Our Midfield

[Douglas Higginbottom]

Quite simply we are defending too deeply and with too many bodies.
Our back line defends our area with our midfield closely attached to them. The gap to the forwards is stretched and they are left isolated.
Time and time again we clear the ball into empty space, simply giving up possession, putting ourselves immediately back under pressure.
This tactic may be fine when we are holding on to a lead against some yop side away but is nonsense when we are losing and need to move the game upfield.
In that respect, it doesn't matter what creativity we put in midfield. Whoever it may be would be too deep to be really as potentially effective as they should be.

A defensive midfield player sits just in front of the back 4. Is it the role of the back 4 to determine how deep they sit or the midfield player? I think it's the back 4's job to do that and for me they sit too deep thus Nigel and co needing to sit close to them are also too deep which creates the gap between the front players.

I know pre Mancini that is something being worked on and NDJ was asked to try to drag the defence up. I think Toure as captain and NDJ need to focus on this if we are to get the right balance between attack and defence irrespective of who our individual midfield players are.

[brite blu sky]

Spot on Doug.

We can all see it too deep. There are a lot of people quite rightly thinking that Kompany could make the difference here..

for me we have no composure in defence or in the center of the park, and that is probably mostly the consequence of being too deep but partly a weakness of some key players.. so it has the look of a bit of a viscous circle.

[Im_Spartacus]

Its too crowded in the middle.
Even someone with Jonno's class would struggle.

The solution there is to drop one or both of De Jong or Pat.

Get a creative lad next to M Johnno and lets so how we go with two wingers.

Anyway,im gonna cry soon he is out for the rest of the season so get Barry and Superman set up there.

Well, he is in for a 3 match ban now so no need to worry about Paddy turning out for a while

[john68]

Great question Doug mate, but one that I would have thought you may have been far better qualified to answer than ask. I can only refer to your training reports, whilst you get to write em...:-)

After reading your training reports about the way Mancini leads the team around the pitch and his emphasis on defensive shape, I would be suprised if he didn't also instruct them on how deep he wanted them to defend in different match situations.
After conversations with a mate of mine who is a qualified coach, I am also pretty certain he has instructed the full backs to tuck in closer to the central defenders too.
The philosophy of cattenaccio is to give up midfield, defend the area and trust your keeper to cope with long shots.

This would lead me to think that Mancini is in control of what is happening at the back, though there is the possibility that during the fluidity of the game, our defence is allowing itself to be pushed back and maybe not following his instructions.
I also believe that to increase the efficiency of the defensive unit, Mancini had instructed our defensive midfielders to tuck in tighter to the back line.

If I am right...and I may not be, this deep line is being deliberately set as a strategy for defence by Mancini.

[Im_Spartacus]

Great question Doug mate, but one that I would have thought you may have been far better qualified to answer than ask. I can only refer to your training reports, whilst you get to write em...:-)

After reading your training reports about the way Mancini leads the team around the pitch and his emphasis on defensive shape, I would be suprised if he didn't also instruct them on how deep he wanted them to defend in different match situations.
After conversations with a mate of mine who is a qualified coach, I am also pretty certain he has instructed the full backs to tuck in closer to the central defenders too.
The philosophy of cattenaccio is to give up midfield, defend the area and trust your keeper to cope with long shots.

This would lead me to think that Mancini is in control of what is happening at the back, though there is the possibility that during the fluidity of the game, our defence is allowing itself to be pushed back and maybe not following his instructions.
I also believe that to increase the efficiency of the defensive unit, Mancini had instructed our defensive midfielders to tuck in tighter to the back line.

If I am right...and I may not be, this deep line is being deliberately set as a strategy for defence by Mancini.

No doubt about the fullbacks, those first few games were downright scary when we kept letting the fullback/winger have acres, particularly the United home game.

I think the deep defensive line is fine, but - and this is the big but - for the system you describe, I would imagine you need to have 2 players who are mobile enough to influence the game in every dimension between the two boxes. The players ALL need to have it all in their locker, passing, creativity, defensively, pace etc.

Perhaps this is the reason we have such a deep lying midfield - We have Stevie Ireland who could fit all those, but he seems a bit lost with the role, Barry is too slow, De-Jong can only pass sideways, and Vieira....well who knows. With all these one dimensional players in our midfield, they maybe are so worried about going forwards because their poor and unimaginative distribution means more than likely they run down dead ends and we will lose posession, and they then arent athletic enough to make the ground up to get back - perhaps the reason for looking at Mariga and Gago - who I believe from what I have read (famous last words) definately would have fit the bill for that sort of role.

Remember Mancini seemed particularly scathing of Hughes about spending £200m and having no options in midfield

[Pretty Boy Lee]

It's simple the Stokes of the world should see this

SWP...Ireland...Barry...AJ

They go long all day anyway which cuts Nige out constantly and we can't counter attack with him and his French Grandad next to him.

[john68]

John...apologies for taking my time to get back.

There are three usual ways to break out of a deep defence.
(a)...to lump the ball up to the forwards.
(b)...To push the ball wide and get it down the line quickly for the wide man to feed the forwards. We used to do this often and to great effect in the Summerbee, Lee and Coleman era. The rags used this when they had Kanchelskis.
(c)...To use short, quick accurate passing to move upfield. This allows the team to move forward as a unit.

I point that worries me about lying too deep is that by freely yielding the space in front of our box to the opposition, we tend to clear the ball and have it immediately shoved back at us, this has created almost panic stations., if not with the players, certainly with the crowd. We suffered that during the CC semi final when the rags almost laid siege to our goal and also last night, Glen Whelan just seemed to pick up all the scraps (unchallenged) and set up Stoke time and time again.
For set pieces last Saturday, we posted SWP and Irealnd on the edge of the box for the 2nd phase ball.

a further observation is that when we often try to pass our way from defence, we do so too slowly, allowing the opposition to get behind the ball and to set their defence against us.
When we pass out too slowly and are harried, as we were by Hull and Stoke, we tend to pass too cautiously. Often taking a safe option by passing crossfield or backwards...even as far as Given. We do this even when there has been opportunities to put a defence splitting pass forward.
We seem to be playing far too cautiously and far too defensively.
Those last points are only my own observations and I welcome a debate on it.

[brite blu sky]

John...apologies for taking my time to get back.

There are three usual ways to break out of a deep defence.
(a)...to lump the ball up to the forwards.
(b)...To push the ball wide and get it down the line quickly for the wide man to feed the forwards. We used to do this often and to great effect in the Summerbee, Lee and Coleman era. The rags used this when they had Kanchelskis.
(c)...To use short, quick accurate passing to move upfield. This allows the team to move forward as a unit.

I point that worries me about lying too deep is that by freely yielding the space in front of our box to the opposition, we tend to clear the ball and have it immediately shoved back at us, this has created almost panic stations., if not with the players, certainly with the crowd. We suffered that during the CC semi final when the rags almost laid siege to our goal and also last night, Glen Whelan just seemed to pick up all the scraps (unchallenged) and set up Stoke time and time again.
For set pieces last Saturday, we posted SWP and Irealnd on the edge of the box for the 2nd phase ball.

a further observation is that when we often try to pass our way from defence, we do so too slowly, allowing the opposition to get behind the ball and to set their defence against us.
When we pass out too slowly and are harried, as we were by Hull and Stoke, we tend to pass too cautiously. Often taking a safe option by passing crossfield or backwards...even as far as Given. We do this even when there has been opportunities to put a defence splitting pass forward.
We seem to be playing far too cautiously and far too defensively.
Those last points are only my own observations and I welcome a debate on it.

i agree with a lot of that so cant rellay give you a debate..

a further observation is that when we often try to pass our way from defence, we do so too slowly

virtually always so slow it beggers belief. Shay could change this to soem extent, but it seems a team wide problem

point that worries me about lying too deep is that by freely yielding the space in front of our box to the opposition

dont think the rest of what you worte is the major issue, but freely yeilding space certainly cannot be on the agenda of a serious team in english football, again it is a serious problem.

i suppose the debate comes on how we get out of these habits?

[Im_Spartacus]

John...apologies for taking my time to get back.

There are three usual ways to break out of a deep defence.
(a)...to lump the ball up to the forwards.
(b)...To push the ball wide and get it down the line quickly for the wide man to feed the forwards. We used to do this often and to great effect in the Summerbee, Lee and Coleman era. The rags used this when they had Kanchelskis.
(c)...To use short, quick accurate passing to move upfield. This allows the team to move forward as a unit.

a further observation is that when we often try to pass our way from defence, we do so too slowly, allowing the opposition to get behind the ball and to set their defence against us.
When we pass out too slowly and are harried, as we were by Hull and Stoke, we tend to pass too cautiously. Often taking a safe option by passing crossfield or backwards...even as far as Given. We do this even when there has been opportunities to put a defence splitting pass forward.
We seem to be playing far too cautiously and far too defensively.
Those last points are only my own observations and I welcome a debate on it.

I noticed an awful lot at the home games even under Hughes that Barry and De Jong in particular tend to pick out a short pass, then pretty much stop, or unbelievably - move into a position where the player receiving the ball cannot possibly play the ball back to them. Barry even does this when someone else is in possession, almost as if he doesn't want the ball.

Also, if the ball is passed out wide, neither man makes an attempt to make a move forward to give the likes of SWP an option inside - which thinking about it, could also explain SWP's knack of running down dead ends this season - as his only outlet is one forward, who invariably has two men marking him

Its almost as if the ball is a hot potato for these two, and it has frustrated the hell out of me for months now - I think your description of the 3 ways of bringing if forwards pretty much fits in with my observations

a: seems to be the default, because we quickly get frustrated that we cant do "b" or "c" well enough
b: we dont support the wide man from midfield
c: see points about Barry / De Jong above.

All of which point to the need for a Mariga / Gago, being mobile enough to cover the ground up and down the pitch, which Barry and De Jong seem very unwilling to do. Im going to revisit this after the Liverpool game to see if it happens again, but I urge anyone to watch particularly what Barry does once he passes the ball or when we are in possession in midfield.

[brite blu sky]

John...apologies for taking my time to get back.

There are three usual ways to break out of a deep defence.
(a)...to lump the ball up to the forwards.
(b)...To push the ball wide and get it down the line quickly for the wide man to feed the forwards. We used to do this often and to great effect in the Summerbee, Lee and Coleman era. The rags used this when they had Kanchelskis.
(c)...To use short, quick accurate passing to move upfield. This allows the team to move forward as a unit.

a further observation is that when we often try to pass our way from defence, we do so too slowly, allowing the opposition to get behind the ball and to set their defence against us.
When we pass out too slowly and are harried, as we were by Hull and Stoke, we tend to pass too cautiously. Often taking a safe option by passing crossfield or backwards...even as far as Given. We do this even when there has been opportunities to put a defence splitting pass forward.
We seem to be playing far too cautiously and far too defensively.
Those last points are only my own observations and I welcome a debate on it.

I noticed an awful lot at the home games even under Hughes that Barry and De Jong in particular tend to pick out a short pass, then pretty much stop, or unbelievably - move into a position where the player receiving the ball cannot possibly play the ball back to them. Barry even does this when someone else is in possession, almost as if he doesn't want the ball.

Also, if the ball is passed out wide, neither man makes an attempt to make a move forward to give the likes of SWP an option inside - which thinking about it, could also explain SWP's knack of running down dead ends this season - as his only outlet is one forward, who invariably has two men marking him

Its almost as if the ball is a hot potato for these two, and it has frustrated the hell out of me for months now - I think your description of the 3 ways of bringing if forwards pretty much fits in with my observations

a: seems to be the default, because we quickly get frustrated that we cant do "b" or "c" well enough
b: we dont support the wide man from midfield
c: see points about Barry / De Jong above.

Im going to revisit this after the Liverpool game to see if it happens again, but I urge anyone to watch particularly what Barry does once he passes the ball or when we are in possession in midfield.

i would agree with this in terms of Barry and Nige and lack of support moving out of our half. i have been saying that we lack anyone with real on the ball composure in the middle of the park, niether DeJong or Barry have that ( yet ). We are crying out for a M. Johnson type player.

As for the 3 ways 68 suggested, i would add a kind of 4th... which is basically a freestyle mix of his b) and c) approaches, less traditional lets say but more creative and unpredictable in effect. Good modern teams seem to have this b,c mix

(b)...To push the ball wide and get it down the line quickly for the wide man to feed the forwards. We used to do this often and to great effect in the Summerbee, Lee and Coleman era. The rags used this when they had Kanchelskis.
(c)...To use short, quick accurate passing to move upfield. This allows the team to move forward as a unit.

[gazeth]

I have to agree with the point made about moving the ball out of defence too slowly, this was even pointed out by the commentator during the Everton game.
As much as Micah has improved over the last few weeks I feel he contributes to this problem greatly, whenever he receives the ball from say Toure or Kompany, he has to take a touch and this simply allows the opposition to close him down and then he panics and launches it up field aimlessly. That's where Zab is better as he has far better football skills but lacks the height of Micah.

I have also noticed how deep Barry tends to site, there were several times during the Portsmouth game (I think) where he was getting in the centre halfs way.

[getdressedmctavish]

I think most people can see that under Mancini we think about how we defend and worry about scoring after that. You know I think de Jong is shit, as is, to a lesser extent, Vieira. But the point is, if you play like this, you need to be lethal upfront. I'm pretty sure Mancini has formed the same view of Ade as Hughes had, that he is too peripheral and half hearted. Problem is Ade has scored one or two crackers in the midst of what have been generally shite performances. To my mind Tevez on his own with creative players around him, two from Johnson, Ireland, Bellamy, or Shaun, is the best way to go. But you need some bottle to drop Ade in these circumstances. Mind you it wouldn't worry the fella with the purple nose across town, lol

[Im_Spartacus]

I think most people can see that under Mancini we think about how we defend and worry about scoring after that. You know I think de Jong is shit, as is, to a lesser extent, Vieira. But the point is, if you play like this, you need to be lethal upfront. I'm pretty sure Mancini has formed the same view of Ade as Hughes had, that he is too peripheral and half hearted. Problem is Ade has scored one or two crackers in the midst of what have been generally shite performances. To my mind Tevez on his own with creative players around him, two from Johnson, Ireland, Bellamy, or Shaun, is the best way to go. But you need some bottle to drop Ade in these circumstances. Mind you it wouldn't worry the fella with the purple nose across town, lol

Are you inebriated?

De Jong isnt shit, he does a DM job very well. Adebayor isnt shit, but we paid a fortune for him and his qualities made him amongst the most lethal strikers in the league earlier in the season.

However we have played in a different way which doesnt play to our players strengths - which is the real issue.

Neither are shit, they are both world class players in their own positions, we just havent worked out how we fit these world class players into our team

[getdressedmctavish]

Your absolutely correct my dear chap, and Mc Donalds provides some of the finest cuisine on this planet.

[Im_Spartacus]

Your absolutely correct my dear chap, and Mc Donalds provides some of the finest cuisine on this planet.

so they are shit?

[Nige]

Most replies are focussing on the CM role and prime candidates.

My issue at the moment is the lack of LM playing LM and RM playing RM, as mentioned by Bingo. If this was fixed I believe the CM issue wuld resolve itself as the players will be doing what they have done naturally for about 15 years!

I had a discussion earlier with a mate who was saying if we don't improve he's gonna stop going. My counter point was the league position. I too get fucking well annoyed with the lack of 'flow' and creativity but we must take note of being 4th and having time on our hands for Bobby Manc to eventually find a blend that works for results and the fans.

Remember when some folk were calling for monkey man Reid's head coz the football was shite? Nothing good happened results wise after that point until my friends.

For Sunday
£2 on Lescott First goal and this formation.

Given
Richards Toure(wish it was Vinnie) Lescott Bridge

SWP NDJ Barry AJ

Ade

You will note only 10 players. The last birth needs to be somebody to play in the opposing half so any of these who can walk. Ireland, Tevez, Bellers, Petrov

[Im_Spartacus]

Most replies are focussing on the CM role and prime candidates.

My issue at the moment is the lack of LM playing LM and RM playing RM, as mentioned by Bingo. If this was fixed I believe the CM issue wuld resolve itself as the players will be doing what they have done naturally for about 15 years!

I had a discussion earlier with a mate who was saying if we don't improve he's gonna stop going. My counter point was the league position. I too get fucking well annoyed with the lack of 'flow' and creativity but we must take note of being 4th and having time on our hands for Bobby Manc to eventually find a blend that works for results and the fans.

Remember when some folk were calling for monkey man Reid's head coz the football was shite? Nothing good happened results wise after that point until my friends.

For Sunday
£2 on Lescott First goal and this formation.

Given
Richards Toure(wish it was Vinnie) Lescott Bridge

SWP NDJ Barry AJ

Ade

You will note only 10 players. The last birth needs to be somebody to play in the opposing half so any of these who can walk. Ireland, Tevez, Bellers, Petrov

Watch gareth barry on sunday - watch him get the ball, pass it, and move behind the player. Watch when he doesnt have the ball, watch when we attack, and again watch him move away from a possible pass and into a place where it is impossible to recieve the ball back.

in no way picking on him, because De Jong is just as bad, his positioning and distribution is a fucking disgrace

[john68]

Sorry John but the positioning of Barry and De Jong isn't something that I have noticed buit if you are right...and I don't doubt that you are, it leads to another aspect of the problem.

Doug reports that great emphasis is put on positioning by Mancini on a daily basis in training. The question needs to be askled whether they are simply following Mancini's instructions or idnoring them.

Garry was very successful at Villa, consistantly so for many years....what has changed him?

I do agree wholeheartedly that we have quality players who are not being played to their strengths and possibly some like Barry who are being held back....BUT WHY????

[the_georgian_genius]

3 defensive midfielders?

Since when has Gareth Barry and Patrick Vieria been defensive midfielders?

Nigel De Jong (Defensive Midfielder) - 10 goals in his 8 year career, none since 2006
Gareth Barry (Central Midfielder) - 55 goals in his 12 year career.
Patrick Vieria - (Central Midfielder) - 50 goals in his 17 year career


Claude Makelele (Defensive Midfielder) - 18 goals in his 18 year career
Gennaro Gattuso (Defensive Midfielder) - 7 goals in his 14 year career
Javier Mascherano (Defensive Midfielder) - One goal in his 7 year career
Marcos Senna (Defensive Midfielder) - 14 goals in his 13 year career
Owen Hargreaves (Defensive Midfielder) - 7 goals in his 10 year career

Those five players above are defensive midfield players, Barry and Vieria AREN'T.

[john68]

Have you actually watched City recently?
What those players did last years and what they are doing now are different animal mate.

Or should we go out and resign Tuearet, bell Lee and Summerbee?...They played well some years ago too.