myth rather than playing the team on the pitch, which has been gradually dropping in standard for some time.

Does it matter how bad there performances are once they are grinding out results? For them to have played as bad as they have and still have the points haul they have is annoyingly impressive. one thing i have learned over the years is never write the cnuts off, i will only be satisfied once its mathematically impossible for them to catch us. I dont give a shit what there performances are like while they are getting results, i will only be happy when they stop getting results.

[mr_nool]

Instead of reading the fucking scores out & reading from the Ferguson family bible, how about watching the football & having an honest opinion on what you see ? Look at the game, is it quality ? If not FUCKING SAY SO.

Ask yourselves if the versions of Ferdinand, Giggs & Co are performing as well as you have seen them in recent times. Ask yourselves what you would think if it was City & not Utd who had produced the performances v Norwich, Sunderland, Basel etc & ask yourselves if it was any other team, would you have them down as potential champions from what you have seen.

If you say 'yes' you are telling lies. The only reson you are rating what they have done is because you have bought into the bullshit that is Manchester Utd. Unfortunately, a lot of opposing players have bought into the same shite & wait for them to score rather than just turning them over when they are struggling. That is their biggest strength, that people do exactly what some of you are doing; they look at the myth rather than playing the team on the pitch, which has been gradually dropping in standard for some time.

Does it matter how bad there performances are once they are grinding out results? For them to have played as bad as they have and still have the points haul they have is annoyingly impressive. one thing i have learned over the years is never write the cnuts off, i will only be satisfied once its mathematically impossible for them to catch us. I dont give a shit what there performances are like while they are getting results, i will only be happy when they stop getting results.

I agree with Dubciteh. We've been harping on about their decline for at least the last three years, but they still seem to be alive and kicking.You all might be right that they have turned to shit, but I choose not to believe it until I see it reflected in their results.

[Alex Sapphire]

Instead of reading the fucking scores out & reading from the Ferguson family bible, how about watching the football & having an honest opinion on what you see ? Look at the game, is it quality ? If not FUCKING SAY SO.

Ask yourselves if the versions of Ferdinand, Giggs & Co are performing as well as you have seen them in recent times. Ask yourselves what you would think if it was City & not Utd who had produced the performances v Norwich, Sunderland, Basel etc & ask yourselves if it was any other team, would you have them down as potential champions from what you have seen.

If you say 'yes' you are telling lies. The only reson you are rating what they have done is because you have bought into the bullshit that is Manchester Utd. Unfortunately, a lot of opposing players have bought into the same shite & wait for them to score rather than just turning them over when they are struggling. That is their biggest strength, that people do exactly what some of you are doing; they look at the myth rather than playing the team on the pitch, which has been gradually dropping in standard for some time.

Does it matter how bad there performances are once they are grinding out results? For them to have played as bad as they have and still have the points haul they have is annoyingly impressive. one thing i have learned over the years is never write the cnuts off, i will only be satisfied once its mathematically impossible for them to catch us. I dont give a shit what there performances are like while they are getting results, i will only be happy when they stop getting results.

I agree with Dubciteh. We've been harping on about their decline for at least the last three years, but they still seem to be alive and kicking.You all might be right that they have turned to shit, but I choose not to believe it until I see it reflected in their results.

amen

[Ted Hughes]

Instead of reading the fucking scores out & reading from the Ferguson family bible, how about watching the football & having an honest opinion on what you see ? Look at the game, is it quality ? If not FUCKING SAY SO.

Ask yourselves if the versions of Ferdinand, Giggs & Co are performing as well as you have seen them in recent times. Ask yourselves what you would think if it was City & not Utd who had produced the performances v Norwich, Sunderland, Basel etc & ask yourselves if it was any other team, would you have them down as potential champions from what you have seen.

If you say 'yes' you are telling lies. The only reson you are rating what they have done is because you have bought into the bullshit that is Manchester Utd. Unfortunately, a lot of opposing players have bought into the same shite & wait for them to score rather than just turning them over when they are struggling. That is their biggest strength, that people do exactly what some of you are doing; they look at the myth rather than playing the team on the pitch, which has been gradually dropping in standard for some time.

Does it matter how bad there performances are once they are grinding out results? For them to have played as bad as they have and still have the points haul they have is annoyingly impressive. one thing i have learned over the years is never write the cnuts off, i will only be satisfied once its mathematically impossible for them to catch us. I dont give a shit what there performances are like while they are getting results, i will only be happy when they stop getting results.

I agree with Dubciteh. We've been harping on about their decline for at least the last three years, but they still seem to be alive and kicking.You all might be right that they have turned to shit, but I choose not to believe it until I see it reflected in their results.

amen

It's the fucking performances I'm talking about, how many times do I have to say it ? Yes they have won some games, that cannot be denied & I have made no attempt to deny it. They have not been very good. Surely you people can see this or have you been so blinded by the bullshit machine that you can't make an appraisal of what you actually see on the pitch ?

All you're doing is repeating the same old shite you've heard Hansen, Fat Sam & Co trot out about "tahts ow yu wint leeg" no it fucking isn't!! That's how you win the league if nobody else is good enough to do better! Being out played by Norwich & Sunderland & Swansea isn't fucking impressive FFS! If it happens to us you won't be impressed you'll say WE WERE POOR. They didn't fucking GRIND OUT those resuts, they were half arsed, slow, unimaginitive & weak. Why are you giving them credit for that ? The idea is that WHEN you have an off day, you still win, not that you play poorly in most games and get away with it.

You lot are proof of why these fucking people can play like they did v Norwich & Sunderland & Swansea & have opposition players pissing chances up the wall, week in week out; because they believe the hype & are more nervous playing against this unbeatable machine. Even when City put fucking 6 past them, they've got you lot back on track by playing just as poorly as they did v us & getting credit for it. They have been no better at all but you're willing to ignore that because Sinclair missed an open net.

Watch their performance: if they play well; say so. If they are poor & lucky: SAY SO. Not "oo thi gownd owt another win thi did"

[brite blu sky]

Ted's point is perfectly valid, but it is like the age old argument of form v results. I agree completely with Ted but he may as well flog a dead horse because what needs to happen is for teams to wise up en masse and get stuck into the rags at the swamp and their own gaffes. We would see the fruits of that I am convinced. Until it happens though the 'Analise football only by results' brigade will always have a valid argument. When it does happen Ted can come back and have a big Told you so thread and the said brigade will switch position and start bleating that they always knew this was going to happen. ;)

[Ted Hughes]

Ted's point is perfectly valid, but it is like the age old argument of form v results. I agree completely with Ted but he may as well flog a dead horse because what needs to happen is for teams to wise up en masse and get stuck into the rags at the swamp and their own gaffes. We would see the fruits of that I am convinced. Until it happens though the 'Analise football only by results' brigade will always have a valid argument. When it does happen Ted can come back and have a big Told you so thread and the said brigade will switch position and start bleating that they always knew this was going to happen. ;)

My argument isn't that they won't get results, it's that they shouldn't be getting the results at present. If people keep letting them win, without cashing in, then sooner or later their confidence will come back & they will raise their game. That doesn't mean they are as good as they were, just that they can play better than they are doing now.

If you look at this season, if it wasn't for City; Spurs, Arsenal & Chelsea (3 of their only realistic challenges at home) turned up there & were worse than they have been for decades. All three main challengers basically handed them 9 points to kick start their season. That's the kind of pathetic opposition they have had as so called challengers for the title in recent years. If Utd dropped points on a weekend, they'd drop points & hand it back to them.

We are the only reason Utd aren't comfortably stumbling their way to another title.

[Dubciteh]

Instead of reading the fucking scores out & reading from the Ferguson family bible, how about watching the football & having an honest opinion on what you see ? Look at the game, is it quality ? If not FUCKING SAY SO.

Ask yourselves if the versions of Ferdinand, Giggs & Co are performing as well as you have seen them in recent times. Ask yourselves what you would think if it was City & not Utd who had produced the performances v Norwich, Sunderland, Basel etc & ask yourselves if it was any other team, would you have them down as potential champions from what you have seen.

If you say 'yes' you are telling lies. The only reson you are rating what they have done is because you have bought into the bullshit that is Manchester Utd. Unfortunately, a lot of opposing players have bought into the same shite & wait for them to score rather than just turning them over when they are struggling. That is their biggest strength, that people do exactly what some of you are doing; they look at the myth rather than playing the team on the pitch, which has been gradually dropping in standard for some time.

Does it matter how bad there performances are once they are grinding out results? For them to have played as bad as they have and still have the points haul they have is annoyingly impressive. one thing i have learned over the years is never write the cnuts off, i will only be satisfied once its mathematically impossible for them to catch us. I dont give a shit what there performances are like while they are getting results, i will only be happy when they stop getting results.

I agree with Dubciteh. We've been harping on about their decline for at least the last three years, but they still seem to be alive and kicking.You all might be right that they have turned to shit, but I choose not to believe it until I see it reflected in their results.

amen

It's the fucking performances I'm talking about, how many times do I have to say it ? Yes they have won some games, that cannot be denied & I have made no attempt to deny it. They have not been very good. Surely you people can see this or have you been so blinded by the bullshit machine that you can't make an appraisal of what you actually see on the pitch ?

All you're doing is repeating the same old shite you've heard Hansen, Fat Sam & Co trot out about "tahts ow yu wint leeg" no it fucking isn't!! That's how you win the league if nobody else is good enough to do better! Being out played by Norwich & Sunderland & Swansea isn't fucking impressive FFS! If it happens to us you won't be impressed you'll say WE WERE POOR. They didn't fucking GRIND OUT those resuts, they were half arsed, slow, unimaginitive & weak. Why are you giving them credit for that ? The idea is that WHEN you have an off day, you still win, not that you play poorly in most games and get away with it.

You lot are proof of why these fucking people can play like they did v Norwich & Sunderland & Swansea & have opposition players pissing chances up the wall, week in week out; because they believe the hype & are more nervous playing against this unbeatable machine. Even when City put fucking 6 past them, they've got you lot back on track by playing just as poorly as they did v us & getting credit for it. They have been no better at all but you're willing to ignore that because Sinclair missed an open net.

Watch their performance: if they play well; say so. If they are poor & lucky: SAY SO. Not "oo thi gownd owt another win thi did"

ted, i usually agree with 99% of what you say but i honestly don't get the above(btw is there really a need for all the f'ing?). There performances are shit yeah fine but it was same last year and they won the league. The key to winning the league from our point of view is getting the results they get while putting in the performances they put in, do you think we will be able to in your opinion? My point was that there performances means fuck all to me as long as they get results which they have been, if there performances do pick up and they continue to get results we could find it hard when we hit our inevitable sticky patch.

Ps the lines i have underlined is very condascending to people who disagree with you

[Ted Hughes]

Once again : I'm not saying they won't win fucking games!

You say I'm being condescending but I've got people saying "ah but they keep winning" I'n not saying they don't keep winning, I'm not saying they won't keep winning, I'm saying they're not been very good!

You say you don't care about their performances but then say it doesn't matter because they are 'grinding out' results. 'Grinding out' a result is not letting your oppo miss open nets & getting away with it, it's backs to the wall battling & keeping them out. You're giving them credit for something they haven't done & are in effect praising their performance. I don't see this kind of performance so far; they turn up, aren't very good & have been getting away with it. That's not what 'grinding out results' used to mean.

City at QPR was 'grinding out a result' we were below par, we fucked up, we battled like a bastard, scored some great goals & got 3 points. Utd didn't do that v Sunderland or Swansea,they stood about watching, ambled through the matches & got away with it.

Let me say this again: I'm not saying they won't win games or that they won't improve, I'm saying they haven't been very good & they've been getting gradually worse for years. If nobody will beat them; that's not their fault but it's about time somebody did.

[brite blu sky]

Ted's point is perfectly valid, but it is like the age old argument of form v results. I agree completely with Ted but he may as well flog a dead horse because what needs to happen is for teams to wise up en masse and get stuck into the rags at the swamp and their own gaffes. We would see the fruits of that I am convinced. Until it happens though the 'Analise football only by results' brigade will always have a valid argument. When it does happen Ted can come back and have a big Told you so thread and the said brigade will switch position and start bleating that they always knew this was going to happen. ;)

My argument isn't that they won't get results, it's that they shouldn't be getting the results at present. If people keep letting them win, without cashing in, then sooner or later their confidence will come back & they will raise their game. That doesn't mean they are as good as they were, just that they can play better than they are doing now.

If you look at this season, if it wasn't for City; Spurs, Arsenal & Chelsea (3 of their only realistic challenges at home) turned up there & were worse than they have been for decades. All three main challengers basically handed them 9 points to kick start their season. That's the kind of pathetic opposition they have had as so called challengers for the title in recent years. If Utd dropped points on a weekend, they'd drop points & hand it back to them.

We are the only reason Utd aren't comfortably stumbling their way to another title.

Yes I'm aware of that and agree with it.

In relation to some just looking at their results and it being hook line and sinker what the pundits bleat.. I would say that yes it looks like people are buying it, but I'd say it more that they have the same mentality.

If and when the rags lose the rub of the 'luck' you can bet your fucking mother-in-law that all the pundits and mouthpieces will 'suddenly' start coming out with 'It has been coming'... 'it has been on the cards' etc etc cliche cliche etc etc.

So it more of a basic mentality of stay in the safe zone of analisis and just go with what results are to back up any thoughts. Partly suppose because as we see in this thread and others recently it is very very difficult to frame an argument based on what you see as opposed to what the end result is. Personally i think that way is as weak as a dead wet fish, but hey who am i to argue with results!

[Ted Hughes]

Ted's point is perfectly valid, but it is like the age old argument of form v results. I agree completely with Ted but he may as well flog a dead horse because what needs to happen is for teams to wise up en masse and get stuck into the rags at the swamp and their own gaffes. We would see the fruits of that I am convinced. Until it happens though the 'Analise football only by results' brigade will always have a valid argument. When it does happen Ted can come back and have a big Told you so thread and the said brigade will switch position and start bleating that they always knew this was going to happen. ;)

My argument isn't that they won't get results, it's that they shouldn't be getting the results at present. If people keep letting them win, without cashing in, then sooner or later their confidence will come back & they will raise their game. That doesn't mean they are as good as they were, just that they can play better than they are doing now.

If you look at this season, if it wasn't for City; Spurs, Arsenal & Chelsea (3 of their only realistic challenges at home) turned up there & were worse than they have been for decades. All three main challengers basically handed them 9 points to kick start their season. That's the kind of pathetic opposition they have had as so called challengers for the title in recent years. If Utd dropped points on a weekend, they'd drop points & hand it back to them.

We are the only reason Utd aren't comfortably stumbling their way to another title.

Yes I'm aware of that and agree with it.

In relation to some just looking at their results and it being hook line and sinker what the pundits bleat.. I would say that yes it looks like people are buying it, but I'd say it more that they have the same mentality.

If and when the rags lose the rub of the 'luck' you can bet your fucking mother-in-law that all the pundits and mouthpieces will 'suddenly' start coming out with 'It has been coming'... 'it has been on the cards' etc etc cliche cliche etc etc.

So it more of a basic mentality of stay in the safe zone of analisis and just go with what results are to back up any thoughts. Partly suppose because as we see in this thread and others recently it is very very difficult to frame an argument based on what you see as opposed to what the end result is. Personally i think that way is as weak as a dead wet fish, but hey who am i to argue with results!

When we beat them 6-1 I was thinking "this is it, their confidence is shot, at last one of these wankers can turn up at OT & continue our work. I wonder who goes there next.." Steve bruce & Sunderland. Utd were on their knees in that game. It must be more than ten years since I've seen a Utd side so utterly devoid of confidence. All sunderland did was make sure they gave the ball back to Utd, when Utd gave it to them, misse a few sitters, scored an O.G. just before half time. If Utd had paid them, they couldn't have thrown the game any better. People are giving Utd credit for that performance. They were pathetic.

[brite blu sky]

Once again : I'm not saying they won't win fucking games!

You say I'm being condescending but I've got people saying "ah but they keep winning" I'n not saying they don't keep winning, I'm not saying they won't keep winning, I'm saying they're not been very good!

You say you don't care about their performances but then say it doesn't matter because they are 'grinding out' results. 'Grinding out' a result is not letting your oppo miss open nets & getting away with it, it's backs to the wall battling & keeping them out. You're giving them credit for something they haven't done & are in effect praising their performance. I don't see this kind of performance so far; they turn up, aren't very good & have been getting away with it. That's not what 'grinding out results' used to mean.

City at QPR was 'grinding out a result' we were below par, we fucked up, we battled like a bastard, scored some great goals & got 3 points. Utd didn't do that v Sunderland or Swansea,they stood about watching, ambled through the matches & got away with it.

Let me say this again: I'm not saying they won't win games or that they won't improve, I'm saying they haven't been very good & they've been getting gradually worse for years. If nobody will beat them; that's not their fault but it's about time somebody did.

That puts it very well, and it will be interesting if there still some who don't get it.

I'd say it also illustrates your point about people buying the myth thing; Just like the press and pundits, they will NEVER say that the rags just got lucky and are living dangerously, NO they will frame the language exactly as 'they ground out a win'.

That's a mechanism of propaganda and the more it is repeated the more it is believed by those who do not make the effort to work it out themselves.

To have City fans bleating it is disappointing in the extreme. But some people just look at results and refuse to look deeper, until the results change and then they very conveniently jump ship and get all knowing about stuff.

[Alex Sapphire]

Ted's point is perfectly valid, but it is like the age old argument of form v results. I agree completely with Ted but he may as well flog a dead horse because what needs to happen is for teams to wise up en masse and get stuck into the rags at the swamp and their own gaffes. We would see the fruits of that I am convinced. Until it happens though the 'Analise football only by results' brigade will always have a valid argument. When it does happen Ted can come back and have a big Told you so thread and the said brigade will switch position and start bleating that they always knew this was going to happen. ;)

My argument isn't that they won't get results, it's that they shouldn't be getting the results at present

is that you disagreeing with someone who agrees with you?

[Ted Hughes]

Ted's point is perfectly valid, but it is like the age old argument of form v results. I agree completely with Ted but he may as well flog a dead horse because what needs to happen is for teams to wise up en masse and get stuck into the rags at the swamp and their own gaffes. We would see the fruits of that I am convinced. Until it happens though the 'Analise football only by results' brigade will always have a valid argument. When it does happen Ted can come back and have a big Told you so thread and the said brigade will switch position and start bleating that they always knew this was going to happen. ;)

My argument isn't that they won't get results, it's that they shouldn't be getting the results at present

is that you disagreeing with someone who agrees with you?

No it's me trying to make absolutely sure another one of you lot doesn't read it & post yet again telling me they keep winning games, which would be more likely to trigger the face in that picture..

[Dubciteh]

Once again : I'm not saying they won't win fucking games!

You say I'm being condescending but I've got people saying "ah but they keep winning" I'n not saying they don't keep winning, I'm not saying they won't keep winning, I'm saying they're not been very good!

You say you don't care about their performances but then say it doesn't matter because they are 'grinding out' results. 'Grinding out' a result is not letting your oppo miss open nets & getting away with it, it's backs to the wall battling & keeping them out. You're giving them credit for something they haven't done & are in effect praising their performance. I don't see this kind of performance so far; they turn up, aren't very good & have been getting away with it. That's not what 'grinding out results' used to mean.

City at QPR was 'grinding out a result' we were below par, we fucked up, we battled like a bastard, scored some great goals & got 3 points. Utd didn't do that v Sunderland or Swansea,they stood about watching, ambled through the matches & got away with it.

Let me say this again: I'm not saying they won't win games or that they won't improve, I'm saying they haven't been very good & they've been getting gradually worse for years. If nobody will beat them; that's not their fault but it's about time somebody did.

Our versions of grinding out a result are different, my version(although possibly wrong) is not playing as well as you can but still winning, i believe this to be the case with them. I agree with what i think is the main point of your argument that teams feel afraid to have a proper go at them and concede defeat before they even get off the bus hence them being shit and still winning. My point that i was trying to make is that as long as they are getting the results they are a massive threat, the evidence suggests even if they continue to play shit they will still get the points so we need to make sure we don't drop any silly points.

[Ted Hughes]

Once again : I'm not saying they won't win fucking games!

You say I'm being condescending but I've got people saying "ah but they keep winning" I'n not saying they don't keep winning, I'm not saying they won't keep winning, I'm saying they're not been very good!

You say you don't care about their performances but then say it doesn't matter because they are 'grinding out' results. 'Grinding out' a result is not letting your oppo miss open nets & getting away with it, it's backs to the wall battling & keeping them out. You're giving them credit for something they haven't done & are in effect praising their performance. I don't see this kind of performance so far; they turn up, aren't very good & have been getting away with it. That's not what 'grinding out results' used to mean.

City at QPR was 'grinding out a result' we were below par, we fucked up, we battled like a bastard, scored some great goals & got 3 points. Utd didn't do that v Sunderland or Swansea,they stood about watching, ambled through the matches & got away with it.

Let me say this again: I'm not saying they won't win games or that they won't improve, I'm saying they haven't been very good & they've been getting gradually worse for years. If nobody will beat them; that's not their fault but it's about time somebody did.

Our versions of grinding out a result are different, my version(although possibly wrong) is not playing as well as you can but still winning, i believe this to be the case with them. I agree with what i think is the main point of your argument that teams feel afraid to have a proper go at them and concede defeat before they even get off the bus hence them being shit and still winning. My point that i was trying to make is that as long as they are getting the results they are a massive threat, the evidence suggests even if they continue to play shit they will still get the points so we need to make sure we don't drop any silly points.

The points I've been making are based on their performances, not their results or where they will finish the season. They used to be better than they are now. Imo they were a better side/squad last season than they are now & were worse then, than in the previous season. They were much much better the season(s) before, when they had Ronaldo, Tevez, Giggs & Scholes were younger etc.

I don't care if they'd won nothing then & won everything since, that would be down to the oppo not performing imo rather than them improving/maintaining standards. Utd have been gradually declining in standard for some years. If they still win the league, that means the oppo have been on the slide too (which they have) until us.

Chelsea & Arsenal know they aren't as good as they were & are trying to rebuild. Utd are in the same position & have to do the same, their fans know it, Ferguson knows it but when somebody mentions it, a load of people rush to defend them & start quoting statistics. It is bizarre.

[Original Dub]

Of course their team is worse than it has been for some time. I can see that on the pitch. How some of you can't is strange.