FFP Again

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Re: FFP Again

Postby mr_nool » Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:22 pm

Foreverinbluedreams wrote:
carl_feedthegoat wrote:
Dameerto wrote:
Duckman wrote:
dont Real and Barca owe tax money to Spain?


Real were in debt by 170m euros towards the end of last season but were upto date on their tax, Barca were 364m euros in debt with 48m of it being owed in tax (according to Sam Wallace, and before any transfer dealings and Spanish government wiping-the-slate-clean actions)


How the fuck are barca in debt when nearly all their players come from the youth set up? they must make billions on merchandise and home gates etc plus CL and the like......I dont understand.


Their massive wage bill would be one of the factors. They are currently the second highest salary payers in football after Real.

Here's Swiss Ramble's latest on FFP

http://swissramble.blogspot.co.uk/2012/ ... n.html?m=1

( sorry if already posted )


They've also made some poor purchases over the last years. They bought Ibrahimovic for 69 million euros and let him go for around 24.
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Re: FFP Again

Postby Michigan Blue » Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:27 pm

AG7 wrote:Club Atlético de Madrid (ESP)


So that's Falcao off to Real or Chelsea in January then.

Another "benefit" of the FFP stitch-up: so-called "smaller" teams being pressurised to sell their most valuable assets at knock-down prices to quickly balance the books.
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Re: FFP Again

Postby Wooders » Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:18 pm

Michigan Blue wrote:
AG7 wrote:Club Atlético de Madrid (ESP)


So that's Falcao off to Real or Chelsea in January then.

Another "benefit" of the FFP stitch-up: so-called "smaller" teams being pressurised to sell their most valuable assets at knock-down prices to quickly balance the books.


we should be in for him - fuck FFP
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Re: FFP Again

Postby ronk » Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:36 pm

This is great news for us: a subtle shift away from us (& PSG) and a move towards the real enemies, deadbeats.

Pay your debts on time and you'll be given another chance to get there. These are strong tactics from UEFA, withholding payment will energise many of these clubs and shore up the transfer system.

It's a lot of clubs to be punishing and this sets the groundwork for how to punish non-compliant clubs without going all the way to exclusion. Fine clubs and then take the money directly from their prize funds. Simple, effective. I can live with that, if it comes to that.

It also forces clubs to keep expenses on their books. 23 clubs in European competition, the issue was probably a small amount of money for most clubs. But they'll be quick about it in future.
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Re: FFP Again

Postby walshawblue » Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:03 am

A good article from Martin Samuel I know its from the fail but he tells it like it is.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/articl ... z26CnCW6u6
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Re: FFP Again

Postby Beeks » Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:04 am

He’s got a big mouth, Dave Whelan. Comes in handy on occasions, though. Like last week, when he used it to reveal the driving force behind the move to impose financial limitations on clubs in the Premier League.

Manchester United are the architects here. Who would have thought it? Whelan, as chairman of Wigan Athletic, supports the plan. Some smaller clubs’ owners do because they think it will mean spending less and lead to greater competition at the lower end. What did Whelan give as United’s motivation for such a game-changing move, however? An altruistic wish to safeguard club finances? The desire to move towards competitive equality? Not exactly.

‘I think Manchester City have shaken them up a little bit,’ said Whelan. Oh, Dave. Bigmouth strikes again. You’ve said the loud thing quiet and the quiet thing loud. People aren’t meant to know that. They must continue believing that football’s established elite want financial controls for the good of the game; not to maintain a cosy monopoly. If they realise that United fear City on the pitch, so must legislate them out of contention instead, the whole plan falls down.
Telling it straight: Dave Whelan (right) had some forthright views about financial limitations

Telling it straight: Dave Whelan (right) had some forthright views about financial limitations

It is increasingly tough at places like Wigan, we know that. Yet Manchester United don’t care about the little guys. David Gill, the chief executive, simply intends upping the drawbridge on the clubs challenging United’s supremacy. He wants one specific element of football finance — yearly profit — to be analysed and used as the marker.

Gill won’t lobby for other forms of debt to be considered because, thanks to the business models of the Glazer family and of Sheik Mansour, United are hundreds of millions of pounds in the red and City don’t owe a bean.

Various proposals are being considered and some club owners favour salary curbs. Not United. They can afford big salaries and want to keep it that way. City can match them, too, and more. It is this power that frightens their rivals. There was no talk of curbs when United were the Premier League’s biggest beasts, unopposed.

The new financial rules focus on one element of a balance sheet, as if that is the entire economic picture. And football in 2012 is a snapshot, a mere moment in time, some clubs are up, some are down, some are in flux. The clubs pushing hardest for controls are those who have the largest capacity stadiums already in place, Manchester United and Arsenal.
Manchester rivals: City's Sergio Aguero rocks United in last season's 6-1 drubbing at Old Trafford

Manchester rivals: City's Sergio Aguero rocks United in last season's 6-1 drubbing at Old Trafford

Why Liverpool would support such a measure, who knows? They are limited by the size of Anfield and behind many of their rivals commercially. Nobody heard about financial fair play from Arsenal when they were boxed in at Highbury.

And, if limitations on spending linked to revenue are introduced, how quickly can any club grow? An elite cabal would map the landscape in English football for decades.

Every club have at some time spent money they did not have. Manchester United started that way. In January 1902, Newton Heath had debts of £2,670 and were served with a winding-up order. Harry Stafford, the captain, recruited four local businessmen to invest £500 each and on April 24, Manchester United were born.

This may seem like ancient history, but there is not a club in existence who have not at some time used money that was not generated by the business to propel their advancement. One of the most outspoken critics of owner investment in Europe is Borussia Dortmund chief executive Hans-Joachim Watzke. Yet roughly a decade ago Dortmund received £1.6million to keep them afloat from — get this — Bayern Munich. The deal was so wholesome it has only just come to light.

Dortmund were close to being the Leeds United of the Bundesliga. Spending money they did not have almost killed them; yet it also brought great success initially. Now the club are financially solvent and on top again, was part of their vast and lucrative support not maintained by the days when Dortmund won trophies by flouting economic logic?

And is it therefore not the greatest hypocrisy now to campaign against clubs who use legitimate owner investment, without going into debt, when Dortmund benefited from a considerably more dubious practice?

The Premier League clubs will now consider the various regulatory proposals and a majority vote of 14 is required for change. First, they may wish to consider who is doing the proposing and why. Ask what’s in it for them. For Manchester United, that’s the bottom line, always.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/articl ... z26CnCW6u6
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Re: FFP Again

Postby walshawblue » Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:06 am

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Re: FFP Again

Postby london blue 2 » Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:05 am

That article is long overdue. Well done for having the balls to print it!
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Re: FFP Again

Postby Dameerto » Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:09 pm

As a journalist you'd think he would know that you refer to a club as SINGULAR not PLURAL. Interesting article though.
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Re: FFP Again

Postby gillie » Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:42 pm

The comments on that piece are nearly all from rags and yes you guessed it we are not worthy of our new status as they did it all fairly by only spending their generated money and we are owned by a "rich playboy"!
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Re: FFP Again

Postby john68 » Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:25 pm

The rags need educating about their financial heritage.
Their being in debt is merely them returning to their natural historical state.

Maybe one day, the sports media will actually tell the truth about their role in the coercion of UeFA, the threats to break away.
Then again...maybe not Mate.
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Re: FFP Again

Postby ronk » Wed Sep 12, 2012 5:58 pm

john68 wrote:The rags need educating about their financial heritage.
Their being in debt is merely them returning to their natural historical state.

Maybe one day, the sports media will actually tell the truth about their role in the coercion of UeFA, the threats to break away.
Then again...maybe not Mate.


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Re: FFP Again

Postby carl_feedthegoat » Sat Sep 15, 2012 10:23 pm

Pratini and the haters will not be pleased we will comply....

Manchester City to reveal losses trimmed by £60m in financial results
The Premier League champions are poised to wipe a third off of their English-record £197m deficit recorded last year as they remain on course to reduce debt to £80m by 2013
Manchester City are poised to announce a dramatic £60 million decrease in their financial losses this autumn, with a possible figure of £100m in total over the next 12 months, Goal.com has learned.

The Premier League champions are expected to wipe a third off of the £197m pre-tax loss recorded last year, the biggest ever deficit in English football history, in their forthcoming results.

The club are then set to curtail their losses by a similar amount at the end of 2013, which should trim the overall deficit to below the £100m mark and possibly even as low as £80m.

City have been trying to lessen their reliance on the extravagant funding of billionaire owner Sheikh Mansour over the last 12 months in order to meet Uefa’s Financial Fair Play (FFP) requirements.

The club will release their latest set of accounts in November, which is expected to record a considerably improved financial position in the 2011-12 season compared to the previous year.

The results will reflect the benefit of a record-breaking £40m-a-year sponsorship arrangement with Etihad Airways, the £60.6m prize money the club received for winning the Premier League plus the £26.5m from Uefa for their first year participating in the Champions League.

FFP allows losses to be capped at €45m [£35m] in total over the first three years - from 2011-2014 - with the 2011-12 season financial year the first to be monitored.

However, the Uefa break-even calculation is not the same as a club’s statutory accounts, with expenditure such as youth development, stadium infrastructure and community development not counting towards FFP.

City chiefs, who have admitted they face a severe challenge to get their finances in order to meet FFP, are keen to demonstrate to Uefa a downward trend in their losses.

Nevertheless, the forthcoming accounts include the period when City spent vast sums on the likes of £38m striker Sergio Aguero and £24m winger Samir Nasri.

New chief executive Ferran Soriano is keeping in close consultation with Uefa chiefs and before the end of next year the club expect the losses to be closer to £80m.

City were relatively restrained in the last transfer window, spending a net £23m on new players. The sums spent on arrivals such as Javi Garcia, Maicon and Scott Sinclair were offset by shipping out high earners such as Emmanuel Adebayor, Adam Johnson, Nigel De Jong and Roque Santa Cruz, activity that has saved around £20m a year in wages.
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Re: FFP Again

Postby john68 » Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:17 am

Thanks for finding that Carl, but if those figures are true, it is not as good the reporter would have us think. Nor is it anywhere near as good as I hoped.

The loss of £197M is a false figure. It contains unspecified one-off payments (thought to include Hughes's contract pay-off and other unspecified pone-off payments) that will not be included in the next figures. A more accurate figure for comparison reasons would only be £146M.
If, as is quoted, we have lowered the debt by £60M off the £197M to £137M, we have only really gained £9M. Considering that £40M from the Etihad campus has been added to our income, we have actually made a further operating loss of an extra £31M.
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Re: FFP Again

Postby john@staustell » Sun Sep 16, 2012 7:25 am

"New chief executive Ferran Soriano is keeping in close consultation with Uefa chiefs and before the end of next year the club expect the losses to be closer to £80m."

I think the most important point could be this. Soriano is one of the UEFA Old Boys network. We're in!
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Re: FFP Again

Postby Ted Hughes » Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:58 am

We are not about to get banned by UEFA. That is not our problem.

Our problem arises when Messi or similar comes on the market & all the top clubs, bar us, are allowed to bid.

That's what FFP is designed for & that's what we have to solve; we have to be able to spend money to stay at the top in the medium term, as everyone else will spend.
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Re: FFP Again

Postby Blue Since 76 » Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:17 am

Ted Hughes wrote:We are not about to get banned by UEFA. That is not our problem.

Our problem arises when Messi or similar comes on the market & all the top clubs, bar us, are allowed to bid.

That's what FFP is designed for & that's what we have to solve; we have to be able to spend money to stay at the top in the medium term, as everyone else will spend.


Swap Messi for Hazard, Martinez or Van Persie and their wage/agent demands and you're right. The next one will be Falcao in the next 12 months. We don't need every top player, clearly, but Mancini wanted them and, at least as far as Hazard and Martinez go, we refused to pay it which wouldn't have happened 12 months ago.

That could be down to reducing debt in the short term or it could have been down to showing others teams that we won't be ripped off.

I'm not convinced by the Goal.com figures. We've had a massive increase in turnover, so if the previous loss included one off figures, we must have dropped further. However, from the article it looks like they've speculated on the amount of increased income from published figures e.g. Premier League money and then just taken that off our published debt.
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Re: FFP Again

Postby Ted Hughes » Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:44 am

Blue Since 76 wrote:
Ted Hughes wrote:We are not about to get banned by UEFA. That is not our problem.

Our problem arises when Messi or similar comes on the market & all the top clubs, bar us, are allowed to bid.

That's what FFP is designed for & that's what we have to solve; we have to be able to spend money to stay at the top in the medium term, as everyone else will spend.


Swap Messi for Hazard, Martinez or Van Persie and their wage/agent demands and you're right. The next one will be Falcao in the next 12 months. We don't need every top player, clearly, but Mancini wanted them and, at least as far as Hazard and Martinez go, we refused to pay it which wouldn't have happened 12 months ago.

That could be down to reducing debt in the short term or it could have been down to showing others teams that we won't be ripped off.

I'm not convinced by the Goal.com figures. We've had a massive increase in turnover, so if the previous loss included one off figures, we must have dropped further. However, from the article it looks like they've speculated on the amount of increased income from published figures e.g. Premier League money and then just taken that off our published debt.


I think the Hazard/RVP situations are down to policy which would be in place irrespective of FFP. We did the same with Nasri & Yaya; refused to pay the agent's bungs.

I think we will do our best to be seen to comply with FFP so long as it doesn't interfere with our big plan but imo, if a player comes on the market & we decide he's worth huge money, we will pay it, & then it will get very interesting.
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Re: FFP Again

Postby ronk » Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:09 pm

john68 wrote:Thanks for finding that Carl, but if those figures are true, it is not as good the reporter would have us think. Nor is it anywhere near as good as I hoped.

The loss of £197M is a false figure. It contains unspecified one-off payments (thought to include Hughes's contract pay-off and other unspecified pone-off payments) that will not be included in the next figures. A more accurate figure for comparison reasons would only be £146M.
If, as is quoted, we have lowered the debt by £60M off the £197M to £137M, we have only really gained £9M. Considering that £40M from the Etihad campus has been added to our income, we have actually made a further operating loss of an extra £31M.


This year has its share of one off losses too, which is why we're expecting further improvements.
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Re: FFP Again

Postby Alex Sapphire » Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:52 pm

only two ways to reduce losses. Spend less and earn more.
The Goal.com article is just stating the bleeding obvious: that we made 60m more (may or may not be accurate)
Sponsorhsip, TV money and prize money all increased.

Then the issue is did we spend less as well? and if these "one off payments" were significant that will help, as will any reduced salaries from player sales. Question then is how much dod we spend on players in the period compared with last year.
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