Our defending from corners and other set pieces

[Ted Hughes]

the trouble is and ive said it lots of time is, WE HAVE TOO MANY OF OUR PLAYERS IN THE PENALTY AREA when there is a corner or freekick. so when the ball comes in, hart carnt come out because of bodies and our players are in each others way. we really need to get this sorted out, if we have 3 players out of area, then the other team will need at least 4 players out, and then if we get the ball out, we will have a chance to counter attack and get away from our area

agree totally with that....as I said in another thread

I do have real concern's, however, about what the fuck has gone wrong with our collective ability to defend balls coming into the box. We frequently end up with three blue shirts fannying around a ball dropping into the area and NO-ONE dealing with it decisively. Some shitty looping header or scuffed clearance which then (by virtue of the fact that all our defenders are "like 5 year olds" chasing the ball and no-one is stationed at the edge of the box for the secondary ball) falls straight to the opposition and it's fucking panic stations again.

Someone needs to get a grip on this as it's incompetent and creates a sense of (understandable) panic which tangibly spreads through the rest of the team (and crowd). We have better players and coaches than this and it needs sorting.

Hughes tried the 3 up method & it was a disaster. we ended up just as bad as we are now.

[CITYSTEVEDON]

the trouble is and ive said it lots of time is, WE HAVE TOO MANY OF OUR PLAYERS IN THE PENALTY AREA when there is a corner or freekick. so when the ball comes in, hart carnt come out because of bodies and our players are in each others way. we really need to get this sorted out, if we have 3 players out of area, then the other team will need at least 4 players out, and then if we get the ball out, we will have a chance to counter attack and get away from our area

agree totally with that....as I said in another thread

I do have real concern's, however, about what the fuck has gone wrong with our collective ability to defend balls coming into the box. We frequently end up with three blue shirts fannying around a ball dropping into the area and NO-ONE dealing with it decisively. Some shitty looping header or scuffed clearance which then (by virtue of the fact that all our defenders are "like 5 year olds" chasing the ball and no-one is stationed at the edge of the box for the secondary ball) falls straight to the opposition and it's fucking panic stations again.

Someone needs to get a grip on this as it's incompetent and creates a sense of (understandable) panic which tangibly spreads through the rest of the team (and crowd). We have better players and coaches than this and it needs sorting.

it must be us two then who sees this problem. when/if we get the ball out of pen area what happens, IT COMES STRIGHT BACK IN as all our players are still in pen area. we do need to have players out of pen area if ball comes out, then we could go on the counter attack, it does my nuts in that other teams have players out of there own area ready to go forward, and we are pissing about in our own area.

[CITYSTEVEDON]

the trouble is and ive said it lots of time is, WE HAVE TOO MANY OF OUR PLAYERS IN THE PENALTY AREA when there is a corner or freekick. so when the ball comes in, hart carnt come out because of bodies and our players are in each others way. we really need to get this sorted out, if we have 3 players out of area, then the other team will need at least 4 players out, and then if we get the ball out, we will have a chance to counter attack and get away from our area

agree totally with that....as I said in another thread

I do have real concern's, however, about what the fuck has gone wrong with our collective ability to defend balls coming into the box. We frequently end up with three blue shirts fannying around a ball dropping into the area and NO-ONE dealing with it decisively. Some shitty looping header or scuffed clearance which then (by virtue of the fact that all our defenders are "like 5 year olds" chasing the ball and no-one is stationed at the edge of the box for the secondary ball) falls straight to the opposition and it's fucking panic stations again.

Someone needs to get a grip on this as it's incompetent and creates a sense of (understandable) panic which tangibly spreads through the rest of the team (and crowd). We have better players and coaches than this and it needs sorting.

Hughes tried the 3 up method & it was a disaster. we ended up just as bad as we are now.

it wasa disaster for there first goal [ i know it wasnt a corner] but still too many in our box, thats why it rebounded off komp

[Dubaimancityfan]

Not corner relatated, but..

Kolo Toure scores a goal.

Lescott gives one away.

Difference between them.

Toure gave wolves their first though. Crap defending. Kompany needsca better partner than we can give him at the moment.

He cleared it and it hit Kompany. Wasn't a clumsy error, just unlucky.

If I remember correctly, somthing similar happened in the away match at Wolves. Hart cleared a ball that hit Kolo and fell for the Wolves striker to score. Talk of deja vu !!

[Ted Hughes]

the trouble is and ive said it lots of time is, WE HAVE TOO MANY OF OUR PLAYERS IN THE PENALTY AREA when there is a corner or freekick. so when the ball comes in, hart carnt come out because of bodies and our players are in each others way. we really need to get this sorted out, if we have 3 players out of area, then the other team will need at least 4 players out, and then if we get the ball out, we will have a chance to counter attack and get away from our area

agree totally with that....as I said in another thread

I do have real concern's, however, about what the fuck has gone wrong with our collective ability to defend balls coming into the box. We frequently end up with three blue shirts fannying around a ball dropping into the area and NO-ONE dealing with it decisively. Some shitty looping header or scuffed clearance which then (by virtue of the fact that all our defenders are "like 5 year olds" chasing the ball and no-one is stationed at the edge of the box for the secondary ball) falls straight to the opposition and it's fucking panic stations again.

Someone needs to get a grip on this as it's incompetent and creates a sense of (understandable) panic which tangibly spreads through the rest of the team (and crowd). We have better players and coaches than this and it needs sorting.

Hughes tried the 3 up method & it was a disaster. we ended up just as bad as we are now.

it wasa disaster for there first goal [ i know it wasnt a corner] but still too many in our box, thats why it rebounded off komp

We're all over the place at the moment but I don't think it's because we have too many in the box, imo it's because most of them aren't either marking players or blocking runs or covering their zones; they mostly just stand & watch. All the constant changes to the back 4 in particular can't be helping. The whole thing has absolutely gone to shit & the rags will exploit it unless we do something quickly; they are excellent at set pieces. Bob needs to get to work & sort it out.

[Dubaimancityfan]

We've conceded 19 goals, same as Scum and Chelsk but the glaring difference is that we have conceded more at home(10) whereas the other 2 have conceded 7 each. I think that is inexcusable especially as Mancini has taken pride in that fixing our defence was his first priority. Conceding 3 to Wolves (although I still think the 3rd didn't cross the line) and 2 to Sven's team is just not on.
On top of that we have scored more away (19) than at home (18) which makes the whole equation mind boggling ! Imagine if our home form was as good as our away form !

[bluechester]

the trouble is and ive said it lots of time is, WE HAVE TOO MANY OF OUR PLAYERS IN THE PENALTY AREA when there is a corner or freekick. so when the ball comes in, hart carnt come out because of bodies and our players are in each others way. we really need to get this sorted out, if we have 3 players out of area, then the other team will need at least 4 players out, and then if we get the ball out, we will have a chance to counter attack and get away from our area

agree totally with that....as I said in another thread

I do have real concern's, however, about what the fuck has gone wrong with our collective ability to defend balls coming into the box. We frequently end up with three blue shirts fannying around a ball dropping into the area and NO-ONE dealing with it decisively. Some shitty looping header or scuffed clearance which then (by virtue of the fact that all our defenders are "like 5 year olds" chasing the ball and no-one is stationed at the edge of the box for the secondary ball) falls straight to the opposition and it's fucking panic stations again.

Someone needs to get a grip on this as it's incompetent and creates a sense of (understandable) panic which tangibly spreads through the rest of the team (and crowd). We have better players and coaches than this and it needs sorting.

Hughes tried the 3 up method & it was a disaster. we ended up just as bad as we are now.

hughes had 3 on the half way line, while now we have eleven in our own area, we clear the ball no one their to get it, i agree, the hughes way did not work, but leaving 3 people ouy of area, will work, dont have to leave them on half way line all at the same time

[Niall Quinns Discopants]

More importantly, has zonal marking ever been successful in this leauge?

It doesn't matter whether it's zonal or man to man. If the ball is in your vicinity you head the fucking thing ...... it's not advanced physics for fuck sake !

spot on.
Regardless of the system you need to win those balls. What difference does it make did Lescott lose his man or not dominate his zone?

[ant london]

We're all over the place at the moment but I don't think it's because we have too many in the box, imo it's because most of them aren't either marking players or blocking runs or covering their zones; they mostly just stand & watch. All the constant changes to the back 4 in particular can't be helping. The whole thing has absolutely gone to shit & the rags will exploit it unless we do something quickly; they are excellent at set pieces. Bob needs to get to work & sort it out.

Whilst I do agree that the chopping and changing at the back cannot in one way be helping matters it must be emphasised that we are rotating within a pretty small group of players

Kompany
K Toure
Zabaleta
Richards
Boateng
Lescott

even if you chuck Bridge and Boyata into the pot we are not talking about random players coming in and out. There are a small group of 6 players rotating around 4 bloody positions.

If we were talking about the confusion/lack of clarity about roles and responsibilities caused by (say) Zabba being right back sometimes and other times on the left then I may be inclined to accept that possibility. BUT we are not even doing the basics right at the moment. If we are playing zonal or a mix of zonal and man to man it is a fucking dogs dinner currently.

All of the above are professional defenders. Set pieces should be their bread and butter, they are not small, they are not puny. They need to sort this out between themselves as much as the coaches need to work on this as they are collectively looking a shambles.

[Slim]

Whilst I do agree that the chopping and changing at the back cannot in one way be helping matters it must be emphasised that we are rotating within a pretty small group of players

Kompany
K Toure
Zabaleta
Richards
Boateng
Lescott

Fucking hell, we sold Kolarov.

[Ted Hughes]

We're all over the place at the moment but I don't think it's because we have too many in the box, imo it's because most of them aren't either marking players or blocking runs or covering their zones; they mostly just stand & watch. All the constant changes to the back 4 in particular can't be helping. The whole thing has absolutely gone to shit & the rags will exploit it unless we do something quickly; they are excellent at set pieces. Bob needs to get to work & sort it out.

Whilst I do agree that the chopping and changing at the back cannot in one way be helping matters it must be emphasised that we are rotating within a pretty small group of players

Kompany
K Toure
Zabaleta
Richards
Boateng
Lescott

even if you chuck Bridge and Boyata into the pot we are not talking about random players coming in and out. There are a small group of 6 players rotating around 4 bloody positions.

If we were talking about the confusion/lack of clarity about roles and responsibilities caused by (say) Zabba being right back sometimes and other times on the left then I may be inclined to accept that possibility. BUT we are not even doing the basics right at the moment. If we are playing zonal or a mix of zonal and man to man it is a fucking dogs dinner currently.

All of the above are professional defenders. Set pieces should be their bread and butter, they are not small, they are not puny. They need to sort this out between themselves as much as the coaches need to work on this as they are collectively looking a shambles.

If you were to fill a room with all the best defenders from the last twenty years & ask them what most cocks up their defending & what best solves it, they'd say having a settled back 4 & in particular, a settled centre back pairing. We don't really have a settled back one. I'm sure it's possible to fix it in the long run & still swap players willy nilly but it certainly breeds confusion & makes the job harder more prone to going wrong. How do you organise who's doing what job if it's a different bloke every time? If there's a mistake & you talk about it afterwards then the next game, playing next to you, is a different bloke or three different blokes, how do you avoid it happening again? When it does happen & you talk about it, in the next game you're not playing & those 4 are etc.

[ant london]

Ted, I know what you're saying and that is a plausible reason/explanation for the odd element of confusion and a cock up here and there but when it comes to set pieces and balls into the box it's like they have never bloody clapped eyes on each other before sometimes.

Whilst I agree that a completely settled back 4 would undoubtedly tighten matters up, the fact of the matter is that the degree of changes (esp at centre half) have not been such to explain our keystone cops style of defending whenever a ball is chucked into the mix.

The players are all, individually, much much better than they are showing in those circumstances...changes or no changes

[Ted Hughes]

Ted, I know what you're saying and that is a plausible reason/explanation for the odd element of confusion and a cock up here and there but when it comes to set pieces and balls into the box it's like they have never bloody clapped eyes on each other before sometimes.

Whilst I agree that a completely settled back 4 would undoubtedly tighten matters up, the fact of the matter is that the degree of changes (esp at centre half) have not been such to explain our keystone cops style of defending whenever a ball is chucked into the mix.

The players are all, individually, much much better than they are showing in those circumstances...changes or no changes

The way we set up, most of them aren't involved when the ball comes in though. You see Lescott fighting to block people & fighting to try & get to the ball & a bunch of blokes stood still watching him. If he fails, nobody moves blocks or does anything. It's like they've all been assigned jobs to do something other than actually stop the oppo from scoring.

The standard routine is; a bloke runs in behind a group of tall players, unopposed & heads the ball into the net usually watched by a fullback & sometime Lescott charging towards them. Nobody seems to think he may run behind them instead of in front, so they don't block the run. There should be about 4 six footers in there flattening him but they're always doing something else. When Lescott was at Everton, he used to have them holding hands in a wall there before the ball came in, so they knew they were close together & there was no way to run through.

[blues2win]

Lescott wasn't fighting to get to the ball when Wolves hit the bar. He just stood there allowing the player a free header. That plus one of the most ridiculous penalties I've ever seen. Not good enough, I'm afraid. Why was Hughes so obsessed with him?

Next Saturday we have Carew and Dunne to face at corners. If we play like that they'll score off one of them.

[Ted Hughes]

Lescott wasn't fighting to get to the ball when Wolves hit the bar. He just stood there allowing the player a free header. That plus one of the most ridiculous penalties I've ever seen. Not good enough, I'm afraid. Why was Hughes so obsessed with him?

Next Saturday we have Carew and Dunne to face at corners. If we play like that they'll score off one of them.

The defending he did for the pen was poor. The other bit is totally wrong and grossly unfair. It's Yaya Toure who has the bloke when the ball is kicked. He moves away & Lescott comes running out to where he thinks the ball may be going. It wasn't a particularly good judgement of flight by Lescott but it certainly is not his player. He's trying to reach an area which Toure could easily have defended. It goes to the bloke Toure was originally stood next to. All Toure had to do was block him off & he couldn't have possibly got a header in but he just moved away from him instead & ended up yards away marking nobody. It's there on the OS for you to watch if you don't believe me, just look where Toure is when the ball is kicked. If it was me, I'd stop the bloke from heading the ball.

[DeJong4PM]

we was alright wen adebayor was front post, that needs to be dzeko the lamposts job now, and against leicester it was atrotious either that or that lad who kept winning the headers is a new drogba of some sort, doubt it though, boateng messed up, but shouldnt the centre back of bin on him?

[Ted Hughes]

we was alright wen adebayor was front post, that needs to be dzeko the lamposts job now, and against leicester it was atrotious either that or that lad who kept winning the headers is a new drogba of some sort, doubt it though, boateng messed up, but shouldnt the centre back of bin on him?

Sometimes, all the big blokes seem to be bunched together towards the near post & centre & the fullbacks left alone at the far post. If Micah's playing that may not be so bad but when it's Kolarov, Boateng & Zabba? Trouble.

[blues2win]

Ted. I suspect we're talking about two different incidents. I'm certainly not blaming Lescott for the third goal; Zabaleta was outjumped. I was referring to the incident when Wolves hit the bar. I've checked the OS and can only see the 60 second highlights which understandably only show the goals. If I mistakenly blamed Lescott on this occasion I'm happy to hold my hands up but I'm not sure with the zonal system that anyone is anyone's. He seemed pretty close to the Wolves jumper to me and certainly didn't attack the space where he was located. There again no one seems to these days. I agree with another poster that Dzeko might be a fair bet for near post duties and with others still that we need more options for Hart when a corner kick/ free kick phase of play breaks down.

Personally I like to see at least one centre back who's really dominant in the air; a Vidic or a Terry ( at least at his peak). Vinnie's a really good player but I think he would benefit from that type of partner. Kolo, for all his abilities, doesn't fit the bill and from what I've seen of Lescott he doesn't either. In addition Lescott is not the calmest defender in the world and isn't strong in the tackle or in shielding the ball. He gets outmuscled far too often from what I can see.

[Kladze]

Again, I'll say it - it's not rocket science.

I really don't fully buy into this 'changing defenders fucks it up' stuff entirely either. While it's true that it never helps it certainly shouldn't stop supposedly top notch (certainly top dollar) defenders from doing a basic defensive task.

You have a space to mark - if the ball comes into that space you attack the ball and any opposition player. If an opposition player comes into that space you get tight to him,rough him up; if he attempts to leave the space you block his run, rough him up (or whatever else is necessary).

[Ted Hughes]

Ted. I suspect we're talking about two different incidents. I'm certainly not blaming Lescott for the third goal; Zabaleta was outjumped. I was referring to the incident when Wolves hit the bar. I've checked the OS and can only see the 60 second highlights which understandably only show the goals. If I mistakenly blamed Lescott on this occasion I'm happy to hold my hands up but I'm not sure with the zonal system that anyone is anyone's. He seemed pretty close to the Wolves jumper to me and certainly didn't attack the space where he was located. There again no one seems to these days. I agree with another poster that Dzeko might be a fair bet for near post duties and with others still that we need more options for Hart when a corner kick/ free kick phase of play breaks down.

Personally I like to see at least one centre back who's really dominant in the air; a Vidic or a Terry ( at least at his peak). Vinnie's a really good player but I think he would benefit from that type of partner. Kolo, for all his abilities, doesn't fit the bill and from what I've seen of Lescott he doesn't either. In addition Lescott is not the calmest defender in the world and isn't strong in the tackle or in shielding the ball. He gets outmuscled far too often from what I can see.

No I was talking about the incident when they hit the bar mate. There are extended highlights & if you pause it when the camera follows the ball, Lescott is yards away from the bloke, in our 6 yard box & Yaya is stood right next to him, close enough to push him out. As the ball comes in, Yaya just drifts away from him away from the direction of the ball for some reason & Lescott runs out, hence he ends up where Yaya should have been. If Yaya had just blocked him for a second, Lescott would have finished the job, but he didn't. I don't understand what Yaya is doing at all but he ends up in a space on his own jumping for a ball that isn't coming within yards of him!

I think the lack of players successfully blocking runs is one of the key reasons we've struggled. Even when we try to do it, we don't get it right.