An end to coefficients?

[Piccsnumberoneblue]

I have separated this post as it is mainly considered specuation which I though might be useful to chick into the mix.

The common perception seems to be that UeFa have always been the bad boys acting on behalf of the old G14. This is not necessarily always the case. There have been a number of battles between the G14 and Uefa, many of which UeFA have lost due to court rulings and/or coercion from the G14. Sometimes UeFA have managed to dilute the more hard line demands of the G!4 (now ECA).

We know that the the current powerful clubs have been discussing a new breakaway league, probably set for 2018 when the current "Memorandum of Understanding finishes and it is highly likely that UeFA are now moving to stop it, We know that the G14 ideally want 20 clubs to set this up and there are 11 clubs definitely in favour of a Euro super league and we know their reasons. Those reasons don't necessarily hold up for other clubs and without other clubs' support, a super league would fail before it began

Attacking debt and equalising the coefficients would benefit all but the most greedy and powerful and may be enough to stop othe club's support for a breakaway.

I would love to hear you expand on this.
It is true that when Platini took office there was plenty of rhetoric about taking back power to UEFA from G14. Since then he has appeared to cave in on every issue and consequently been accused of being their puppet.
Maybe when you consider the original G14 clubs and where they find themselves now (particularly the Milan clubs) it is a good time for UEFA to be on the front foot.
I still think Gill's influence will prevent the shite falling foul of any new rules.

[DoomMerchant]

I have separated this post as it is mainly considered specuation which I though might be useful to chick into the mix.

The common perception seems to be that UeFa have always been the bad boys acting on behalf of the old G14. This is not necessarily always the case. There have been a number of battles between the G14 and Uefa, many of which UeFA have lost due to court rulings and/or coercion from the G14. Sometimes UeFA have managed to dilute the more hard line demands of the G!4 (now ECA).

We know that the the current powerful clubs have been discussing a new breakaway league, probably set for 2018 when the current "Memorandum of Understanding finishes and it is highly likely that UeFA are now moving to stop it, We know that the G14 ideally want 20 clubs to set this up and there are 11 clubs definitely in favour of a Euro super league and we know their reasons. Those reasons don't necessarily hold up for other clubs and without other clubs' support, a super league would fail before it began

Attacking debt and equalising the coefficients would benefit all but the most greedy and powerful and may be enough to stop othe club's support for a breakaway.

I would love to hear you expand on this.
It is true that when Platini took office there was plenty of rhetoric about taking back power to UEFA from G14. Since then he has appeared to cave in on every issue and consequently been accused of being their puppet.
Maybe when you consider the original G14 clubs and where they find themselves now (particularly the Milan clubs) it is a good time for UEFA to be on the front foot.
I still think Gill's influence will prevent the shite falling foul of any new rules.

septic translation beings...now:

basically Ole Man 68's saying...re-setup the CL to be more like what the "other 9", whomever they might be at any given time, would like in any Super League, thereby cock-blocking the setup of that league in advance.

And Roger is saying " i dunno John, i think Gill would make sure that the Rags don't have a debt criteria involved in any UEFA setup for the new CL because it would fuck them, and he's their puppet."

amiclose?

just trying to keep up.

cheers

[john68]

Lev,

Whilst you are correct that any new league would need to have a serious TV deal behind it, that would only be a small part of one ingredient. Football is global, the prem is no longer an English league (and hasn't been for a number of years), it is a global league that takes place in England. The TV deal that rewards Prem clubs comes only partly from Sky and BT whilst the rest of the huge income comes fromselling games on globally throughout the World. Add to that the global sponsors and partners and we are talking billions, possibly more for just one league that takes place here. Multiply that throughout Europe and we are talking even more serious money.
Consider that the 60K-70K fans who turn up to the swamp at home games, multiply that figure over the full season and realise that, that figure is dwarfed in a single week by the TV audience of one game in China. Fans attending games brings in a tiny percentage of the rags income.

Consider also that this serious money that is earned by the Prem over a whole season, takes in games such as Palace v QPR, WBA v WHU, Stoke v Burnley etc. In other Leagues, they suffer even worse when there are only 2/3 major clubs that dominate their leagues every season.

A Euro super league would replace those nonsense financial fixtures with top quality, huge branded clubs, attracting the best global players, on a week to week basis. Burnley v QPR or Barca v Bayern? Who would the world watch and which fixture would earn the most income?

[john68]

Lev,

I don't know if attending fans are reaching saturation point but it is hardly a big deal in the financial scheme of things mate. Match attendees are an ever decreasing percentage of a club's total revenue.

I said quite openly a number of years ago when the new Wembly was being built that I would not have been surprised had the rags moved to become the resident football club their. The argument I used was compelling. Their present swamp location and even the name Manchester are an encumbrance to the global rag brand. I am quite certain that if it wasn't for the fact that there were many other Uniteds in the \English leagues, they would have dropped Manchester, as they did FC to give them control of the one word United global. branding.

Moving from England or any other country may upset the locals but in reality, would their American owners (or Russian) truly give a flying fuck if any of those teams played anywhere in the world as long as their were strong transport links worldwide?

These clubs are global brands, seeking a global markets. Forget tradition, heritage, history and local fans. Thjese clubs could be Tesco, Exxon, Nike, Coca Cola, or Ford.

As the rags boss once said, (and this would apply to any of those greedy bastards) "The playing of football is merely coincidental to the business of Manchester United"

[john68]

Piccs,

It is important to understand that UeFA have no power of their own. Their power comes from the willingness of the clubs themselves to be a part of it. UeFA is ruled by its committees which have increasingly become controlled by those powerful big clubs. Platini's actual power is negligable without the cooperation of those clubs. In any battle, he cannot succeed without the support of those clubs. That is quite simply the way it is. The only power Platini could ever exert is his influence and strength of argument.

Platini is a puppet, that's is the way it was designed to work. He complies with the wishes of the clubs and generally does as he is told. In fairness, he has fought a number of battles against the old G14, but mostly lost. On occasion, he has won a few and sometimes managed to dilute the demands of the big clubs. People credit him with having far more power than he actually has.

His main argument in the past when being threatened has been to state categorically that he represents every European club, not just the rich few. He won the battle when he refused to defer to the G14 on policy matters...but that got us the ECA, which the rich clubs also now control and because of its wider membership, is a far more powerful organisation.

Thefailures of the rags, Liverpool, the long term trophiless Arsenal, partial demises of the Milan clubs may semm important in footballing terms but football has little or nothing top do with any of this. It is all about money and brands and all of those relatively failed clubs remain global monsters with global income potentials.

[john68]

Doomie.

I hope those previous posts answer your questions too Mate.

If not, feel free to go again.

[Mikhail Chigorin]

Piccs,

It is important to understand that UeFA have no power of their own. Their power comes from the willingness of the clubs themselves to be a part of it. UeFA is ruled by its committees which have increasingly become controlled by those powerful big clubs. Platini's actual power is negligable without the cooperation of those clubs. In any battle, he cannot succeed without the support of those clubs. That is quite simply the way it is. The only power Platini could ever exert is his influence and strength of argument.

Platini is a puppet, that's is the way it was designed to work. He complies with the wishes of the clubs and generally does as he is told. In fairness, he has fought a number of battles against the old G14, but mostly lost. On occasion, he has won a few and sometimes managed to dilute the demands of the big clubs. People credit him with having far more power than he actually has.

His main argument in the past when being threatened has been to state categorically that he represents every European club, not just the rich few. He won the battle when he refused to defer to the G14 on policy matters...but that got us the ECA, which the rich clubs also now control and because of its wider membership, is a far more powerful organisation.

Thefailures of the rags, Liverpool, the long term trophiless Arsenal, partial demises of the Milan clubs may semm important in footballing terms but football has little or nothing top do with any of this. It is all about money and brands and all of those relatively failed clubs remain global monsters with global income potentials.

Steady on John; you're almost making Platini out to be a sort of modern day, footballing Don Quixote.

You'll have people feeling some sympathy for the detestably fat French muppet.

PS A fantastic series of posts, by the way.

[Lev Bronstein]

John:
I see your point about Platini, I agree that originally gave the impression that he saw the power of the G14 as a problem and tried to dilute it. In theory FFP and limiting squad sizes is an attempt to level the playing field for smaller European clubs. Alas, it hasn't worked out that way.

As for the ECA splitting off from UEFA, well it's a possibility. I merely point out that it's a road fraught with problems.

One of the things that attracts the corporate world to football is that the paying customers, us fans, are a captive market. Despite the massive increase in the cost of watching the game, both attending matches and watching on TV, we still fork out £millions. I think the economists call it "inelasticity of demand". In other words demand isn't price sensitive (if any economists amongst you think I've got it wrong, feel free to correct me). We have loyalties that are economically irrational. If I've got £200 to spend on going to football, I'd rather watch four City games than a whole season of Stockport County. Not just because the quality is rubbish at County, but, City are my club. Remember, when we got relegated to Div 3 (in old money) the crowds at Maine Rd went up! (Mind you, pricing out teenagers and young adults may have long term consequences, we'll see)

So, what has this got to do with the price of fish? Winning the domestic league is still the most important trophy for fans. Winning the CL would be great, and I hope to see us win it someday, but it doesn't define my football life as much the Prem does.. A breakaway league just doesn't hold the same attraction, and I don't think I'm on my own. (Although, a European League would solve Barca's problems in the event of Catalonian independence, and might release Ajax from the "prison" of the Dutch league).

Now, the money men who run the game may still decide to cut themselves off from national leagues, and in the short term make it pay. But, we are the cow that gives milk no matter how many times we are milked. Breakaway and the tits might dry up.

[Wooders]

I see in the guardian today we have sent sorano to talk to platini and basically we have played the same game as the arse and man u and "told sir" - unfair to not include debt in ffp calculation and not on to allow liverpool and roma to qualify for CL without proving ffp just because they werent in europe last season
And whilst we were there he also discussed the ludicrous notion that substainable investment is banned and argued this does not allow clubs to prosper

[Piccsnumberoneblue]

When you look at the G14 clubs you realise that they really are only a snap shot in time. Lyon, PSV, Valencia are no longer important players. Milan clubs are not only struggling in football terms but also financially. You could argue that we are more important in terms of European football and maybe world wide too. Do Bayer Leverkusen mean more commercially than us? I doubt it.
I do wonder if champions League football's attraction is not over estimated. In any league there are teams at the top and teams struggling and a mid table clash is just as pointless no matter what the names of the clubs involved. Match day revenue matters enough for Arsenal to incur millions of pounds of debt to build the Emirates, merely because they were falling so far behind on United in that area. Each game being worth two to three million pounds at the gate. Not to be sniffed at even in this day and age.

[john@staustell]

The end of the coefficients is well documented recently, so no surprise there. To be honest Arsenal seem to be a sort of lone club (since Dein went), out of step with everybody else, not won the league since Noah was a lad and still in pot one. Annoys the shit out of everybody in Europe, so this is easy to see.

As for the other stuff it's quite interesting what was 'discussed' yesterday. There's obviously enormous pressure from a large number of clubs, not just the financial and legal power of City and PSG (including Roma), regarding debt, exemptions for Liverpool, Roma and Monaco and the insane and illegal situation of not being allowed to put hard cash upfront in your own business - there are a lot of rich owners out there, more by the year - I dont think Real, Bayern and Scum can hold their way forever due to the sheer potty-ness of some of it.

And dont forget the Dupont case - where it highly likely UEFA will lose and look ridiculous - some attempt to head it off at the pass wouldn't be a shock.

Be interesting to see if anything comes of these 'discussions'.

[Ted Hughes]

When people mention the G14, I'm not sure that all of those clubs will be quite so keen on protecting the 'old guard' & following the rules of ffp etc, as people believe. It has been in their interest to stand together, so they have, but they aren't 'mates'.

FFP for instance suits clubs like AC Milan, Bayern, rags, Arse etc. But it doesn't particularly suit Real Madrid or Barca & it definitely doesn't suit US & PSG & we shouldn't forget, that we are talking about two great fucking big clubs here. City & PSG are big players now, very big.

It also doesn't really suit Chelsea anymore, & we have heard that from Mourinho only recently. It did, short term. They only agreed to it basically because they are a bunch of odious fucking cunts. They saw the possibility of sneaking through ffp, us getting shit on, & them signing players whilst we had to be careful for a season & them being top of the league for a bit whilst we get held back, which is exactly what has happened. A short term gain, so why not ?

From now on, Chelsea's advantage card has been used up & in the future, they would be better served without ffp. It's no coincidence that they, the rags, Arse, Liverpool have all spent shitloads of money right at the point where we are threatened with & then hit with sanctions. They planned it that way. It's about getting ahead in the race or getting closer to us whilst we are handicapped, not stopping us. They know they can't stop us, but the advantage just for this season, which ffp has given to those clubs, is like a case of industrial espionage or insider trading. Rags would have been royally fucked if we had pushed up wages & fees like they have just done, but to a level they can't afford. They would be all but finished as a competitor. Now it's actually them who have the biggest spending power as we are artificially restricted. It has rescued their whole business plan. But what have Real or Barca gained ? What do, Chelsea, Real, Barca gain from ffp from now on ? Answer; nothing.

At the same time, with the coefficient, Bayern, Real Madrid, Barca, have the chance that one of those clubs is going to draw City every year, because we can't be drawn in the same group as the English clubs, who are artificially promoted to the top group.

That means that Arse, Chelsea, rags, have an advantage every year compared to Bayern etc. So Bayern etc imo, have had a word.

I don't believe for one second this is about being 'fair' to City etc. This is Bayern Munich, Real, Barca asking the question of why should Chelsea Arse rags etc get an advantage every year. And it shows that there is little solidarity between the 'old guard'. They will all look after No 1, not each other.

As for Milan trying to hijack the initiative & bring in 'wild cards' for 'important clubs', that has been given short shrift already. Then look at who those 'important clubs' are. Our support in the states was dwarfed by rags & Liverpool, showing we have a good way to go in order to catch them in that respect, but look at our game v AC Milan. No way were those fuckers outdrawing us. So wihich is the 'important club' out of City & Milan ?

The biggest part of the cartel which has gained an advantage given by UEFA so far, has been the English clubs, plus Bayern & the Italians. But the coefficient doesn't suit Bayern. FFP doesn't help, Real, Barca, Chelsea, City, PSG, any of the Russians, Monaco, & any club looking for new ownership.

I think these people will do whatever it takes to further their own interests & if that involves getting out of bed with the rags & into bed with City & PSG, then that's exactly what they will do. These clubs have no reason at all, to be more pro rags or Arsenal, than pro City, it's just convenience.

And look at where the money going into Barca & Real Madrid is coming from.

Imo, the G14 may not be the G14 for much longer. City & PSG, are just starting phase 2.

[john68]

Mikhail,
I think to be fair, when Platini took the job he had a vision and was a football man, with football as his main priority. I think he was unfortunate that his time clashed with the arrival of an extremely powerful group of new investors who had/have no affinity to football but see it as a means to further their own agendas.

I will go into the different types of investment models at a later time if you wish.

Platini's big problem has been that much of the real action has gone unreported by the mainstream media and he has often taken the blame publicly for the actions of G14 clubs, whilst they have largely got off uncriticised. The likes of Kenyon, Gill, Dean, Gadzidis and the abomination that is the rulingfaction at Bayern are rarely called to task.

Thanks for the kind words Mate...appreciated.

[john68]

Lev,

The ECA was set up as a response to Platini's refusal to consult with the old G14 as a sole representative body. Platini asserted that UeFA represented ALL the European clubs and should the old G14 wish that level of consultation, they would have to form a more comprehensive and more inclusive body.

That was done, the ECA was born and then controlled totally by the old elite. Sadly, what we ended up with was an even more powerful body that the globally branded clubs could use as a tool to bully UeFA and pursue their agendas. Should any breakaway happen, I have no doubt the old elite would dump the ECA as soon as they felt it had served their purpose. I am also convinced that if a breakaway occured and it was felt UeFA would offer them an umbrella of credibility. UeFA would be invited (Like the FA in England with the Prem) to regulate it.

[john68]

Lev,

I have separated the 2nd part of your post because it is fundamental to what is really going on at the top level.

It is important to understand that none of this has anything whatsoever to do with football. We might just as well be discussing cans of beans or barrels of oil. It is purely about a group of (mainly) short term investors maximising short term profit to fill their own coffers. Investors who have no interest in football, except as a commodity, and little or no interest in the clubs they are using to achieve their aims.

The captive football audience you mention is more important at the slightly lower level but fans are only seen as customers or units of profit and as such, the percentage they add to the coffers is diminishing year on year. TV deals, sponsorships and spreading of their gospels into the huge, largely untapped global markets are where they see the future. To-day the USA is the target, China, India or some where else next.

Winning trophies may be the big priority for we fans but as we have seen at Arsenal, it is not that important to the owners, as long as they canmaintain their commercial success. One has only to look at the lack of success over the recent years at Liverpool to understand that it has hardly damaged their global reputation.Arsenal are another prime example. Minimal investment, no trophies, limited onfield success but maximum profit. Arsenal set a deliberate policy.

[john68]

Piccs.

Of the 18 clubs that formed the old G14, it was only ever the most politically powerful clubs that really drove it. Now it is reported that only nine clubs remain at the top table. The English clubs; Rags, Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool have the advantage of them playing in the financially rewarding Prem. Spain's Barca and Real and Germany's Bayern for obvious reasons and Milan and Inter from Italy, giving representation from the four most powerful football nations. For some reason France has never had the same power.

I agree, even looking at that refined list that there is a disparity of football and financial prowess within that group.and you may be right that UeFA have finally decided they can take them on in battle an win the battle. I certainly hope so.

If UeFA have decided to go into battle against those clubs who have bullied and coerced them for so long and if UeFA are attempting to stop any future breakaway, it would make sense of the current events.

Those nine could not set up a super league on their own. We know they have the active support from Juve and Gala making eleven confirmed clubs but that is not enough for their needs. They would have to give any super league a pan European factor and would need the lies of Paris, Benfica, Ajax, Porto and others from that tier of football to give it any chance of commercial success.

If UeFA have decided to fight the global clubs, then they would have to convince the likes of Ajax, Benfica etc to remain under the UeFA banner. It would make sense for UeFA to then have City, the richest and most up and coming commercial club as their lead club.

It would make sense of the reported current discussions about FFPR debt and equally explain the changes to the coefficients.

An unexpected turn of events which gives is hope.

[john68]

John,

I think I agree with just about all of your post mate.

As you mentioned Arsenal. It may be worth mentioning their model of ownership. I think they understood many years ago under Dean that they could never really keep pace year on year commercially with the rags and Dean, being a football man considered the increased capacity of the Emirates would help them compete financially off the field and therefore ultimately on it. He planned for the longer term.

The new owners saw things differently. They realised that to compete for honours at the very top would cost continual massive investment whichwould limit what they could pocket. They understood that finishing fourth was the route to the big income from the CL and that was all they needed to do. Wenger was forced to buy young talented players (cheap) and by limiting the costs, they maximised their pocket money. More like Tesco than a competitive sports club.

The rise of City and the possible threat of Spurs has put a cat amongsttheir pigeons and now like the rags, they have to spend to even ensure fourth to secure their income channels.

[BlueinBosnia]

Those nine could not set up a super league on their own. We know they have the active support from Juve and Gala making eleven confirmed clubs but that is not enough for their needs. They would have to give any super league a pan European factor and would need the lies of Paris, Benfica, Ajax, Porto and others from that tier of football to give it any chance of commercial success.

If UeFA have decided to fight the global clubs, then they would have to convince the likes of Ajax, Benfica etc to remain under the UeFA banner. It would make sense for UeFA to then have City, the richest and most up and coming commercial club as their lead club.

I really don't see why there would have to be a pan-European aspect to any potential Super League. I'd guess the majority of TV revenue would come from outside Europe, where prime exposure is still to English, Spanish and Italian leagues, and to some extent the German league. I'd assume Gala would be left high in the water (alongside potential Russian clubs that don't bring enough cash to the table) in the Formation of a Super League, which I would guess would consist of:

4x English clubs
4x Italian clubs
2x Spanish clubs
2x German clubs (or just Bayern, with an 'All Stars' franchise sold to another (potentially non-European) country on a short-term, say 2-3 season, basis, or even with home games dotted around the world in key markets)

[Ted Hughes]

The most likely source of the biggest money to sponsor a superleague, would be from the exact same people UEFA & the G14 have been trying to prevent from sponsoring clubs.

[carl_feedthegoat]

The most likely source of the biggest money to sponsor a superleague, would be from the exact same people UEFA & the G14 have been trying to prevent from sponsoring clubs.

Nail on head.