Human rights

[Arjan Van Schotte]

Anyone looking in could say that our regimes are pretty poor in terms of human rights.

agreed, which is why i keep saying that if dave cameron bought al-ain, and i was an al-ain fan, i'd be pretty annoyed.

[Blue Since 76]

The rag owners have no control over the laws or policies of the their country. The majority of Americans don't even know who they are. They are more well known in England than they are over here.90% of NFL fans over here couldn't tell you who owns the Tampa Bay Buccaneers but I bet at least 90% of football fans in England could tell you who owned the rags. The answer is the same for both teams.

But if you disagree with America's policies, you could disagree with Americans owning British clubs. Sheikh Mansour doesn't run Abu Dhabi, albeit his family does. If he comes out and says he's all for torturing innocents I'd be offended. That his country does some unpleasant things just means he lives in a country somewhere on earth.

[Blue Since 76]

agreed, which is why i keep saying that if dave cameron bought al-ain, and i was an al-ain fan, i'd be pretty annoyed.

Would they be annoyed if David Cameron's nephew bought them? And I doubt they'd be that bothered. If he bought Baghdad Albion, I could understand them being more upset.

[Arjan Van Schotte]

But if you disagree with America's policies, you could disagree with Americans owning British clubs. Sheikh Mansour doesn't run Abu Dhabi, albeit his family does.

and there's the difference. do i blame every emirati for the actions of their unelected govt? No. Do i blame the unelected govt? Yes.

[Beefymcfc]

Just to give you a wider reference, check out the group that call themselves Al-Islah and who they are part of.

were the UAE 5 all part of al-islah?

Why were the trials held in secret? Why were accredited NGO officials refused entry? Why was the father of an emirati accused jailed for 10 months for an innocuous tweet about the trial?

What do you think of the other issues? Indentured labour, the case of sheikh issa, routine torture?

So, the father of an Emarati was given a sentence for going against the regualtions, is that not going against the ideals that are being preached?

I don't deny they've got issues, just like us or any other government, but these issues surround what happened with the 94 (what was it, 56 found guilty?) and the way Conn has interpreted it.

Now, you obviously have an understanding so what are your thoughts on the Muslim Brotherhood and how their underground groups come to the fore when countries have problems?

[Arjan Van Schotte]

agreed, which is why i keep saying that if dave cameron bought al-ain, and i was an al-ain fan, i'd be pretty annoyed.

Would they be annoyed if David Cameron's nephew bought them? And I doubt they'd be that bothered. If he bought Baghdad Albion, I could understand them being more upset.

David Cameron's nephew wouldn't be investing the family's sovereign wealth fund, and he'd have no power under our constitution.

[Arjan Van Schotte]

Just to give you a wider reference, check out the group that call themselves Al-Islah and who they are part of.

were the UAE 5 all part of al-islah?

Why were the trials held in secret? Why were accredited NGO officials refused entry? Why was the father of an emirati accused jailed for 10 months for an innocuous tweet about the trial?

What do you think of the other issues? Indentured labour, the case of sheikh issa, routine torture?

So, the father of an Emarati was given a sentence for going against the regualtions, is that not going against the ideals that are being preached?

I don't deny they've got issues, just like us or any other government, but these issues surround what happened with the 94 (what was it, 56 found guilty?) and the way Conn has interpreted it.

Now, you obviously have an understanding so what are your thoughts on the Muslim Brotherhood and how their underground groups come to the fore when countries have problems?

ok, so, again, forget this specific article. What about all the other issues listed?

[Beefymcfc]

Just to give you a wider reference, check out the group that call themselves Al-Islah and who they are part of.

were the UAE 5 all part of al-islah?

Why were the trials held in secret? Why were accredited NGO officials refused entry? Why was the father of an emirati accused jailed for 10 months for an innocuous tweet about the trial?

What do you think of the other issues? Indentured labour, the case of sheikh issa, routine torture?

So, the father of an Emarati was given a sentence for going against the regualtions, is that not going against the ideals that are being preached?

I don't deny they've got issues, just like us or any other government, but these issues surround what happened with the 94 (what was it, 56 found guilty?) and the way Conn has interpreted it.

Now, you obviously have an understanding so what are your thoughts on the Muslim Brotherhood and how their underground groups come to the fore when countries have problems?

ok, so, again, forget this specific article. What about all the other issues listed?

OK, so we forget about the issues in hand and what the state is trying to achieve just because it suits the average intellect?

Now, please state all these other issues? AD have policies in place that deal with these exact issues yet Conn mentions that the state is 'a Black hole' leading people to believe that AD have no legislation in place. And for the rest, it's just blah, blah, blah isn't it mate, no matter how they are trying to put things in place.

As for the Sheikh, at least he was charged and went through the due process instead of it never being seen. The country, and the individual have learned from that process and understand that it can't happen again. Can you imagine our Queen or the Prime Minister going to court?

They have their rules, we have ours. Are you suggesting that you, or I, tell a country how it should be run?

Out of interest, can you tell me what evidence there is to say these people were tortured or are they just alledged?

[Arjan Van Schotte]

OK, so we forget about the issues in hand and what the state is trying to achieve just because it suits the average intellect?

I don't know what the "average intellect" is, but i've been suggesting that the issues are wider than just this one.

Now, please state all these other issues?

I did, in the post you quoted.

AD have policies in place that deal with these exact issues yet Conn mentions that the state is 'a Black hole' leading people to believe that AD have no legislation in place.

I've actually never heard of conn before, and i didn't post the link. But there's strong evidence that the UAE ignores even it's own laws.

As for the Sheikh, at least he was charged and went through the due process instead of it never being seen.

yes, and he was found not guilty of a videoptaped , brutal assault on someone. Because he "may have been on drugs". Massive LOLZ

They have their rules, we have ours. Are you suggesting that you, or I, tell a country how it should be run?

I'm suggesting that we may take an interest in our owners.

Out of interest, can you tell me what evidence there is to say these people were tortured or are they just alledged?

According to a large number of independent sources, prisoners are routinely tortured in the UAE. I can provide thousands of links if you like, but you can just google "torture UAE" if you like.

[Blue Since 76]

David Cameron's nephew wouldn't be investing the family's sovereign wealth fund, and he'd have no power under our constitution.

We've seen in Egypt that elections don't necessarily bring about better conditions for the citizens. Middle eastern countries are also having issues with radicals in both sides - those who want freedom and democracy and those that would want to turn it into an extreme Islamic state.

They have a fine line to tread and I think it's right that NGOs prod them into the right sort of direction, but need to be careful they're not appearing to be interfering. I'd say don't judge them in where they are now, judge them on what they've achieved in the last 40 or so years.

In similar timescales, the UK has stopped capital punishment. However, we've also brought in a lot of big brother type technologies. Whilst it may not be a problem with the current regime, it's a worry what a government could do with the powers they now have. Would Amnesty International think we've got better or worse? Honest question, as I don't know. But these things are never black and white.

As for David Conn'a article, it almost appears that he and Colin Schindler before him have some sort of problem with our owners. I hope it's just that they passionately believe that the modern game has too much money in it and, being fans, they use their own club as an example.

[Arjan Van Schotte]

David Cameron's nephew wouldn't be investing the family's sovereign wealth fund, and he'd have no power under our constitution.

We've seen in Egypt that elections don't necessarily bring about better conditions for the citizens. Middle eastern countries are also having issues with radicals in both sides - those who want freedom and democracy and those that would want to turn it into an extreme Islamic state.

They have a fine line to tread and I think it's right that NGOs prod them into the right sort of direction, but need to be careful they're not appearing to be interfering. I'd say don't judge them in where they are now, judge them on what they've achieved in the last 40 or so years.

In similar timescales, the UK has stopped capital punishment. However, we've also brought in a lot of big brother type technologies. Whilst it may not be a problem with the current regime, it's a worry what a government could do with the powers they now have. Would Amnesty International think we've got better or worse? Honest question, as I don't know. But these things are never black and white.

As for David Conn'a article, it almost appears that he and Colin Schindler before him have some sort of problem with our owners. I hope it's just that they passionately believe that the modern game has too much money in it and, being fans, they use their own club as an example.

can't disagree with any of that!

[Beefymcfc]

I'm sorry mate, it's not worth the mither.

I'll finish with this. If the NF wanted to take over the economical and political issues of this country (any country), would you be happy?

[brite blu sky]

I'm sorry mate, it's not worth the mither.

That is exactly what I said to him in the other thread he started. He just goes round in circles harping on about copying Notlob fans or somat.
So far his best idea is to unfurl a big banner.

It is a shame as he is probs a decent lad and we can all understand the basic point being made, wailing about it in this way and trying to pretend a moral superiority with others that take a more sanguine view just makes him come across as another self righteous moaner.

Was it not Anna Connell who used football to begin a process of improving the hopes and aspirations of the oppressed ?
Seems like good inspirational starting point, as our focus here is football.
Did women have the vote in the UK by that time ? Do you think she had a go at the government or unfurled a banner on Hyde Rd ?


Over the course of history around the world how many times has football changed the reality of peoples lives ?
What are the most dramatic changes to peoples reality that can be accredited to football ?

From wikipedia

The Saudi Arabia women's national football team would be the national team representing the kingdom in international football. However, the team does not yet exist because of influence of religious leaders in Saudi Arabia and systematic discrimination against women's sport, active opposition of political leaders and sport administrators. International pressure has come to bear on the country to field a women's team, and FIFA now allows the hijab to be worn in competition.[1] A meeting at the College of Business Administration in Jeddah was seen as a possible first step in a team eventually being created.
Despite a lack of official support for a national team and women's football in general, women have self-organised their own teams and play games out of the sight of men. Created in 2006, King's United women football club was the first women's football club in the country

[Cocacolajojo1]

It seems to me there are two issues, perhaps even three, going around in this thread and that might be the reason why the discussion is going around in circles.

1. Are we, as representatives of our own countries, allowed to complain about what other nations do and do we have the right to tell them what to do?

2. Considering the massive infringements in civil rights in western society over hte last decade or so, is it throwing bricks in glass-houses when someone finds punishments and legal routines bad, just because from our perspective they are archaic. I.E. "we got rid of stoning, why can't you?" "We have democracy, why can't you?"

3. Does anything of this has to do with football?

Having digressed so much in this thread, I'll try to put it short.

I see a big problem in saying that we can't complain about some other society's rules and practices. 1 because it simplifies our culture (there are a lot of things about western culture that I don't agree with and also find abhorrent but that has little to do with football and this forum) and 2, it simplifies the other culture. It's not like every person living in the UAE are the same and have the same values and it also portrays the citizens of UAE in agreement with their government, which I believe many are not.

I wouldn't say that just becacuse there are two bad things that doesn't make both of them ok. If a school has a massive drug problem and a massive problem with bully's, you try to fix both and not go "well, you're a bit pudgy and my mother's a crack addict so I'm not gonna help you." There are civil-rights problems in the west and there are democratic and legal problems in the UAE. As Ant put very eloquently, there are pros and cons with a dictatorship and it becomes even more tricky to be normative when the dictatorship is (at least relatively) astutely run. Cuba is another example of a dictarship that worked (again relatively) well for many years until the SOviet Union collapsed.

But even though there's a multitude of problems in our own society and other societies, it doesn't mean that it's an all or nothing situation. One doesn't have to care for every cause or no cause. I'd say that's a thinking and a rhetoric that originally stems from layers of society that benefit from the status-quo. That'd be my guess anyway. One can tackle a problem because he comes into contact with that problem and go from there. I wouldn't say any person that has done good in his or her life is bad person because during his or her life, that person neglected other causes that could also be served.

We came into contact with this ruling family through football. We could use football to show this family that we will encourage them and cheer for them if they do certain things and that we want them to use football for something good. I'd say protests is a long way down the line (if ever desirable) after having tried to actually communicate with the board of MCFC and try to get constructive solutions into place. I really liked BBS's idea about an footballing exchange between the UAE and Manchester, sending both boys and girls in the both directions.

Why couldn't the supporter branches and sites like this sign petitions or send representatives or I don't know, everyone just writes a email and makes enquiries about how MCFC are planning to be a force of democracy or civil rights in the UAE?

I digressed.

[Dubaimancityfan]

I'm sorry mate, it's not worth the mither.

That is exactly what I said to him in the other thread he started. He just goes round in circles harping on about copying Notlob fans or somat.
So far his best idea is to unfurl a big banner.

It is a shame as he is probs a decent lad and we can all understand the basic point being made, wailing about it in this way and

trying to pretend a moral superiority

with others that take a more sanguine view just makes him come across as another self righteous moaner.

LIKE !

[Arjan Van Schotte]

wailing about it in this way

who's "wailing"? I thought we were having a discussion - and putting different points of view across?

and trying to pretend a moral superiority

where? don't remember feeling superior - i thought i accepted i was in the minority?!

i find it strange that city seem to have almost unquestioning support for a middle east dictator, you don't. I can live with that. Gareth.

[Beefymcfc]

wailing about it in this way

who's "wailing"? I thought we were having a discussion - and putting different points of view across?

and trying to pretend a moral superiority

where? don't remember feeling superior - i thought i accepted i was in the minority?!

i find it strange that city seem to have almost unquestioning support for a middle east dictator, you don't. I can live with that. Gareth.

I don't think it's unquestioning support, as you say mate, more of understanding that they are going in the right direction.

However, on this particular report that Conn writes about, they've got my unquestioning support. They were right to deal with it early and not let the people who were after gaining some kind of control, win.

[Arjan Van Schotte]

wailing about it in this way

who's "wailing"? I thought we were having a discussion - and putting different points of view across?

and trying to pretend a moral superiority

where? don't remember feeling superior - i thought i accepted i was in the minority?!

i find it strange that city seem to have almost unquestioning support for a middle east dictator, you don't. I can live with that. Gareth.

I don't think it's unquestioning support, as you say mate, more of understanding that they are going in the right direction.

However, on this particular report that Conn writes about, they've got my unquestioning support. They were right to deal with it early and not let the people who were after gaining some kind of control, win.

i can agree to differ beefy, no problem.

[Beefymcfc]

wailing about it in this way

who's "wailing"? I thought we were having a discussion - and putting different points of view across?

and trying to pretend a moral superiority

where? don't remember feeling superior - i thought i accepted i was in the minority?!

i find it strange that city seem to have almost unquestioning support for a middle east dictator, you don't. I can live with that. Gareth.

I don't think it's unquestioning support, as you say mate, more of understanding that they are going in the right direction.

However, on this particular report that Conn writes about, they've got my unquestioning support. They were right to deal with it early and not let the people who were after gaining some kind of control, win.

i can agree to differ beefy, no problem.

Well, I'll agree with that mate, that's what debate is about.

PS. City are great ;-)

[ant london]

I think it's pretty clear that AvS is not wailing in any way here. He has some pretty principled views on a number of life's issues which, some I share some I don't and some I probably disagree with but...he has integrity in what he thinks and how he lives in line with or expresses those views.

In that light I think he would think that, in the context of city and those beliefs, he would be a bit of a hypocrite if he didnt voice his (and the inherent potential) issues re these events and the underlying issues in the UAE....either/and he thinks that the debate is worth putting on the table.

That doesn't make him a moaner or a bleater or a wailer

Maybe most on here really don't care about what happens in the UAE (or other countries) full stop. Others may care in principle but would never agitate protest or behave in any kind of militant manner. Some might not believe the reports. Others may care about the issues but their feelings for City (and the underlying fear that criticising the UAE regime "within" City might lead the owners to one day pull the plug and walk away) enable or compel them to not "agree" with others who have issues with this.

Whatever your position is, doesn't mean that those who do want to talk about it shouldn't be able to. These are issues worthy of discussion.