Martin Samuel - Who could do better than Mancini?

[PeterParker]

I'm rerferring to Ferguson as of today & the reason I didn't mention Aguero is because he is someone Bob has signed which has worked. The others we could have done without. I could have added Savic, AJ, Boateng if it was purely about listing signings which don't fit, I'm just giving a few examples of top quality players who we don't really use properly & who we could have not bothered signing.

Yes and no with Aguero. He was spitting fire when he arrived here, but like every signing we had, he went on the downfall. He is still class, but i don't know how good he will be the next season.

Another two examples are Milner and Nasri. The first one made his debut with Scouse, at that 3-0 and looked stellar. He was the main reason we won without any problems & Nasri, just remember his Spurs game. 3 or 4 assist, cracking game, maybe the reason we won 5-1.

All i am saying is that those players became shadows of what they were because of what Bob tried with them. There are too many examples here to say that they didn't accommodated with the new team. Something went wrong in the way he trained them.

[Ted Hughes]

I'm rerferring to Ferguson as of today & the reason I didn't mention Aguero is because he is someone Bob has signed which has worked. The others we could have done without. I could have added Savic, AJ, Boateng if it was purely about listing signings which don't fit, I'm just giving a few examples of top quality players who we don't really use properly & who we could have not bothered signing.

Yes and no with Aguero. He was spitting fire when he arrived here, but like every signing we had, he went on the downfall. He is still class, but i don't know how good he will be the next season.

Another two examples are Milner and Nasri. The first one made his debut with Scouse, at that 3-0 and looked stellar. He was the main reason we won without any problems & Nasri, just remember his Spurs game. 3 or 4 assist, cracking game, maybe the reason we won 5-1.

All i am saying is that those players became shadows of what they were because of what Bob tried with them. There are two many examples here to say that they didn't accommodated with the new team. Something went wrong in the way he trained them.

I agree but the point I am making is that if we decide on what our pattern(s) of play are going to be, then we sign players who are amongst the world's best at implementing those patterns, then when players lose form, we just bench them & bring in someone equally adept. Sometimes as a variation we've played a kind of 4-4-2 with people like Silva or Milner trying to do the kind of job Valencia would be doing. Yet when our plan 'A' falls down, we don't have a replacement for Silva or Yaya Toure.

We find Balotelli playing where Utd would have Giggs, Young or Nani, then getting slaugtered for not being any good at it.

[PeterParker]

I'm rerferring to Ferguson as of today & the reason I didn't mention Aguero is because he is someone Bob has signed which has worked. The others we could have done without. I could have added Savic, AJ, Boateng if it was purely about listing signings which don't fit, I'm just giving a few examples of top quality players who we don't really use properly & who we could have not bothered signing.

Yes and no with Aguero. He was spitting fire when he arrived here, but like every signing we had, he went on the downfall. He is still class, but i don't know how good he will be the next season.

Another two examples are Milner and Nasri. The first one made his debut with Scouse, at that 3-0 and looked stellar. He was the main reason we won without any problems & Nasri, just remember his Spurs game. 3 or 4 assist, cracking game, maybe the reason we won 5-1.

All i am saying is that those players became shadows of what they were because of what Bob tried with them. There are two many examples here to say that they didn't accommodated with the new team. Something went wrong in the way he trained them.

I agree but the point I am making is that if we decide on what our pattern(s) of play are going to be, then we sign players who are amongst the world's best at implementing those patterns, then when players lose form, we just bench them & bring in someone equally adept. Sometimes as a variation we've played a kind of 4-4-2 with people like Silva or Milner trying to do the kind of job Valencia would be doing. Yet when our plan 'A' falls down, we don't have a replacement for Silva or Yaya Toure.

We find Balotelli playing where Utd would have Giggs, Young or Nani, then getting slaugtered for not being any good at it.

Yes, i agree 100 % with that, but my fear is that any player that we decide to buy, in which we have full confidence that he will deliver, will fail, just because he will have the same scenario as the ones i've mentioned above. It all comes down to training and motivating them, no just rotate them without any logic.

I am still convinced that we have one of the best wingers in the league, Aj, who isn't used the right way as a winger, but is instead trained like an attacking midfielder.

[Ted Hughes]

I personally think most of Mancini's training has worked perfectly but some players he has allocated certain jobs to are not suitable for those jobs. I also think he has overcomplicated things too early. The squad need to get certain things right before moving on to something else but we keep changing, even when it works.

The thing with giving a manager time though is that he gets to find out about his players & his formations. What tends to happen is that everyone just assumes the bloke doesn't know what he's doing, rather than the case that it's too late, in the middle of a season, to fully address everything & it has to be done when the competition has finished.

The key is that we find out what the manager does to solve it when given the chance at the end of the season.

If the players have lost confidence in him however, that goes out of the window. We will find out how he stands soon.

[Chinners]

Where is the wag to go along with this bollocks?

Strong point, well made.

[Beefymcfc]

I'm rerferring to Ferguson as of today & the reason I didn't mention Aguero is because he is someone Bob has signed which has worked. The others we could have done without. I could have added Savic, AJ, Boateng if it was purely about listing signings which don't fit, I'm just giving a few examples of top quality players who we don't really use properly & who we could have not bothered signing.

Ferguson btw wouldn't be considered good enough for the City job if he was still at Aberdeen & there would be no chance of him being given time to learn from his mistakes if he did get the job (see Hughes).

Your use of the phrase 'fitting them into' is exactly what I'm talking about.

I have seen Silva played as a shit winger, Nasri played as a shit winger & Milner played as a shit winger as well as AJ played as a non crossing winger on his wrong foot & Kolarov as a shit winger or shit wing back.

Most of us (I suspect including you) would have, at some point, signed a proper winger & tried it with him instead.

Plan 'A' at it's best has produced some of the best fotball we have ever seen but as soon as we need something different, for most of the time it's been square pegs in round holes.

Nice to read all that Ted but the point I was making was that if the powers that be, whether that be Marwood or Cook, could've got rid of the likes of Tevez et al, then it would've opened up funds that Mancini clearly wanted to spend. We know he was in for Sanchez, who is a very good wing player, possibly others, and you've mentioned he's tried different players to fulfil that role to little avail. That alone states that he tried to give himself a plan B but due to player acquisition/ability it actually hindered his progress.

Don't get me wrong here mate, I'm not trying to back Mancini, as I haven't 100% since we appointed him, but I thought it prevelant to look at all factors rather than just labour on the usual 'He's got it wrong'. As you say, a lot of the football we've seen this season has been exquisite so now referring to a few away games where we didn't quite pass the test or certain players not being able to adapt to different positions seems a little, well, petty.

Oh, and the Taggart comparisons, why, just why; is he coming to us? People keep throwing these people into debates as if we should be comparing like for like when the reality is that when he was building his team, at the same stage, was nowhere near where Mancini is. It's as if people are using these names to try and inflate a point when in reality you cannot compare Taggart and his 25 years at the Swamp to Mancini and his 2 years here.

[Ted Hughes]

I'm rerferring to Ferguson as of today & the reason I didn't mention Aguero is because he is someone Bob has signed which has worked. The others we could have done without. I could have added Savic, AJ, Boateng if it was purely about listing signings which don't fit, I'm just giving a few examples of top quality players who we don't really use properly & who we could have not bothered signing.

Ferguson btw wouldn't be considered good enough for the City job if he was still at Aberdeen & there would be no chance of him being given time to learn from his mistakes if he did get the job (see Hughes).

Your use of the phrase 'fitting them into' is exactly what I'm talking about.

I have seen Silva played as a shit winger, Nasri played as a shit winger & Milner played as a shit winger as well as AJ played as a non crossing winger on his wrong foot & Kolarov as a shit winger or shit wing back.

Most of us (I suspect including you) would have, at some point, signed a proper winger & tried it with him instead.

Plan 'A' at it's best has produced some of the best fotball we have ever seen but as soon as we need something different, for most of the time it's been square pegs in round holes.

Nice to read all that Ted but the point I was making was that if the powers that be, whether that be Marwood or Cook, could've got rid of the likes of Tevez et al, then it would've opened up funds that Mancini clearly wanted to spend. We know he was in for Sanchez, who is a very good wing player, possibly others, and you've mentioned he's tried different players to fulfil that role to little avail. That alone states that he tried to give himself a plan B but due to player acquisition/ability it actually hindered his progress.

Don't get me wrong here mate, I'm not trying to back Mancini, as I haven't 100% since we appointed him, but I thought it prevelant to look at all factors rather than just labour on the usual 'He's got it wrong'. As you say, a lot of the football we've seen this season has been exquisite so now referring to a few away games where we didn't quite pass the test or certain players not being able to adapt to different positions seems a little, well, petty.

Oh, and the Taggart comparisons, why, just why; is he coming to us? People keep throwing these people into debates as if we should be comparing like for like when the reality is that when he was building his team, at the same stage, was nowhere near where Mancini is. It's as if people are using these names to try and inflate a point when in reality you cannot compare Taggart and his 25 years at the Swamp to Mancini and his 2 years here.

That's a bit like saying we can't learn from Barcelona.

Samuel made the point that he thought Utd's squad was better than ours.

I was making the point that it isn't, but because of the way Ferguson operates, he signs players who fit into what he requires then signs another, and another their squad is better equipeed to cover their deficiencies & stay fresh to produce their style of football, than ours is to produce ours.

Ferguson's one bollock was not signing a replacement for Scholes but his budget for doing so was much more limited than Mancini's & his priority was making sure he never ran out of wingers/ set piece deliverers.

[Im_Spartacus]

Nice to read all that Ted but the point I was making was that if the powers that be, whether that be Marwood or Cook, could've got rid of the likes of Tevez et al, then it would've opened up funds that Mancini clearly wanted to spend. We know he was in for Sanchez, who is a very good wing player, possibly others, and you've mentioned he's tried different players to fulfil that role to little avail. That alone states that he tried to give himself a plan B but due to player acquisition/ability it actually hindered his progress.

Don't get me wrong here mate, I'm not trying to back Mancini, as I haven't 100% since we appointed him, but I thought it prevelant to look at all factors rather than just labour on the usual 'He's got it wrong'. As you say, a lot of the football we've seen this season has been exquisite so now referring to a few away games where we didn't quite pass the test or certain players not being able to adapt to different positions seems a little, well, petty.

Oh, and the Taggart comparisons, why, just why; is he coming to us? People keep throwing these people into debates as if we should be comparing like for like when the reality is that when he was building his team, at the same stage, was nowhere near where Mancini is. It's as if people are using these names to try and inflate a point when in reality you cannot compare Taggart and his 25 years at the Swamp to Mancini and his 2 years here.

We had best all go away for a decade then eh, because there is nobody in the game fit to lace bacons boots.

Bacon is mentioned because he is the opposition, because despite havinga poor squad on paper, his signings last summer, although derided in some quarters, have worked very well. How come they didnt need this mystical "gelling" time which our two "world class" imports apparently need, yet their signings in the summer fit straight in, have had some hiccups, but appear to be on course to win the league in their first season?

[Beefymcfc]

I'm rerferring to Ferguson as of today & the reason I didn't mention Aguero is because he is someone Bob has signed which has worked. The others we could have done without. I could have added Savic, AJ, Boateng if it was purely about listing signings which don't fit, I'm just giving a few examples of top quality players who we don't really use properly & who we could have not bothered signing.

Ferguson btw wouldn't be considered good enough for the City job if he was still at Aberdeen & there would be no chance of him being given time to learn from his mistakes if he did get the job (see Hughes).

Your use of the phrase 'fitting them into' is exactly what I'm talking about.

I have seen Silva played as a shit winger, Nasri played as a shit winger & Milner played as a shit winger as well as AJ played as a non crossing winger on his wrong foot & Kolarov as a shit winger or shit wing back.

Most of us (I suspect including you) would have, at some point, signed a proper winger & tried it with him instead.

Plan 'A' at it's best has produced some of the best fotball we have ever seen but as soon as we need something different, for most of the time it's been square pegs in round holes.

Nice to read all that Ted but the point I was making was that if the powers that be, whether that be Marwood or Cook, could've got rid of the likes of Tevez et al, then it would've opened up funds that Mancini clearly wanted to spend. We know he was in for Sanchez, who is a very good wing player, possibly others, and you've mentioned he's tried different players to fulfil that role to little avail. That alone states that he tried to give himself a plan B but due to player acquisition/ability it actually hindered his progress.

Don't get me wrong here mate, I'm not trying to back Mancini, as I haven't 100% since we appointed him, but I thought it prevelant to look at all factors rather than just labour on the usual 'He's got it wrong'. As you say, a lot of the football we've seen this season has been exquisite so now referring to a few away games where we didn't quite pass the test or certain players not being able to adapt to different positions seems a little, well, petty.

Oh, and the Taggart comparisons, why, just why; is he coming to us? People keep throwing these people into debates as if we should be comparing like for like when the reality is that when he was building his team, at the same stage, was nowhere near where Mancini is. It's as if people are using these names to try and inflate a point when in reality you cannot compare Taggart and his 25 years at the Swamp to Mancini and his 2 years here.

That's a bit like saying we can't learn from Barcelona.

Samuel made the point that he thought Utd's squad was better than ours.

I was making the point that it isn't, but because of the way Ferguson operates, he signs players who fit into what he requires then signs another, and another their squad is better equipeed to cover their deficiencies & stay fresh to produce their style of football, than ours is to produce ours.

Ferguson's one bollock was not signing a replacement for Scholes but his budget for doing so was much more limited than Mancini's & his priority was making sure he never ran out of wingers/ set piece deliverers.

I actually think United's squad is better as well and the reason he can sign a player to fit into his system is because he's had 25 years to perfect it.

The biggest thing that Taggart has got though is experience in the dressing room as well as on the training ground, which we haven't built up yet. With him keeping the likes of Scholes, Giggs et al to teach the understanding of 'The United Way' it adds hugely to their mentality. The Ferdinand's and, not so long ago, the Neville's of this world all bring something to their squad where we haven't got that as such yet and is why we were so keen to keep Paddy on our books. Maybe in 10 years we'll have players like Micah and Joe explaining to the new players what it's like to undertake a Championship run and what to expect but until then we are just going to have to learn as we go along and hope that the experience makes us stronger, mentally and physically.

[Beefymcfc]

Nice to read all that Ted but the point I was making was that if the powers that be, whether that be Marwood or Cook, could've got rid of the likes of Tevez et al, then it would've opened up funds that Mancini clearly wanted to spend. We know he was in for Sanchez, who is a very good wing player, possibly others, and you've mentioned he's tried different players to fulfil that role to little avail. That alone states that he tried to give himself a plan B but due to player acquisition/ability it actually hindered his progress.

Don't get me wrong here mate, I'm not trying to back Mancini, as I haven't 100% since we appointed him, but I thought it prevelant to look at all factors rather than just labour on the usual 'He's got it wrong'. As you say, a lot of the football we've seen this season has been exquisite so now referring to a few away games where we didn't quite pass the test or certain players not being able to adapt to different positions seems a little, well, petty.

Oh, and the Taggart comparisons, why, just why; is he coming to us? People keep throwing these people into debates as if we should be comparing like for like when the reality is that when he was building his team, at the same stage, was nowhere near where Mancini is. It's as if people are using these names to try and inflate a point when in reality you cannot compare Taggart and his 25 years at the Swamp to Mancini and his 2 years here.

We had best all go away for a decade then eh, because there is nobody in the game fit to lace bacons boots.

Bacon is mentioned because he is the opposition, because despite havinga poor squad on paper, his signings last summer, although derided in some quarters, have worked very well. How come they didnt need this mystical "gelling" time which our two "world class" imports apparently need, yet their signings in the summer fit straight in, have had some hiccups, but appear to be on course to win the league in their first season?

What's a matter, have I just pissed on your head and told you it's raining? Go away for 10 years?

You want it now and nothing is going to change that opinion for you. Mourinho is here next season, I'm not going to change that for you either. You want Mancini sacked, have it your way.

You asked what my opinions were on another thread and if you decide to read what I've written through this one and debate those points without coming back without childish and flippant comments, then I'm happy to debate pal.

[Ted Hughes]

I'm rerferring to Ferguson as of today & the reason I didn't mention Aguero is because he is someone Bob has signed which has worked. The others we could have done without. I could have added Savic, AJ, Boateng if it was purely about listing signings which don't fit, I'm just giving a few examples of top quality players who we don't really use properly & who we could have not bothered signing.

Ferguson btw wouldn't be considered good enough for the City job if he was still at Aberdeen & there would be no chance of him being given time to learn from his mistakes if he did get the job (see Hughes).

Your use of the phrase 'fitting them into' is exactly what I'm talking about.

I have seen Silva played as a shit winger, Nasri played as a shit winger & Milner played as a shit winger as well as AJ played as a non crossing winger on his wrong foot & Kolarov as a shit winger or shit wing back.

Most of us (I suspect including you) would have, at some point, signed a proper winger & tried it with him instead.

Plan 'A' at it's best has produced some of the best fotball we have ever seen but as soon as we need something different, for most of the time it's been square pegs in round holes.

Nice to read all that Ted but the point I was making was that if the powers that be, whether that be Marwood or Cook, could've got rid of the likes of Tevez et al, then it would've opened up funds that Mancini clearly wanted to spend. We know he was in for Sanchez, who is a very good wing player, possibly others, and you've mentioned he's tried different players to fulfil that role to little avail. That alone states that he tried to give himself a plan B but due to player acquisition/ability it actually hindered his progress.

Don't get me wrong here mate, I'm not trying to back Mancini, as I haven't 100% since we appointed him, but I thought it prevelant to look at all factors rather than just labour on the usual 'He's got it wrong'. As you say, a lot of the football we've seen this season has been exquisite so now referring to a few away games where we didn't quite pass the test or certain players not being able to adapt to different positions seems a little, well, petty.

Oh, and the Taggart comparisons, why, just why; is he coming to us? People keep throwing these people into debates as if we should be comparing like for like when the reality is that when he was building his team, at the same stage, was nowhere near where Mancini is. It's as if people are using these names to try and inflate a point when in reality you cannot compare Taggart and his 25 years at the Swamp to Mancini and his 2 years here.

That's a bit like saying we can't learn from Barcelona.

Samuel made the point that he thought Utd's squad was better than ours.

I was making the point that it isn't, but because of the way Ferguson operates, he signs players who fit into what he requires then signs another, and another their squad is better equipeed to cover their deficiencies & stay fresh to produce their style of football, than ours is to produce ours.

Ferguson's one bollock was not signing a replacement for Scholes but his budget for doing so was much more limited than Mancini's & his priority was making sure he never ran out of wingers/ set piece deliverers.

I actually think United's squad is better as well and the reason he can sign a player to fit into his system is because he's had 25 years to perfect it.

The biggest thing that Taggart has got though is experience in the dressing room as well as on the training ground, which we haven't built up yet. With him keeping the likes of Scholes, Giggs et al to teach the understanding of 'The United Way' it adds hugely to their mentality. The Ferdinand's and, not so long ago, the Neville's of this world all bring something to their squad where we haven't got that as such yet and is why we were so keen to keep Paddy on our books. Maybe in 10 years we'll have players like Micah and Joe explaining to the new players what it's like to undertake a Championship run and what to expect but until then we are just going to have to learn as we go along and hope that the experience makes us stronger, mentally and physically.

It's true but we have to develop a 'way' for them to tell everyone about & the 'way' we played at Arsenal bore no resemblence to the 'way' we played at OT, because we don't have a replacement for Silva.

Ferguson relys on wingers, so he signs loads of them. We rely on Silva & Toure but don't have a replacement for either.

[DoomMerchant]

thank fuck we've figured out that Mancini is a fantastic manager.

I was worried that he was the cold, impersonal, fearful, vindictive cocksucker that lost us the league this season.

Just...yknow..."sayin."

[Beefymcfc]

It's true but we have to develop a 'way' for them to tell everyone about & the 'way' we played at Arsenal bore no resemblence to the 'way' we played at OT, because we don't have a replacement for Silva.

Ferguson relys on wingers, so he signs loads of them. We rely on Silva & Toure but don't have a replacement for either.

You're right mate and that is something that will have to be addressed in the summer, Mancini or not. The club know their shortfalls already and Mancini's concerns have proved right and even though I slated him at the time I could see where he was coming from come January.

We're not going to get replacements for the likes of Yaya and Silva though, or any of our star players for that matter, but what they will be doing is looking at suitable alternatives and other influential players for the Plan B, which will enable our current squad to be rested. I'm not trying to teach people to suck eggs as we all know that this can only be achieved by getting rid of the dead wood. Who that dead wood is, is another matter and it will take a lot of haggling by the club to get rid of some of them.

To be honest with you, Taggart hasn't got that many wingers and without Valencia during the first few months of the season, they looked distinctly average; they also lost a bit of their spark when Young was out for a while. Valencia for me has been their inspiration this season, a player that has changed games single handedly and forced them on. The difference is that even though they only have 2 decent winger's, even when they are out they can change the system to similar to ours and have Evra and that Silva lad run the wings. But, you already know that.

[Beefymcfc]

thank fuck we've figured out that Mancini is a fantastic manager.

I was worried that he was the cold, impersonal, fearful, vindictive cocksucker that lost us the league this season.

Just...yknow..."sayin."

Fuck me, we've got another one!

I think you're bang on the money there though.

[Ted Hughes]

It's true but we have to develop a 'way' for them to tell everyone about & the 'way' we played at Arsenal bore no resemblence to the 'way' we played at OT, because we don't have a replacement for Silva.

Ferguson relys on wingers, so he signs loads of them. We rely on Silva & Toure but don't have a replacement for either.

You're right mate and that is something that will have to be addressed in the summer, Mancini or not. The club know their shortfalls already and Mancini's concerns have proved right and even though I slated him at the time I could see where he was coming from come January.

We're not going to get replacements for the likes of Yaya and Silva though, or any of our star players for that matter, but what they will be doing is looking at suitable alternatives and other influential players for the Plan B, which will enable our current squad to be rested. I'm not trying to teach people to suck eggs as we all know that this can only be achieved by getting rid of the dead wood. Who that dead wood is, is another matter and it will take a lot of haggling by the club to get rid of some of them.

To be honest with you, Taggart hasn't got that many wingers and without Valencia during the first few months of the season, they looked distinctly average; they also lost a bit of their spark when Young was out for a while. Valencia for me has been their inspiration this season, a player that has changed games single handedly and forced them on. The difference is that even though they only have 2 decent winger's, even when they are out they can change the system to similar to ours and have Evra and that Silva lad run the wings. But, you already know that.

Ferguson has Valencia, Young, Nani & Giggs, who are all expert wide players & great crossers of the ball.

[Beefymcfc]

It's true but we have to develop a 'way' for them to tell everyone about & the 'way' we played at Arsenal bore no resemblence to the 'way' we played at OT, because we don't have a replacement for Silva.

Ferguson relys on wingers, so he signs loads of them. We rely on Silva & Toure but don't have a replacement for either.

You're right mate and that is something that will have to be addressed in the summer, Mancini or not. The club know their shortfalls already and Mancini's concerns have proved right and even though I slated him at the time I could see where he was coming from come January.

We're not going to get replacements for the likes of Yaya and Silva though, or any of our star players for that matter, but what they will be doing is looking at suitable alternatives and other influential players for the Plan B, which will enable our current squad to be rested. I'm not trying to teach people to suck eggs as we all know that this can only be achieved by getting rid of the dead wood. Who that dead wood is, is another matter and it will take a lot of haggling by the club to get rid of some of them.

To be honest with you, Taggart hasn't got that many wingers and without Valencia during the first few months of the season, they looked distinctly average; they also lost a bit of their spark when Young was out for a while. Valencia for me has been their inspiration this season, a player that has changed games single handedly and forced them on. The difference is that even though they only have 2 decent winger's, even when they are out they can change the system to similar to ours and have Evra and that Silva lad run the wings. But, you already know that.

Ferguson has Valencia, Young, Nani & Giggs, who are all expert wide players & great crossers of the ball.

The first 2 yes, but I'd class Nani not as an out-and-out winger, more a Tranny type player who prefers to cut inside and have a shot. His assists from wing play are minimal. Giggs plays in the middle now that his legs have gone and it's not often you see him hoofing down the wings.

[Ted Hughes]

It's true but we have to develop a 'way' for them to tell everyone about & the 'way' we played at Arsenal bore no resemblence to the 'way' we played at OT, because we don't have a replacement for Silva.

Ferguson relys on wingers, so he signs loads of them. We rely on Silva & Toure but don't have a replacement for either.

You're right mate and that is something that will have to be addressed in the summer, Mancini or not. The club know their shortfalls already and Mancini's concerns have proved right and even though I slated him at the time I could see where he was coming from come January.

We're not going to get replacements for the likes of Yaya and Silva though, or any of our star players for that matter, but what they will be doing is looking at suitable alternatives and other influential players for the Plan B, which will enable our current squad to be rested. I'm not trying to teach people to suck eggs as we all know that this can only be achieved by getting rid of the dead wood. Who that dead wood is, is another matter and it will take a lot of haggling by the club to get rid of some of them.

To be honest with you, Taggart hasn't got that many wingers and without Valencia during the first few months of the season, they looked distinctly average; they also lost a bit of their spark when Young was out for a while. Valencia for me has been their inspiration this season, a player that has changed games single handedly and forced them on. The difference is that even though they only have 2 decent winger's, even when they are out they can change the system to similar to ours and have Evra and that Silva lad run the wings. But, you already know that.

Ferguson has Valencia, Young, Nani & Giggs, who are all expert wide players & great crossers of the ball.

The first 2 yes, but I'd class Nani not as an out-and-out winger, more a Tranny type player who prefers to cut inside and have a shot. His assists from wing play are minimal. Giggs plays in the middle now that his legs have gone and it's not often you see him hoofing down the wings.

Not hoofing up & down, no, but he drifts out there, gives the option & puts a better ball in than anyone in our whole squad bar Kolarov, as does Nani. Many of their crucial goals have been scored from Giggs doing exacly that, or taking up other wide atacking positions, scoring etc frm crosses coming from the other side.

[Beefymcfc]

It's true but we have to develop a 'way' for them to tell everyone about & the 'way' we played at Arsenal bore no resemblence to the 'way' we played at OT, because we don't have a replacement for Silva.

Ferguson relys on wingers, so he signs loads of them. We rely on Silva & Toure but don't have a replacement for either.

You're right mate and that is something that will have to be addressed in the summer, Mancini or not. The club know their shortfalls already and Mancini's concerns have proved right and even though I slated him at the time I could see where he was coming from come January.

We're not going to get replacements for the likes of Yaya and Silva though, or any of our star players for that matter, but what they will be doing is looking at suitable alternatives and other influential players for the Plan B, which will enable our current squad to be rested. I'm not trying to teach people to suck eggs as we all know that this can only be achieved by getting rid of the dead wood. Who that dead wood is, is another matter and it will take a lot of haggling by the club to get rid of some of them.

To be honest with you, Taggart hasn't got that many wingers and without Valencia during the first few months of the season, they looked distinctly average; they also lost a bit of their spark when Young was out for a while. Valencia for me has been their inspiration this season, a player that has changed games single handedly and forced them on. The difference is that even though they only have 2 decent winger's, even when they are out they can change the system to similar to ours and have Evra and that Silva lad run the wings. But, you already know that.

Ferguson has Valencia, Young, Nani & Giggs, who are all expert wide players & great crossers of the ball.

The first 2 yes, but I'd class Nani not as an out-and-out winger, more a Tranny type player who prefers to cut inside and have a shot. His assists from wing play are minimal. Giggs plays in the middle now that his legs have gone and it's not often you see him hoofing down the wings.

Not hoofing up & down, no, but he drifts out there, gives the option & puts a better ball in than anyone in our whole squad bar Kolarov, as does Nani. Many of their crucial goals have been scored from Giggs doing exacly that, or taking up other wide atacking positions, scoring etc frm crosses coming from the other side.

You're getting no disagreement from me mate, they've at least got the options which we desperately miss.

[Im_Spartacus]

Nice to read all that Ted but the point I was making was that if the powers that be, whether that be Marwood or Cook, could've got rid of the likes of Tevez et al, then it would've opened up funds that Mancini clearly wanted to spend. We know he was in for Sanchez, who is a very good wing player, possibly others, and you've mentioned he's tried different players to fulfil that role to little avail. That alone states that he tried to give himself a plan B but due to player acquisition/ability it actually hindered his progress.

Don't get me wrong here mate, I'm not trying to back Mancini, as I haven't 100% since we appointed him, but I thought it prevelant to look at all factors rather than just labour on the usual 'He's got it wrong'. As you say, a lot of the football we've seen this season has been exquisite so now referring to a few away games where we didn't quite pass the test or certain players not being able to adapt to different positions seems a little, well, petty.

Oh, and the Taggart comparisons, why, just why; is he coming to us? People keep throwing these people into debates as if we should be comparing like for like when the reality is that when he was building his team, at the same stage, was nowhere near where Mancini is. It's as if people are using these names to try and inflate a point when in reality you cannot compare Taggart and his 25 years at the Swamp to Mancini and his 2 years here.

We had best all go away for a decade then eh, because there is nobody in the game fit to lace bacons boots.

What's a matter, have I just pissed on your head and told you it's raining? Go away for 10 years?

You want it now and nothing is going to change that opinion for you. Mourinho is here next season, I'm not going to change that for you either. You want Mancini sacked, have it your way.

You asked what my opinions were on another thread and if you decide to read what I've written through this one and debate those points without coming back without childish and flippant comments, then I'm happy to debate pal.

You seem to be suggesting that there is no way you can compare where Man United are and where we are, because they have had a manager for the last 25 years.

My issue is that every time there is justified criticism of a Manchester City manager, I have over the years had an absolute titful of people banging on about how much time things take, whether it is to integrate new players, to learn a style of play or whatever, look at Fergie, he took x years and look at him now - all bollocks, all excuses to prolong the tenure of someone who keeps proving he hasn't got the balls for a fight, so he can capitulate next season, and the one after.

Bacon managed to integrate the 3/4 new signings immediately into his champions elect - yet someone the other day said that Silva, Milner, Balotelli, Dzeko, coming in well over a year ago is the reason over our team hasn't gelled - excuses again.

It is nothing to do with wanting it now, it is to do with seeing major tactical ineptitude repeat itself game after game, allied to a defeatist mentality we have seen all too often from Mancini when things get tight.

Dreaming of a 10 year + dynasty of success........aside from United, show me one that has worked in the modern game - then show me AC Milan's and Real Madrid's trophy cabinet. We are yearning for something that happens once in a generation across a continent. As a result there is this constant clamour from a sizeable group of City fans to be like united and keep a manager in case he turns out like ferguson - when the likelihood of that happening is so remote its not even funny.

[DoomMerchant]

thank fuck we've figured out that Mancini is a fantastic manager.

I was worried that he was the cold, impersonal, fearful, vindictive cocksucker that lost us the league this season.

Just...yknow..."sayin."

Fuck me, we've got another one!

I think you're bang on the money there though.

"we're gonna need a bigger boat"

cheers