Why our EDS don't make it to the first team?

[brite blu sky]

why so few EDS in our first team ?

If you look at the individual technical skill of all of our first team players it is outstanding, really outstanding.
Not only that but generally also they have exceptional tactical, positional awareness,
in addition to a high level of intelligence, something which comes more with experience.

So for me any EDS at 18 or 19 would have to be all of that - as a very young player. That is some ask

[johnny crossan]

why so few EDS in our first team ?

If you look at the individual technical skill of all of our first team players it is outstanding, really outstanding.
Not only that but generally also they have exceptional tactical, positional awareness,
in addition to a high level of intelligence, something which comes more with experience.

So for me any EDS at 18 or 19 would have to be all of that - as a very young player. That is some ask

The current skill level across our entire squad is phenomenal but that has not been the case over the last decade. Given the investment in facilities and scouting since Sheikh Mansour took control our results are pretty poor in terms of the EDS providing first teamers.

[Niall Quinns Discopants]

why so few EDS in our first team ?

If you look at the individual technical skill of all of our first team players it is outstanding, really outstanding.
Not only that but generally also they have exceptional tactical, positional awareness,
in addition to a high level of intelligence, something which comes more with experience.

So for me any EDS at 18 or 19 would have to be all of that - as a very young player. That is some ask

The current skill level across our entire squad is phenomenal but that has not been the case over the last decade. Given the investment in facilities and scouting since Sheikh Mansour took control our results are pretty poor in terms of the EDS providing first teamers.

Again, talent level at City is amazing. To breed players consistently who are among top 10 in the world on their position is nearly impossible. Yet still Academy keeps on producing players who make their debuts.

I don't know if people truly understand how fucking hard it is to be good enough to make it even to matchday squad ONCE for club like City. Pretty much guarantees you a nice career in professional football.

[johnny crossan]

why so few EDS in our first team ?

If you look at the individual technical skill of all of our first team players it is outstanding, really outstanding.
Not only that but generally also they have exceptional tactical, positional awareness,
in addition to a high level of intelligence, something which comes more with experience.

So for me any EDS at 18 or 19 would have to be all of that - as a very young player. That is some ask

The current skill level across our entire squad is phenomenal but that has not been the case over the last decade. Given the investment in facilities and scouting since Sheikh Mansour took control our results are pretty poor in terms of the EDS providing first teamers.

Again, talent level at City is amazing. To breed players consistently who are among top 10 in the world on their position is nearly impossible. Yet still Academy keeps on producing players who make their debuts.

I don't know if people truly understand how fucking hard it is to be good enough to make it even to matchday squad ONCE for club like City. Pretty much guarantees you a nice career in professional football.

Foden apart, just one decent full back, or midfielder or forward breaking into the first team squad during the last decade would have been helpful, still we live in hope

[Niall Quinns Discopants]

why so few EDS in our first team ?

If you look at the individual technical skill of all of our first team players it is outstanding, really outstanding.
Not only that but generally also they have exceptional tactical, positional awareness,
in addition to a high level of intelligence, something which comes more with experience.

So for me any EDS at 18 or 19 would have to be all of that - as a very young player. That is some ask

The current skill level across our entire squad is phenomenal but that has not been the case over the last decade. Given the investment in facilities and scouting since Sheikh Mansour took control our results are pretty poor in terms of the EDS providing first teamers.

Again, talent level at City is amazing. To breed players consistently who are among top 10 in the world on their position is nearly impossible. Yet still Academy keeps on producing players who make their debuts.

I don't know if people truly understand how fucking hard it is to be good enough to make it even to matchday squad ONCE for club like City. Pretty much guarantees you a nice career in professional football.

Foden apart, just one decent full back, or midfielder or forward breaking into the first team squad during the last decade would have been helpful, still we live in hope

We've produced tons of decent defenders and midfielders and strikers during that era. 15 full internationals and on top of that 10 U21 internationals. 25 players who play in top European leagues. That is by all accounts pretty fantastic strike rate for any Academy.

Again producing players for top top European club like City is extremely hard. But we'd be solid Premierleague club if we would only field our own Academy products. That is pretty amazing actually.

[mr_nool]

So, except Phil, Zinch and maybe Garcia, our EDS failed to make their way in our team. Many of them were loaned out where they also failed to impress and are "lost" in small teams.
Of course, there is the case of Sancho, but that is another discussion.

So, what is wrong?
We seem to buy many of the best youths out there really early, but you hear almost nothing from them. Bernabe, Gomes or that young fella, the turkish one, they were all viewed as the next big thing.

Discuss.

Zinch wasn't EDS and Garcia arrived at an advanced age, so not great examples. But the reason is pretty obvious: you have to beat what's in front of you – and in our case that's world class players.

Say what you want about Mahrez, Gundo, Stones, Sterling, et. al. They are all seasoned international and among the top 10-20 in the world in their position.

You have to be extremely talented to knock any of those of their pearch and claim your place. So far Phil is the only truly world class talent to come from our academy. And that's not down to it not being good, but down to probabilities.

[johnny crossan]

why so few EDS in our first team ?

If you look at the individual technical skill of all of our first team players it is outstanding, really outstanding.
Not only that but generally also they have exceptional tactical, positional awareness,
in addition to a high level of intelligence, something which comes more with experience.

So for me any EDS at 18 or 19 would have to be all of that - as a very young player. That is some ask

The current skill level across our entire squad is phenomenal but that has not been the case over the last decade. Given the investment in facilities and scouting since Sheikh Mansour took control our results are pretty poor in terms of the EDS providing first teamers.

Again, talent level at City is amazing. To breed players consistently who are among top 10 in the world on their position is nearly impossible. Yet still Academy keeps on producing players who make their debuts.

I don't know if people truly understand how fucking hard it is to be good enough to make it even to matchday squad ONCE for club like City. Pretty much guarantees you a nice career in professional football.

Foden apart, just one decent full back, or midfielder or forward breaking into the first team squad during the last decade would have been helpful, still we live in hope

We've produced tons of decent defenders and midfielders and strikers during that era. 15 full internationals and on top of that 10 U21 internationals. 25 players who play in top European leagues. That is by all accounts pretty fantastic strike rate for any Academy.

Again producing players for top top European club like City is extremely hard. But we'd be solid Premier league club if we would only field our own Academy products. That is pretty amazing actually.

It is I agree, the trouble is we've produced only one first teamer of the standard required for us in a decade - which is simply not good enough when compared with our rivals.

[nottsblue]

Our rivals?

Who are they then? We have the most PL titles in the last 10 years with 5. We have the most domestic cups. We score the most goals year in year out. Forgive me, but I would suggest the likes of Chelsea, rags, Spurs, dippers are not rivals to ourselves as such when judged over a period of time. More just other clubs who are fighting for the scraps.

So comparisons between us and say the rags, are unfair as their goals are different to ours. We want to win trophies. They don’t. The same can be said for most of the other so called top 6. Arguably the dippers have brought on more youngsters, but not many more and they’ve barely won anything in the last 15 years as a whole

[C & C]

It is I agree, the trouble is we've produced only one first teamer of the standard required for us in a decade - which is simply not good enough when compared with our rivals.

I think it's possible to take this one step further then... how many players on our rivals teams would get into City's first team? Now, how many of those were in the youth program?

[nottsblue]

It is I agree, the trouble is we've produced only one first teamer of the standard required for us in a decade - which is simply not good enough when compared with our rivals.

I think it's possible to take this one step further then... how many players on our rivals teams would get into City's first team? Now, how many of those were in the youth program?

Very good point

[Scatman]

It is I agree, the trouble is we've produced only one first teamer of the standard required for us in a decade - which is simply not good enough when compared with our rivals.

I think it's possible to take this one step further then... how many players on our rivals teams would get into City's first team? Now, how many of those were in the youth program?

Sterling at a push.

[johnny crossan]

It is I agree, the trouble is we've produced only one first teamer of the standard required for us in a decade - which is simply not good enough when compared with our rivals.

I think it's possible to take this one step further then... how many players on our rivals teams would get into City's first team? Now, how many of those were in the youth program?

Well I suppose the likes of Messi, Busquets, Alba, Carvajal, Nacho, Alaba, Muller etc etc may struggle to merit a place in our current team or even their own these days but over the past 10 years? I think you'll find there were many other home grown stars who were key to the success of those clubs during that time too.

[BlueinBosnia]

Well I suppose the likes of Messi, Busquets, Alba, Carvajal, Nacho, Alaba, Muller etc etc may struggle to merit a place in our current team or even their own these days but over the past 10 years? I think you'll find there were many other home grown stars who were key to the success of those clubs during that time too.

From your list, Messi, Busquets, Alba, Nacho, Alaba and Muller didn't emerge from their respective academies in the last decade, but rather over a decade ago (as an interesting aside, Messi made his first team competitive debut for Barca a few days before Nedum Onouha made his debut for us). The only one that did emerge during the past 10 years - Carvajal - was re-signed from another club, a la Angelino with us.

[johnny crossan]

Well I suppose the likes of Messi, Busquets, Alba, Carvajal, Nacho, Alaba, Muller etc etc may struggle to merit a place in our current team or even their own these days but over the past 10 years? I think you'll find there were many other home grown stars who were key to the success of those clubs during that time too.

From your list, Messi, Busquets, Alba, Nacho, Alaba and Muller didn't emerge from their respective academies in the last decade, but rather over a decade ago (as an interesting aside, Messi made his first team competitive debut for Barca a few days before Nedum Onouha made his debut for us). The only one that did emerge during the past 10 years - Carvajal - was re-signed from another club, a la Angelino with us.

The point is they and many other home-grown players were all integral to their teams' success over the past 10 years, that they left the junior sides before that is irrelevant. Onuoha played one league game for us in the last ten years btw.

[brite blu sky]

why so few EDS in our first team ?

If you look at the individual technical skill of all of our first team players it is outstanding, really outstanding.
Not only that but generally also they have exceptional tactical, positional awareness,
in addition to a high level of intelligence, something which comes more with experience.

So for me any EDS at 18 or 19 would have to be all of that - as a very young player. That is some ask

The current skill level across our entire squad is phenomenal but that has not been the case over the last decade. Given the investment in facilities and scouting since Sheikh Mansour took control our results are pretty poor in terms of the EDS providing first teamers.

The OP seems to be asking why EDS dont get into the first team. You mention the last decade. So from 2010 ( Mancini era ) there have been 44 debuts for academy players in the first team. I wont list them all but notables are
Boyata
Nimely
Mee
Guidetta
Wabara
Suarez
Lopez
Pozo
Iheanacho
Celina
Angelino
Tosin
Barker
Maffeo
Diaz
Aleix García
Foden
L. Nmecha
Gomez
Muric
Bernabe
Eric Garcia
Poveda
Felix Nmecha
Harwood-Bellis
Doyle
Delap
Palmer

Prior to Mancini, Sven gave 5 or so debuts too.

So in terms of numbers we dont have a problem. Quality to stay in the first team is a different matter. Some have been very close but just not quite. e.g Tosin. pretty reasonable at Fulham, played ok for us a few times in some big games but not quite execptional enough in the short term.

[aaron bond]

Our rivals?

Who are they then? We have the most PL titles in the last 10 years with 5. We have the most domestic cups. We score the most goals year in year out. Forgive me, but I would suggest the likes of Chelsea, rags, Spurs, dippers are not rivals to ourselves as such when judged over a period of time. More just other clubs who are fighting for the scraps.

So comparisons between us and say the rags, are unfair as their goals are different to ours. We want to win trophies. They don’t. The same can be said for most of the other so called top 6. Arguably the dippers have brought on more youngsters, but not many more and they’ve barely won anything in the last 15 years as a whole

Spot on.

Academies produce players good enough to play for their first teams or to make money from sales.

For 10 years we have been one of the top 5 sides in Europe. To get into our first 11 is extremely difficult.

Our academy set-up is similar to Chelsea. Both of us have phenomenal youth teams but a significant part of the set-up is to produce good players to sell to other clubs. We have made a fair bit of money doing this which is a good thing.

From a player's perspective, if you're still at City when you are 18-19 years old, you are likely to have a good career somewhere in football. If it's not with us, you will most likely end up somewhere within professional football which is still a great achievement.

[johnny crossan]

why so few EDS in our first team ?

If you look at the individual technical skill of all of our first team players it is outstanding, really outstanding.
Not only that but generally also they have exceptional tactical, positional awareness,
in addition to a high level of intelligence, something which comes more with experience.

So for me any EDS at 18 or 19 would have to be all of that - as a very young player. That is some ask

The current skill level across our entire squad is phenomenal but that has not been the case over the last decade. Given the investment in facilities and scouting since Sheikh Mansour took control our results are pretty poor in terms of the EDS providing first teamers.

The OP seems to be asking why EDS dont get into the first team. You mention the last decade. So from 2010 ( Mancini era ) there have been 44 debuts for academy players in the first team. I wont list them all but notables are
Boyata
Nimely
Mee
Guidetta
Wabara
Suarez
Lopez
Pozo
Iheanacho
Celina
Angelino
Tosin
Barker
Maffeo
Diaz
Aleix García
Foden
L. Nmecha
Gomez
Muric
Bernabe
Eric Garcia
Poveda
Felix Nmecha
Harwood-Bellis
Doyle
Delap
Palmer

Prior to Mancini, Sven gave 5 or so debuts too.

So in terms of numbers we dont have a problem. Quality to stay in the first team is a different matter. Some have been very close but just not quite. e.g Tosin. pretty reasonable at Fulham, played ok for us a few times in some big games but not quite execptional enough in the short term.

and in our case only Foden has made it as a first team regular in 10 years. Wrap it up any way you like but the OP is right, a poor return on our investment and well behind the performance of rival academies.

[Bluemoon4610]

why so few EDS in our first team ?

If you look at the individual technical skill of all of our first team players it is outstanding, really outstanding.
Not only that but generally also they have exceptional tactical, positional awareness,
in addition to a high level of intelligence, something which comes more with experience.

So for me any EDS at 18 or 19 would have to be all of that - as a very young player. That is some ask

The current skill level across our entire squad is phenomenal but that has not been the case over the last decade. Given the investment in facilities and scouting since Sheikh Mansour took control our results are pretty poor in terms of the EDS providing first teamers.

The OP seems to be asking why EDS dont get into the first team. You mention the last decade. So from 2010 ( Mancini era ) there have been 44 debuts for academy players in the first team. I wont list them all but notables are
Boyata
Nimely
Mee
Guidetta
Wabara
Suarez
Lopez
Pozo
Iheanacho
Celina
Angelino
Tosin
Barker
Maffeo
Diaz
Aleix García
Foden
L. Nmecha
Gomez
Muric
Bernabe
Eric Garcia
Poveda
Felix Nmecha
Harwood-Bellis
Doyle
Delap
Palmer

Prior to Mancini, Sven gave 5 or so debuts too.

So in terms of numbers we dont have a problem. Quality to stay in the first team is a different matter. Some have been very close but just not quite. e.g Tosin. pretty reasonable at Fulham, played ok for us a few times in some big games but not quite execptional enough in the short term.

and in our case only Foden has made it as a first team regular in 10 years. Wrap it up any way you like but the OP is right, a poor return on our investment and well behind the performance of rival academies.

Or viewed from a different angle, a great return in terms of cash generated, which funds players for the first team, and the reason other (domestic) academies promote so many academy graduates is because the level they are at means the youngsters are good enough. We're WAY past that level and still on an upwards trajectory. Only real diamonds, not decent or even excellent players, will be good enough at this point in time. And there are not too many of them.

[johnny crossan]

why so few EDS in our first team ?

If you look at the individual technical skill of all of our first team players it is outstanding, really outstanding.
Not only that but generally also they have exceptional tactical, positional awareness,
in addition to a high level of intelligence, something which comes more with experience.

So for me any EDS at 18 or 19 would have to be all of that - as a very young player. That is some ask

The current skill level across our entire squad is phenomenal but that has not been the case over the last decade. Given the investment in facilities and scouting since Sheikh Mansour took control our results are pretty poor in terms of the EDS providing first teamers.

The OP seems to be asking why EDS dont get into the first team. You mention the last decade. So from 2010 ( Mancini era ) there have been 44 debuts for academy players in the first team. I wont list them all but notables are
Boyata
Nimely
Mee
Guidetta
Wabara
Suarez
Lopez
Pozo
Iheanacho
Celina
Angelino
Tosin
Barker
Maffeo
Diaz
Aleix García
Foden
L. Nmecha
Gomez
Muric
Bernabe
Eric Garcia
Poveda
Felix Nmecha
Harwood-Bellis
Doyle
Delap
Palmer

Prior to Mancini, Sven gave 5 or so debuts too.

So in terms of numbers we dont have a problem. Quality to stay in the first team is a different matter. Some have been very close but just not quite. e.g Tosin. pretty reasonable at Fulham, played ok for us a few times in some big games but not quite execptional enough in the short term.

and in our case only Foden has made it as a first team regular in 10 years. Wrap it up any way you like but the OP is right, a poor return on our investment and well behind the performance of rival academies.

Or viewed from a different angle, a great return in terms of cash generated, which funds players for the first team, and the reason other (domestic) academies promote so many academy graduates is because the level they are at means the youngsters are good enough. We're WAY past that level and still on an upwards trajectory. Only real diamonds, not decent or even excellent players, will be good enough at this point in time. And there are not too many of them.

Second prize, a good one for sure but not the primary purpose of our academy or its measure of success - that is to produce players good enough for our own first team

[BlueinBosnia]

Or viewed from a different angle, a great return in terms of cash generated, which funds players for the first team, and the reason other (domestic) academies promote so many academy graduates is because the level they are at means the youngsters are good enough. We're WAY past that level and still on an upwards trajectory. Only real diamonds, not decent or even excellent players, will be good enough at this point in time. And there are not too many of them.

Agreed. Also, one issue with comparing us to non-domestic clubs is that they are able to blood their youngsters in senior teams in lower leagues, keeping them close to the first team players and staff. Perpetually loaning out players can't be good for their personal career perspectives, especially if, after playing regularly in the Dutch, Spanish or Belgian top tier at the ages of 18 to 20, they have to be slowly eased into our first team over the course of a couple of seasons.