Premier league reality

[BlueinBosnia]

Does anyone truly think that it's reasonable to build a Premier League wining side in a couple of years...Obviously, there are some idiots who do. Never been done before, by any club, any manager, at any time. We are the nearest anyone has ever got to doing it and we are so near it. We may be dropping behind in the race but with 7 games to go we are still hanging on with a chance. If we should do it,and we can, IT WOULD BE THE MOST SUCCESSFUL RISE IN ANY TEAM....EVER.

Ferguson got United from 13th place to Champions in 3 seasons (13>6>2>1).
Blackburn went from 6th in the old 2nd Division to PL Champions in 3 seasons (6Div2>4>2>1)
Arsenal went from 12th to Champions in 3 seasons (12>5>3>1)
Since the inception of the Premier League, 3 of its 4 Champions have achieved such a feat.

[john68]

Spartacus,
I don't think any of us are happy with those results mate. Nor do I think that City fans are happy with the performances. Where you and some may see it as an end, I see it as a challenge that we have not yet surmounted but given time, will do so. Earlier, I posted how many things have already changed for the better and how Mancini has slowly (maybe a little too slowly for some) has steadily changed the system.
All the teams that have built from a low starting position have had to go through the same process. Arsenal under Wenger, the rags under Taggart and Chelsea under whoever was their manager that week. All those teams underwent a period of failure before success.

Wenger's Arsenal gained only 63pys in his 1st season and only 68 in his 2nd. He won the league in his 3rd season but went another 3 years (78, 73, 70) before winning it again (87pts). His great unbeaten invincible team still managedto drop 24pts, some to clubs like Pompey. They had dodgy games too.

Taggart fared even worse when he started, it was his 8th season when he dragged therags to the top and remember that his 84pts was from 42 games not 38.

Chelsea started their investment way back in the mid 90s when Gullit brought Vialli, Petrescu, Di Matteo and Lebeouf to the Bridge. Their investment yielded no League success until 9years later.

Mistakes, piss poor performances, shite results...they experienced them all, just as Arsenal and Chelsea have done this season.

It's just the way it is Mate. Hard to deal with as a blue but we are still ahead of schedule. Oh and evenwhen ewe get there, we'll have shite days and shite performances to put up with. Hopefully, just less of em.

[Im_Spartacus]

Sporting x 1, not two! Also Sunderland got fucking lucky! It's not complete denial John, it's trying to have a little faith and belief!

We lost to sporting in the first leg, and were 2.0 down in the 2nd. And bollocks were sunderland lucky. 1.0 is lucky, 2 maybe a coincidence, 3 is careless. We are like an asthmatic big bad wolf, a lot of huffing and puffing, but unable to blow the house down when it matters.

I still believe we can do arsenal, in fact i am marginally more confident about the arsenal game than i was vs stoke and swansea, because i feel they generally find it difficult to play against us.. But there are patterns to our play which over recent weeks and months we cannot ignore, and its hard to have faith in the approach of a team going to arsenal with 2 goals from open play in 4/5 months - that is an almost pearce-esque record.

As for faith and belief, i think many get belief and faith mixed up with a word with a very different meaning - hope, which is something completely different.

[ruralblue]

I have belief we can still do it John, and faith that the team and Mancini can pull it off :-)

[john68]

We all hope Mate, I think that goes without saying. But in your assessment of City, remember that whatever our failings this season, every other club bar one has been blown away by our record. How piss poor must they be\?

The bar one is the rags but have they fared much better? The penalty v Fulham would have reduced their lead to 2 and is no reflection of their form. Chusk a few more of those decisions into the pot and there is very little difference between us and them. Taggart and his players have fucked up just as often as Mancini and ours. Take away the effects of missing Kompany etc and the implications of that and are we really that far away.
If we are a shambles, the rags are no better and they remain to be seen as England's best team...what then does that say for the rest of English football?

The Champions of English football is the team that makes the least mistakes, not always the team that plays the best football. Sometimes the title is decided by a few refereeing decisions...No matter what eventually decides the league, you can guarantee that the team who win it will have played plenty of shit games, had some horrendous performances and made a shed load of mistakes.

We are far from perfect but within a whisker of being perfect enough.

[Swales4ever]

The Premier League is the most competitive League in the World, on any day, any team can beat any other team and this happens more here than in any other comparative major League. The title is not a gift, it has to be won week by week and game by game. Mistakes are made and have been made since its inception, even by the most successful teams. Mancini has made tons of mistakes this season, but why are we surprised? Every other manager, Taggart included has done similar and the record shows that, no matter how many mistakes, nor how big they have been, there is only one manager who has made less and that's debatable considering the points he's picked up from refereeing decisions.

In its 20 year history, only FOUR teams have been champions, the rags, Blackburn, Arsenal and Chelsea and only on seven occasions has it been taken away from the swamp. The rest of English football has tried and largely failed over time to overhaul the rags. We are so near to it (and it's not over yet) and we have got to that stage in a fraction of the time it took the others.

It's ok to analyse and get forensic about every action taken by Mancini but FFS, do the same with the others too. Chairmen, managers and clubs who have been at it a lot longer than us have fallen by the wayside this season. Mancini and City are still just about in there. Give us some credit.

Your always preaching patience.We have been patient for years now is our time and to watch some fucker balls it up through not knowing what is required is a bit sickening.

Do you have the magic bullet to solve it all? Are you saying some mercenary would solve it all? Look I am so indifferent on Mancini it is boring, I can take him or leave him, but I firmly believe in the devil you know versus the one you don't. Anyway, less I digress. What is it exactly he has done wrong? I don't want a "he doesn't have a clue" comment, I want specifics, and then I would love to hear you tell us for sure how you or someone who "gets it" would make it work.

Look I think some of his tactical moves are terrible, I think the biggest difference between us and the rags is the manager, but I really do not think you or most anyone else who I would call loyal (i.e. Gus and Jose would not make me happy as mercenaries) could really be doing a much better job.

Onto John68's point and yours about patience, we have had a top team in place for two seasons. Top talent wise, but unfortunately not top chemistry. While all very very good players with their own skill sets, every striker we have not named Aguero is not fitting in. Tevez is a mess, Dzeko is not a good fit for a team without a true winger to utilize his best skills, and Mario (while I love him) is out of control 99% of the time. The chemistry is still not there, and we need to find a way to solve it. We solve that, and then maybe there is that magic bullet.

That said, I expect us within the next 2 seasons to start a run to rival the one scum has had.

Very good post, which I agree mostly bar missing to stress how crucial has been the drop of Silva form and the unavailability of few key players in key moments (ditto Yaya and Vinnie).

As for Sir John, I don't have to comment any of his word, just sipping and learn from them, always thanking him to exist and spread his word of wisdom.

[Mingchester Mingy]

Im a bit depressed just from reading this thread. Where is my beer and blanky?

[Bear60]

For too many years I have defended City against the rags and other fans, against out of context media reportage that has twisted and stories and lies manufactured to attack our club. Now I find that I am having to defend City from City fans themselves. I come on here and thread after thread is like reading through a huge never ending suicide note of bleating, whingeing and disgruntled fans.

City spends millions = the best squad = City MUST win the League = coming 2nd is NOT good enough = FAILURE. Sorry folks, that equation never stacked up in the past, doesn't now and no matter what the likes of Merson, Custis, Lawrenson, Green, Hanson, or anyone else tells you, it doesn't stack upnow and it never will in the future. GET REAL.

I don't doubt the genuine and gut wrenching disappointments of the last few weeks are real and painful, I feel them too but it is senseless and the only thing it damages is CITY. The rags and the media must be sat round laughing their heads off at the results of their work. They have helped build unreal expectation "City must win the League this season"..."City are favourites"..."City can only throw it away"..."If City lose it now, they will have failed"..."Mancini has lost control of the dressing room"..."There is no plan B"..."Mancini has lost it under pressure"..."City have capitulated"...and now are having a field day at yours and City's expense. Non of it is true.

Does anyone truly think that it's reasonable to build a Premier League wining side in a couple of years...Obviously, there are some idiots who do. Never been done before, by any club, any manager, at any time. We are the nearest anyone has ever got to doing it and we are so near it. We may be dropping behind in the race but with 7 games to go we are still hanging on with a chance. If we should do it,and we can, IT WOULD BE THE MOST SUCCESSFUL RISE IN ANY TEAM....EVER.

check out some facts...then wobble yer heads.

As usual John your take on things are always realistic and sensible agree entirely with everything you say I would like to borrow it for my moronic braindead rag aquantances who keep gloating at me. Mind you most of them are that thick they would not be able to comprehend any of it.

[Lev Bronstein]

I remember posting last august that all the media stuff about how City must win the league this year or else Mancini will get the sack was just hype to crank up the pressure and was preparation for the sort of comments that we're getting now. So now we've dropped off the pace I'm not surprised at some of the things being said. The media like to build up a story, City "failing", the fans "in revolt" and "discontent" in the dressing room: half of those articles were probably sketched out last summer.

Just for a minute though, let's think about the effect our challenge has had on the rags. I honestly believe that they gave Europe a lowre priority than usual because they were looking over their shoulder at us. They're on track to end up with a record points tally: but then they have to be , we're on track for record points for runners up. And there are more examples - let's face it we've worried them like they've not been worried in a long time. They'd sooner finish second to Chelsea than us.

I'm not going to slag off fellow blues who are brassed off at another flat performance and say so. We all react badly to poor results, or more likely, poor performances. I've posted elsewhere about the sort of questions the owners should be asking and I'm not going to repeat myself. I just hope that when they do look at the situation they are a damn sight more rational than I was last Saturday night.

We are a bit bipolar on here. When we were 5 points in front, anyone who came on here urging caution, "we've won nothing yet" or "It's a long season, we're going to dip at some time", was howled down for having a "losers" mentality. Now we're 5 points behind anyone who comes on here less than suicidal, or looking for positives is slagged off for being unrealistic or "are you happy with that performance": jeez!

It's because we're fans I suppose: you have to be a bit irrational to be a football fan; and you have had to have been clinically insane to follow City. Wouldn't have it any other way though.

[Blue Since 76]

John,
It takes most teams years to build as you have to slowly improve your players. However, we've been able to buy pretty much anyone. Yes there a few who still wouldn't come but they wouldn't come to our rivals either.

People keep saying is that all we need to do in summer is replace about 10 of the squad with world class players but it's not like that. No other team has 25 internationals yet because we only have 24 it's used as an excuse for failure.

Would you swap our current 25 for any other 25 in the league? Unless you'd swap for the rags then either we've under achieved or they've over achieved. If the squads are roughly equal, then a handful of points over the course of a season would be a reasonable margin. However, I think our squad is much better than the rags therefore to finish behind them will be a failure on the club's part. You can lay that blame wherever you want, but it's still failure.

There's also a constant message that even if we don't win it this year we will next year and we'll go on to rule the premier league for the foreseeable. Seem to remember the same thing being said last May and Arsenal have been saying it for almost a decade. Maybe it'll happen next year but it's just as likely it won't.

[Blue Since 76]

Do you have the magic bullet to solve it all? Are you saying some mercenary would solve it all? Look I am so indifferent on Mancini it is boring, I can take him or leave him, but I firmly believe in the devil you know versus the one you don't. Anyway, less I digress. What is it exactly he has done wrong? I don't want a "he doesn't have a clue" comment, I want specifics, and then I would love to hear you tell us for sure how you or someone who "gets it" would make it work.

Look I think some of his tactical moves are terrible, I think the biggest difference between us and the rags is the manager, but I really do not think you or most anyone else who I would call loyal (i.e. Gus and Jose would not make me happy as mercenaries) could really be doing a much better job.

Onto John68's point and yours about patience, we have had a top team in place for two seasons. Top talent wise, but unfortunately not top chemistry. While all very very good players with their own skill sets, every striker we have not named Aguero is not fitting in. Tevez is a mess, Dzeko is not a good fit for a team without a true winger to utilize his best skills, and Mario (while I love him) is out of control 99% of the time. The chemistry is still not there, and we need to find a way to solve it. We solve that, and then maybe there is that magic bullet.

That said, I expect us within the next 2 seasons to start a run to rival the one scum has had.

Mourinho hasn't shown any willingness or ability to build a dynasty so far and who knows if he can. What he has shown is an ability to take a squad, tweak it and make it win things. Not always in the most pretty fashion (Chelsea and Inter in the CL) but he wins.

Ranieri did a much better job of buying for the future at Chelsea and many of his team are still the bedrock of Chelsea (plus Cech who never got to play for him). However, would he have ever won the league? Rhetoric question, as there's no way to know, but I doubt it.

As for the mess with our strikers you mention, Mario and Dzeko were bought by Mancini. Doesn't bode well for the next £50m he's given!

[Original Dub]

I remember posting last august that all the media stuff about how City must win the league this year or else Mancini will get the sack was just hype to crank up the pressure and was preparation for the sort of comments that we're getting now. So now we've dropped off the pace I'm not surprised at some of the things being said. The media like to build up a story, City "failing", the fans "in revolt" and "discontent" in the dressing room: half of those articles were probably sketched out last summer.

Just for a minute though, let's think about the effect our challenge has had on the rags. I honestly believe that they gave Europe a lowre priority than usual because they were looking over their shoulder at us. They're on track to end up with a record points tally: but then they have to be , we're on track for record points for runners up. And there are more examples - let's face it we've worried them like they've not been worried in a long time. They'd sooner finish second to Chelsea than us.

I'm not going to slag off fellow blues who are brassed off at another flat performance and say so. We all react badly to poor results, or more likely, poor performances. I've posted elsewhere about the sort of questions the owners should be asking and I'm not going to repeat myself. I just hope that when they do look at the situation they are a damn sight more rational than I was last Saturday night.

We are a bit bipolar on here. When we were 5 points in front, anyone who came on here urging caution, "we've won nothing yet" or "It's a long season, we're going to dip at some time", was howled down for having a "losers" mentality. Now we're 5 points behind anyone who comes on here less than suicidal, or looking for positives is slagged off for being unrealistic or "are you happy with that performance": jeez!

It's because we're fans I suppose: you have to be a bit irrational to be a football fan; and you have had to have been clinically insane to follow City. Wouldn't have it any other way though.

What a quality post mate.

And your point about people urging caution and saying things can turn in an instant when we were 5 points ahead are the very ones saying its over when we went 2 points behind?

Brilliant.

[Lev Bronstein]

I remember posting last august that all the media stuff about how City must win the league this year or else Mancini will get the sack was just hype to crank up the pressure and was preparation for the sort of comments that we're getting now. So now we've dropped off the pace I'm not surprised at some of the things being said. The media like to build up a story, City "failing", the fans "in revolt" and "discontent" in the dressing room: half of those articles were probably sketched out last summer.

Just for a minute though, let's think about the effect our challenge has had on the rags. I honestly believe that they gave Europe a lowre priority than usual because they were looking over their shoulder at us. They're on track to end up with a record points tally: but then they have to be , we're on track for record points for runners up. And there are more examples - let's face it we've worried them like they've not been worried in a long time. They'd sooner finish second to Chelsea than us.

I'm not going to slag off fellow blues who are brassed off at another flat performance and say so. We all react badly to poor results, or more likely, poor performances. I've posted elsewhere about the sort of questions the owners should be asking and I'm not going to repeat myself. I just hope that when they do look at the situation they are a damn sight more rational than I was last Saturday night.

We are a bit bipolar on here. When we were 5 points in front, anyone who came on here urging caution, "we've won nothing yet" or "It's a long season, we're going to dip at some time", was howled down for having a "losers" mentality. Now we're 5 points behind anyone who comes on here less than suicidal, or looking for positives is slagged off for being unrealistic or "are you happy with that performance": jeez!

It's because we're fans I suppose: you have to be a bit irrational to be a football fan; and you have had to have been clinically insane to follow City. Wouldn't have it any other way though.

What a quality post mate.

And your point about people urging caution and saying things can turn in an instant when we were 5 points ahead are the very ones saying its over when we went 2 points behind?

Brilliant.

Ooops, not made myself clear - whoever goes against whatever the current mood gets slagged off one way or other.

[john68]

Blue since 76,
When you try to measure how long it takes to build a team, you have to consider the level we are attempting to compete at. We are not talking about building a useful or even a good side, we are talking about building the BEST side, the TOP team. A team that can take on the best that this country can offer and can be successful against all comers in Europe and do so over a long and sustained period. A short fix for short term success is an easier task. In the mid table, a couple of players signed can make a huge difference but at the level we are aiming, it takes a whole lot more. It is achieving that top level that takes the time, many clubs have tried but relatively few actually succeed.
It is also not strictly true that we can buy any player we want. We have failed in our attempts to land a number of players and apart from the likes of Tevez, Silva, Aguero and possibly a few more, our present squad is quite poor compared to the likes of Bayern, Barca, Real Madrid and the current real deals in European football. We don't yet have an equivalent Messi, Ronaldo, Iniesta, Robben, Xavi et al. They are the teams we are really aiming to compete with. That is the level our owners have set as a target.

I don't really understand the point you are making in your 2nd paragraph, so I'll leave until I am clear.

Your point regarding swapping our squad with any other is largely irrelevant, nobody has ever suggested that we would consider doing so en bloc. But I think you miss an important factor here. It is is only partly about individual players, it is teams that win trophies and whether we like it or not, the proof is that at this precise time, the record shows the rags have a better team. The record also shows that none of the recent or present top English clubs built their teams in such a short space of time as some seem to be demanding of City. But don't think there is a great deal of difference between us and the rags. Currently it stands at 5pts or translated, 1 win + 1 draw. Strip away a few refereeing decisions and there is nothing to choose between us.

Considering our squad and the level we wish to attain, I see plenty of weaknesses and you have only to read through a few threads on here to understand which players come in for the most criticism. Personally, I think we are still a million miles from where Mancini would like us to be and maybe only Hart, Micah, Kompany, Lescott, Clichy(?) Barry(?), Milner(?) Silva, Yaya, Aguero and Nasri (?) are suitable for our longer term needs. Whilst this is the best City squad I have ever seen, I wonder whether it is good enough for where we are going.

Part of the fun of football is that there are no guarantees. It would be boring if that were so. But whatever Arsenal, Chelsea or even Liverpool have promised, in the last 20 years, there are only 4 teams that have won the Premier League; Blackburn, Arsenal, Chelsea and the rags. Only the rags have run the whole course in the top three, Blackburn are in danger of going down, Arsenal have done nothing substantial, other than threaten and Chelsea, despite their investments beginning in 1996, have only became a serious challenger since 2003.

Whatever happens this season and it is not over yet with 7 games to go, we are the future. we have already attained last season's total with 7 games to go. A massive improvement that has scared the shite out of the ragsand the reast of English football.

[john68]

Quality post Lev as always.

[DoomMerchant]

Quality post Lev as always.

You never tell me that. Never.

Also, start making posts that aren't 6 paragraphs. Im a slow reader.

[Swales4ever]

Quality post Doomie.
You neither need to be redundant to deem your eloquence...

[Niall Quinns Discopants]

For too many years I have defended City against the rags and other fans, against out of context media reportage that has twisted and stories and lies manufactured to attack our club. Now I find that I am having to defend City from City fans themselves. I come on here and thread after thread is like reading through a huge never ending suicide note of bleating, whingeing and disgruntled fans.

City spends millions = the best squad = City MUST win the League = coming 2nd is NOT good enough = FAILURE. Sorry folks, that equation never stacked up in the past, doesn't now and no matter what the likes of Merson, Custis, Lawrenson, Green, Hanson, or anyone else tells you, it doesn't stack upnow and it never will in the future. GET REAL.

I don't doubt the genuine and gut wrenching disappointments of the last few weeks are real and painful, I feel them too but it is senseless and the only thing it damages is CITY. The rags and the media must be sat round laughing their heads off at the results of their work. They have helped build unreal expectation "City must win the League this season"..."City are favourites"..."City can only throw it away"..."If City lose it now, they will have failed"..."Mancini has lost control of the dressing room"..."There is no plan B"..."Mancini has lost it under pressure"..."City have capitulated"...and now are having a field day at yours and City's expense. Non of it is true.

Does anyone truly think that it's reasonable to build a Premier League wining side in a couple of years...Obviously, there are some idiots who do. Never been done before, by any club, any manager, at any time. We are the nearest anyone has ever got to doing it and we are so near it. We may be dropping behind in the race but with 7 games to go we are still hanging on with a chance. If we should do it,and we can, IT WOULD BE THE MOST SUCCESSFUL RISE IN ANY TEAM....EVER.

check out some facts...then wobble yer heads.

That's it.
I never EXPECTED us to win the league. I wanted improvement on points tally (check), position (check) and how we play (check, check). How far that takes us depends(/ended) on many many variables. This year, as it happens, rags are fucking deadly and will take the title. Doesn't mean WE have done badly ourselves.

But it's the video game thinking behind this. You just BUY BUY BUY and that means we just win everything. That's not how it works in real life.

[Blue Since 76]

.

But it's the video game thinking behind this. You just BUY BUY BUY and that means we just win everything. That's not how it works in real life.

So what do you do then? In the players that will change us in summer I don't see anyone saying let's keep the same 25 and with the extra experience and some coaching they'll be good enough. So what is needed then - time or new players? If the latter, will next year just be another year of getting to know each other?

[Beefymcfc]

Has anybody mentioned 'The Special One' yet, as that seems to be what I'm hearing from some of these posts?