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Slim wrote:

Beefymcfc wrote:Slim, I am taking it that you have read the new regs rather than me, just listening to snippets. Can I ask, in your opinion, what has this actually done for helping home grown (as in English) players come through for the national team?

It hasn't. The players don't have to be English/Welsh, they just have to have played him for 3 years, we already poach europe's brightest at much younger ages than 18(and 1 day) so the top clubs will continue doing what they are doing and mid to lower teams already field a decent number of homegrown talent due to it being cheaper than buying them. I believe Vlad already qualifies and he is only 19 now. BTW, read a good article on him from Slovekia, he has a great attitude on him, reckons he will be pushing for a regular spot by the end of the season. (wasn't the arrogant Sturridge style, more determined confidence)

Yeah, I've heard some good stuff about Vlad myself, although I do believe he'll take a liitle longer to be a first choice (unless Rob, Shaun or Bellers gets long term injury).

Anyway, after what you've said, it is becoming very clear that this is a money saving exercise for all clubs prior to the new UEFA plans to keep clubs in check. Clubs should save on wages with the squads and prevent clubs like ours fielding 2 PL ready squads. Combining this with the Audit Trails, it is quite apparent that the PL (probably with guidance from the Top 4) have decided it is now time to act. It just seems a shame that they have done nothing good for the league, but instead decided that the Status Quo of the current Honey Pot will suffice!

ronk wrote:

Beefymcfc wrote:Slim, I am taking it that you have read the new regs rather than me, just listening to snippets. Can I ask, in your opinion, what has this actually done for helping home grown (as in English) players come through for the national team?

There's a squad of 8 players who played in England/Wales for 3 years from 18-21 and 17 others. Smaller squads and restrictions on foreign signings mean that we're less likely to see too many people like Benjani on the fringe of the squad.

The U21 thing will mean a big influx of foreign teenagers. As the rules stand at the moment we could bring in a 14 year old and let them leave when they're 17 and they could come back as a "home-grown player". Expect to see that happening, quietly, at first.

But most of the young players are English. This rule limits the squad size so we're going to see a lot more young players getting games, they might never play again after they're 21, they're less likely to be loaned out (maybe with recall clauses) and I can see borderline kids, especially ones who won't be ready until after they're 21 for a first team début, pushed out the door.

Cheers Ronk, I'm getting there ;-)

Slim wrote:The players don't have to be English/Welsh, they just have to have played him for 3 years,

does that discount Shay who played at Celtic as a kid?

Alex Sapphire wrote:

Slim wrote:The players don't have to be English/Welsh, they just have to have played him for 3 years,

does that discount Shay who played at Celtic as a kid?

He was 18 and 2 months when he moved to Blackburn, afraid he wouldn't be a homegrown player.

Beefymcfc wrote:

ronk wrote:

Beefymcfc wrote:Slim, I am taking it that you have read the new regs rather than me, just listening to snippets. Can I ask, in your opinion, what has this actually done for helping home grown (as in English) players come through for the national team?

There's a squad of 8 players who played in England/Wales for 3 years from 18-21 and 17 others. Smaller squads and restrictions on foreign signings mean that we're less likely to see too many people like Benjani on the fringe of the squad.

The U21 thing will mean a big influx of foreign teenagers. As the rules stand at the moment we could bring in a 14 year old and let them leave when they're 17 and they could come back as a "home-grown player". Expect to see that happening, quietly, at first.

But most of the young players are English. This rule limits the squad size so we're going to see a lot more young players getting games, they might never play again after they're 21, they're less likely to be loaned out (maybe with recall clauses) and I can see borderline kids, especially ones who won't be ready until after they're 21 for a first team début, pushed out the door.

Cheers Ronk, I'm getting there ;-)

All the big clubs have already filled their youth/reserve teams with foreign players because the Blatinis said some years ago that they'd bring in rules where 5 home grown players had to start games. This is just an attempt to dilute that by backing down to their threats in the hope that it'll be enough. If we have enough teams in the last 4 of the Chump's league then it won't be. The clubs have all been readying themselves for it anyhow. As you say; English kids who are late developers will find themselves on the scrapheap.

ronk wrote:

Beefymcfc wrote:Slim, I am taking it that you have read the new regs rather than me, just listening to snippets. Can I ask, in your opinion, what has this actually done for helping home grown (as in English) players come through for the national team?

There's a squad of 8 players who played in England/Wales for 3 years from 18-21 and 17 others. Smaller squads and restrictions on foreign signings mean that we're less likely to see too many people like Benjani on the fringe of the squad.

The U21 thing will mean a big influx of foreign teenagers. As the rules stand at the moment we could bring in a 14 year old and let them leave when they're 17 and they could come back as a "home-grown player". Expect to see that happening, quietly, at first.

But most of the young players are English. This rule limits the squad size so we're going to see a lot more young players getting games, they might never play again after they're 21, they're less likely to be loaned out (maybe with recall clauses) and I can see borderline kids, especially ones who won't be ready until after they're 21 for a first team début, pushed out the door.

This is EXACTLY what will happen.

I'm also starting to figure this "foreign Academy" thing we are setting. They are technically Manchester City players, even if they keep living and playing in their home country. So there's also the loop hole through the problem Slim represented earlier about South Americans. Say we set up a Manchester City Academy in Brazil. We gather all the top talent around the country to play for, technically, for Manchester City. So in five to ten years we will probably have hundreds of promising youngsters playing for "us" and they will all be eligible for our first team as "homegrown".

I'm certain our directors knew about this and all this worldwide Academy thing has been just preparation for this new ruling. I also think that the Club is planning to make business out of this by producing "homegrown talent" to other clubs as well.

Niall Quinns Discopants wrote:

ronk wrote:

Beefymcfc wrote:Slim, I am taking it that you have read the new regs rather than me, just listening to snippets. Can I ask, in your opinion, what has this actually done for helping home grown (as in English) players come through for the national team?

There's a squad of 8 players who played in England/Wales for 3 years from 18-21 and 17 others. Smaller squads and restrictions on foreign signings mean that we're less likely to see too many people like Benjani on the fringe of the squad.

The U21 thing will mean a big influx of foreign teenagers. As the rules stand at the moment we could bring in a 14 year old and let them leave when they're 17 and they could come back as a "home-grown player". Expect to see that happening, quietly, at first.

But most of the young players are English. This rule limits the squad size so we're going to see a lot more young players getting games, they might never play again after they're 21, they're less likely to be loaned out (maybe with recall clauses) and I can see borderline kids, especially ones who won't be ready until after they're 21 for a first team début, pushed out the door.

This is EXACTLY what will happen.

I'm also starting to figure this "foreign Academy" thing we are setting. They are technically Manchester City players, even if they keep living and playing in their home country. So there's also the loop hole through the problem Slim represented earlier about South Americans. Say we set up a Manchester City Academy in Brazil. We gather all the top talent around the country to play for, technically, for Manchester City. So in five to ten years we will probably have hundreds of promising youngsters playing for "us" and they will all be eligible for our first team as "homegrown".

I'm certain our directors knew about this and all this worldwide Academy thing has been just preparation for this new ruling. I also think that the Club is planning to make business out of this by producing "homegrown talent" to other clubs as well.

This is exactly what I thought when I read that last night. If there are already obvious loop holes that I can spot in it, the clubs will have seen them a mile off and are already taking advantage of this new rule.

This new rule will do nothing to improve the quality of young English players, In Scotland about 5/6 years ago we tried something similar when you were only allowed 3 subs. If you named two players under the age of 21 you were allowed 5 subs.

All it lead to was Celtic and Rangers buying lots of under 21 foreign players.

ross.mcfc wrote:
This is exactly what I thought when I read that last night. If there are already obvious loop holes that I can spot in it, the clubs will have seen them a mile off and are already taking advantage of this new rule.

The clubs wrote this rule. They may have done more details in the background.

The Celtic/Rangers thing is very likely to happen. Young starlets aged 20 bought on one year contracts to try and break into the team. Don't get in fast enough, you're off. Get into the team, fight for a place in the 17 next season.

ross.mcfc wrote:

Niall Quinns Discopants wrote:

ronk wrote:

Beefymcfc wrote:Slim, I am taking it that you have read the new regs rather than me, just listening to snippets. Can I ask, in your opinion, what has this actually done for helping home grown (as in English) players come through for the national team?

There's a squad of 8 players who played in England/Wales for 3 years from 18-21 and 17 others. Smaller squads and restrictions on foreign signings mean that we're less likely to see too many people like Benjani on the fringe of the squad.

The U21 thing will mean a big influx of foreign teenagers. As the rules stand at the moment we could bring in a 14 year old and let them leave when they're 17 and they could come back as a "home-grown player". Expect to see that happening, quietly, at first.

But most of the young players are English. This rule limits the squad size so we're going to see a lot more young players getting games, they might never play again after they're 21, they're less likely to be loaned out (maybe with recall clauses) and I can see borderline kids, especially ones who won't be ready until after they're 21 for a first team début, pushed out the door.

This is EXACTLY what will happen.

I'm also starting to figure this "foreign Academy" thing we are setting. They are technically Manchester City players, even if they keep living and playing in their home country. So there's also the loop hole through the problem Slim represented earlier about South Americans. Say we set up a Manchester City Academy in Brazil. We gather all the top talent around the country to play for, technically, for Manchester City. So in five to ten years we will probably have hundreds of promising youngsters playing for "us" and they will all be eligible for our first team as "homegrown".

I'm certain our directors knew about this and all this worldwide Academy thing has been just preparation for this new ruling. I also think that the Club is planning to make business out of this by producing "homegrown talent" to other clubs as well.

This is exactly what I thought when I read that last night. If there are already obvious loop holes that I can spot in it, the clubs will have seen them a mile off and are already taking advantage of this new rule.

This new rule will do nothing to improve the quality of young English players, In Scotland about 5/6 years ago we tried something similar when you were only allowed 3 subs. If you named two players under the age of 21 you were allowed 5 subs.

All it lead to was Celtic and Rangers buying lots of under 21 foreign players.

It's all bullshit. None of it is genuinely designed to protect 'home grown' players. It's just political manouvering.

Re our overseas academies; chances are they'll try to stop us from doing that before long but we'll probably have the law on our side. We definitely do need to produce talent for the local clubs if we're to succeed with academies though otherwise the locals will resent our presence & the various governments may start making things difficult for us. We need the goodwill of the countries involved.

What's the solution then guys? I hate it when teams play no locals in their team.

dazby wrote:What's the solution then guys? I hate it when teams play no locals in their team.

Bring a rule in where a player has to be born in this country.

Not to have just played for the team for three years,the point people are making is that the new rule doesnt do anything for bringing through home nation talent.

lets all have a disco wrote:

dazby wrote:What's the solution then guys? I hate it when teams play no locals in their team.

Bring a rule in where a player has to be born in this country.

Not to have just played for the team for three years,the point people are making is that the new rule doesnt do anything for bringing through home nation talent.

And as we all know that will never happen in EU country as that would be against all the EU stands for. So basically I'd wish they'd stop making ridiculous suggestion just to make it look like they are doing something. Usually these new rulings tend to take things from bad to worse.

Like in our case, if the worldwide Academy thing is what I think it is, it will make it even harder for English Academy lads to break through. This will probably work for us as a Club but will further damage player development for English national team.

What I don't understand is that England had the school of excellence experiment for most talented youngsters, similar to French Clairefontaine (sp?), at some stage and that really seemed to be working but they scrapped that. If English FA really wants to do something for the development of English players they'd concentrate on something like that rather than artificial rules that will have nothing but negative efect.

ross.mcfc wrote:

Niall Quinns Discopants wrote:

ronk wrote:

Beefymcfc wrote:Slim, I am taking it that you have read the new regs rather than me, just listening to snippets. Can I ask, in your opinion, what has this actually done for helping home grown (as in English) players come through for the national team?

There's a squad of 8 players who played in England/Wales for 3 years from 18-21 and 17 others. Smaller squads and restrictions on foreign signings mean that we're less likely to see too many people like Benjani on the fringe of the squad.

The U21 thing will mean a big influx of foreign teenagers. As the rules stand at the moment we could bring in a 14 year old and let them leave when they're 17 and they could come back as a "home-grown player". Expect to see that happening, quietly, at first.

But most of the young players are English. This rule limits the squad size so we're going to see a lot more young players getting games, they might never play again after they're 21, they're less likely to be loaned out (maybe with recall clauses) and I can see borderline kids, especially ones who won't be ready until after they're 21 for a first team début, pushed out the door.

This is EXACTLY what will happen.

I'm also starting to figure this "foreign Academy" thing we are setting. They are technically Manchester City players, even if they keep living and playing in their home country. So there's also the loop hole through the problem Slim represented earlier about South Americans. Say we set up a Manchester City Academy in Brazil. We gather all the top talent around the country to play for, technically, for Manchester City. So in five to ten years we will probably have hundreds of promising youngsters playing for "us" and they will all be eligible for our first team as "homegrown".

I'm certain our directors knew about this and all this worldwide Academy thing has been just preparation for this new ruling. I also think that the Club is planning to make business out of this by producing "homegrown talent" to other clubs as well.

This is exactly what I thought when I read that last night. If there are already obvious loop holes that I can spot in it, the clubs will have seen them a mile off and are already taking advantage of this new rule.

This new rule will do nothing to improve the quality of young English players, In Scotland about 5/6 years ago we tried something similar when you were only allowed 3 subs. If you named two players under the age of 21 you were allowed 5 subs.

All it lead to was Celtic and Rangers buying lots of under 21 foreign players.

Another similar issue it gets round is work permits. It's very difficult to get a work permit for a non-EU national, or their parent, however, I assume we wouldn't have those problems in Abu Dhabi. It's our academy, so they are our players, but they aren't in the EU, so aren't restricted by their rules.

I also expect this to get challenged in the European courts. As someone mentioned, Shay Given for example, may not be able to get a job in English football in a few years, despite being good enough due to him not coming here early enough and now being too old - there is no way that will stand up in a court and the next Bosman will result in this whole thing collapsing.

Niall Quinns Discopants wrote:
What I don't understand is that England had the school of excellence experiment for most talented youngsters, similar to French Clairefontaine (sp?), at some stage and that really seemed to be working but they scrapped that. If English FA really wants to do something for the development of English players they'd concentrate on something like that rather than artificial rules that will have nothing but negative efect.

They couldn't agree on who pays for the academy and who gets the players. Or where the academy is located etc. They did have some grand plan, for a Clairefontaine a few years ago mooted. I think it was going to be in Oxford or Reading or somewhere like that.

The fact that English clubs are plundering places like Clairefontaine and throwing big money at big names there demonstrates the problem that rapidly killed any plans for a shared academy.