Why our EDS don't make it to the first team?

[johnny crossan]

Or viewed from a different angle, a great return in terms of cash generated, which funds players for the first team, and the reason other (domestic) academies promote so many academy graduates is because the level they are at means the youngsters are good enough. We're WAY past that level and still on an upwards trajectory. Only real diamonds, not decent or even excellent players, will be good enough at this point in time. And there are not too many of them.

Agreed. Also, one issue with comparing us to non-domestic clubs is that they are able to blood their youngsters in senior teams in lower leagues, keeping them close to the first team players and staff. Perpetually loaning out players can't be good for their personal career perspectives, especially if, after playing regularly in the Dutch, Spanish or Belgian top tier at the ages of 18 to 20, they have to be slowly eased into our first team over the course of a couple of seasons.

Pep has publicly admired Harry Kane, Harvey Barnes, Declan Rice, Wilf Zaha, Ward Prowse, Reece James, Tammy Abraham, Hudson Odoi, Alexander Arnold - even Pogba, Rashford, McTominay & Greenwood- all home grown products playing regularly for our domestic rivals.

[brite blu sky]

Or viewed from a different angle, a great return in terms of cash generated, which funds players for the first team, and the reason other (domestic) academies promote so many academy graduates is because the level they are at means the youngsters are good enough. We're WAY past that level and still on an upwards trajectory. Only real diamonds, not decent or even excellent players, will be good enough at this point in time. And there are not too many of them.

Agreed. Also, one issue with comparing us to non-domestic clubs is that they are able to blood their youngsters in senior teams in lower leagues, keeping them close to the first team players and staff. Perpetually loaning out players can't be good for their personal career perspectives, especially if, after playing regularly in the Dutch, Spanish or Belgian top tier at the ages of 18 to 20, they have to be slowly eased into our first team over the course of a couple of seasons.

Pep has publicly admired Harry Kane, Harvey Barnes, Declan Rice, Wilf Zaha, Ward Prowse, Reece James, Tammy Abraham, Hudson Odoi, Alexander Arnold - even Pogba, Rashford, McTominay & Greenwood- all home grown products playing regularly for our domestic rivals.

Sounds to me that you are clinging on to your basic argument.
So which of our rivals would you prefer City to be? Spurs? Chelsea? - i mean so that some of our academy can get in regularly of course.

I get the point that not many of our EDS get a permanent place in the team. One of if not THE most technical and creative team on the planet.
i get that some may be disappointed by that, but it is not a particularly big surprise. Seems to me the chance is going to be north of 1 in 50 of those who get a debut.

Maybe you can illuminate us as to why this may be, rather than just moaning about it.

[johnny crossan]

Or viewed from a different angle, a great return in terms of cash generated, which funds players for the first team, and the reason other (domestic) academies promote so many academy graduates is because the level they are at means the youngsters are good enough. We're WAY past that level and still on an upwards trajectory. Only real diamonds, not decent or even excellent players, will be good enough at this point in time. And there are not too many of them.

Agreed. Also, one issue with comparing us to non-domestic clubs is that they are able to blood their youngsters in senior teams in lower leagues, keeping them close to the first team players and staff. Perpetually loaning out players can't be good for their personal career perspectives, especially if, after playing regularly in the Dutch, Spanish or Belgian top tier at the ages of 18 to 20, they have to be slowly eased into our first team over the course of a couple of seasons.

Pep has publicly admired Harry Kane, Harvey Barnes, Declan Rice, Wilf Zaha, Ward Prowse, Reece James, Tammy Abraham, Hudson Odoi, Alexander Arnold - even Pogba, Rashford, McTominay & Greenwood- all home grown products playing regularly for our domestic rivals.

Sounds to me that you are clinging on to your basic argument.So which of our rivals would you prefer City to be? Spurs? Chelsea? - i mean so that some of our academy can get in regularly of course.I get the point that not many of our EDS get a permanent place in the team. One of if not THE most technical and creative team on the planet.i get that some may be disappointed by that, but it is not a particularly big surprise. Seems to me the chance is going to be north of 1 in 50 of those who get a debut.Maybe you can illuminate us as to why this may be, rather than just moaning about it.

Moaning? Our youth system is failing, I'm just repeating this simple but important fact for your and others benefit friend because you don't seem to understand it. Our investment in the EDS is now on an industrial scale. We have a worldwide scouting network designed to recruit the cream of young footballing talent and more trainees out on loan than any other club but only one first team player to show for it after a decade. So why you ask is all that effort not producing the goods - good question what is the reason?

[brite blu sky]

Until you come up with a reason yourself you are just moaning bud.

I have given you a reason - it is that difficult that only 1 in 50 debutants have stuck.

btw. in the last 10 years one of our rivals Chelsea have given 33 debuts to academy players.

11 less than us.

So c'mon crank up your brain and give us all a reason for your dramatic analysis that the academy is failing.

[john68]

You can only fail if you don't reach your targets Mate.

We, as fans, presuppose that the aim of of the CFA is to produce 1st team players for City. In past years, that was usually true.
Consider, that over the past few seasons, such has been the level of quality in our 1st team that we have only had to replace those legends that are reaching the ends of their careers. Phil got through the system, but when he did, there was nowhere to put him. Even now, we see such a talent sat regularly on the bench.

At the end of this season, we only really need to replace Aguero and find another full back (dependant on Ake's full recovery).

Our player needs are quite minimal considering the size of our CFA, our interests, scouting systems globally and the amount the CFG have invested in overseas clubs. What we have is the largest talent trawler in global football history, the largest talent trawling investment in global football history...all for a minimal need of player replacement.

As fans we see football, as a business, our owners see a market to profit from.
Talent trawled in, talent nurtured, talent loaned out for a fee, talent to be sold and talent to create a large regular income for our parent company, the CFG.

It makes no sense whatsoever to have invested that huge sum of money for a minimal football need. It makes a lot of sense when we accept that the CFA is a huge football player market.

Just like agents gather a portfolio of players to but and sell, the CFA is the supply line into that market.

Sad,but true. Allthe jigsaw pieces when put together create that picture....Our CFA was never designed for our 1st team replenishment. If we get one like Phil, all well and good, if we don't, we buy from the CFA profits.

[johnny crossan]

Until you come up with a reason yourself you are just moaning bud. I have given you a reason - it is that difficult that only 1 in 50 debutants have stuck.btw. in the last 10 years one of our rivals Chelsea have given 33 debuts to academy players.11 less than us.So c'mon crank up your brain and give us all a reason for your dramatic analysis that the academy is failing.

It doesn't take much brain cranking to work out that the Chavs and all the other clubs at the top of the league are streets ahead of us in producing players for their own first team. Also it's not compulsory to have an answer to the questions we ask on here btw, especially one like yours in this instance which applies to all the academies and is therefore just irrelevant to why we are being outperformed.

[johnny crossan]

You can only fail if you don't reach your targets Mate.

We, as fans, presuppose that the aim of of the CFA is to produce 1st team players for City. In past years, that was usually true.
Consider, that over the past few seasons, such has been the level of quality in our 1st team that we have only had to replace those legends that are reaching the ends of their careers. Phil got through the system, but when he did, there was nowhere to put him. Even now, we see such a talent sat regularly on the bench.

At the end of this season, we only really need to replace Aguero and find another full back (dependant on Ake's full recovery).

Our player needs are quite minimal considering the size of our CFA, our interests, scouting systems globally and the amount the CFG have invested in overseas clubs. What we have is the largest talent trawler in global football history, the largest talent trawling investment in global football history...all for a minimal need of player replacement.

As fans we see football, as a business, our owners see a market to profit from.
Talent trawled in, talent nurtured, talent loaned out for a fee, talent to be sold and talent to create a large regular income for our parent company, the CFG.

It makes no sense whatsoever to have invested that huge sum of money for a minimal football need. It makes a lot of sense when we accept that the CFA is a huge football player market.

Just like agents gather a portfolio of players to but and sell, the CFA is the supply line into that market.

Sad,but true. Allthe jigsaw pieces when put together create that picture....Our CFA was never designed for our 1st team replenishment. If we get one like Phil, all well and good, if we don't, we buy from the CFA profits.

Sounds a bit like you're retrofitting the targets to the outcomes there John Is it just us that are so good the EDS is irrelevant to our first team recruitment? I don't think your analysis would do much to motivate the lads in there either!

[nottsblue]

Until you come up with a reason yourself you are just moaning bud. I have given you a reason - it is that difficult that only 1 in 50 debutants have stuck.btw. in the last 10 years one of our rivals Chelsea have given 33 debuts to academy players.11 less than us.So c'mon crank up your brain and give us all a reason for your dramatic analysis that the academy is failing.

It doesn't take much brain cranking to work out that the Chavs and all the other clubs at the top of the league are streets ahead of us in producing players for their own first team. Also it's not compulsory to have an answer to the questions we ask on here btw, especially one like yours in this instance which applies to all the academies and is therefore just irrelevant to why we are being outperformed.

But we are at the top of the league. By 12 points.

The points gap over the rags over the last 4 years must be at least 40. Same for Chelsea and Arsenal and Spurs. So they are NOT, I REPEAT NOT, rivals of ours. Not in the sense of them truly challenging us. The dippers I grant you have actually won the league but that was one time in 30 years.

Therefore those clubs teams are inferior to ours which makes it easier to get in and also their expectations are lower than ours which eases pressure on results. It is not a like for like comparison.

[johnny crossan]

Until you come up with a reason yourself you are just moaning bud. I have given you a reason - it is that difficult that only 1 in 50 debutants have stuck.btw. in the last 10 years one of our rivals Chelsea have given 33 debuts to academy players.11 less than us.So c'mon crank up your brain and give us all a reason for your dramatic analysis that the academy is failing.

It doesn't take much brain cranking to work out that the Chavs and all the other clubs at the top of the league are streets ahead of us in producing players for their own first team. Also it's not compulsory to have an answer to the questions we ask on here btw, especially one like yours in this instance which applies to all the academies and is therefore just irrelevant to why we are being outperformed.

But we are at the top of the league. By 12 points.

The points gap over the rags over the last 4 years must be at least 40. Same for Chelsea and Arsenal and Spurs. So they are NOT, I REPEAT NOT, rivals of ours. Not in the sense of them truly challenging us. The dippers I grant you have actually won the league but that was one time in 30 years.

Therefore those clubs teams are inferior to ours which makes it easier to get in and also their expectations are lower than ours which eases pressure on results. It is not a like for like comparison.

For old timers like me mate, the historical perspective is a lot wider than the last few seasons.

We're having our time in the sun again but winter is coming - sooner or later

[nottsblue]

You can only fail if you don't reach your targets Mate.

We, as fans, presuppose that the aim of of the CFA is to produce 1st team players for City. In past years, that was usually true.
Consider, that over the past few seasons, such has been the level of quality in our 1st team that we have only had to replace those legends that are reaching the ends of their careers. Phil got through the system, but when he did, there was nowhere to put him. Even now, we see such a talent sat regularly on the bench.

At the end of this season, we only really need to replace Aguero and find another full back (dependant on Ake's full recovery).

Our player needs are quite minimal considering the size of our CFA, our interests, scouting systems globally and the amount the CFG have invested in overseas clubs. What we have is the largest talent trawler in global football history, the largest talent trawling investment in global football history...all for a minimal need of player replacement.

As fans we see football, as a business, our owners see a market to profit from.
Talent trawled in, talent nurtured, talent loaned out for a fee, talent to be sold and talent to create a large regular income for our parent company, the CFG.

It makes no sense whatsoever to have invested that huge sum of money for a minimal football need. It makes a lot of sense when we accept that the CFA is a huge football player market.

Just like agents gather a portfolio of players to but and sell, the CFA is the supply line into that market.

Sad,but true. Allthe jigsaw pieces when put together create that picture....Our CFA was never designed for our 1st team replenishment. If we get one like Phil, all well and good, if we don't, we buy from the CFA profits.

Sounds a bit like you're retrofitting the targets to the outcomes there John Is it just us that are so good the EDS is irrelevant to our first team recruitment? I don't think your analysis would do much to motivate the lads in there either!

A lad in our Academy is more likely to make it in football than a lad at say Bolton or Blackburn or Stoke or even the likes of Rochdale. If a lad doesn’t make it a lower league club he has nowhere to go other than non league or drift out of football altogether. A lad who doesn’t make it us can drop into the lower league team and it’s up to him from there on in. The list above of 40+ names who are playing league football is testament to that.

Coupled with the fact our facilities are second to none, our education programme ensures their studies aren’t forgotten, our youth teams are consistently the best in their class and the fact they share the same facilities as some of the best footballers the country has, all overseen by the worlds best manager whose innovative tactics filter down through the age groups, that is more than enough motivation for any aspiring young lad

[johnny crossan]

You can only fail if you don't reach your targets Mate.

We, as fans, presuppose that the aim of of the CFA is to produce 1st team players for City. In past years, that was usually true.
Consider, that over the past few seasons, such has been the level of quality in our 1st team that we have only had to replace those legends that are reaching the ends of their careers. Phil got through the system, but when he did, there was nowhere to put him. Even now, we see such a talent sat regularly on the bench.

At the end of this season, we only really need to replace Aguero and find another full back (dependant on Ake's full recovery).

Our player needs are quite minimal considering the size of our CFA, our interests, scouting systems globally and the amount the CFG have invested in overseas clubs. What we have is the largest talent trawler in global football history, the largest talent trawling investment in global football history...all for a minimal need of player replacement.

As fans we see football, as a business, our owners see a market to profit from.
Talent trawled in, talent nurtured, talent loaned out for a fee, talent to be sold and talent to create a large regular income for our parent company, the CFG.

It makes no sense whatsoever to have invested that huge sum of money for a minimal football need. It makes a lot of sense when we accept that the CFA is a huge football player market.

Just like agents gather a portfolio of players to but and sell, the CFA is the supply line into that market.

Sad,but true. Allthe jigsaw pieces when put together create that picture....Our CFA was never designed for our 1st team replenishment. If we get one like Phil, all well and good, if we don't, we buy from the CFA profits.

Sounds a bit like you're retrofitting the targets to the outcomes there John Is it just us that are so good the EDS is irrelevant to our first team recruitment? I don't think your analysis would do much to motivate the lads in there either!

A lad in our Academy is more likely to make it in football than a lad at say Bolton or Blackburn or Stoke or even the likes of Rochdale. If a lad doesn’t make it a lower league club he has nowhere to go other than non league or drift out of football altogether. A lad who doesn’t make it us can drop into the lower league team and it’s up to him from there on in. The list above of 40+ names who are playing league football is testament to that.

Coupled with the fact our facilities are second to none, our education programme ensures their studies aren’t forgotten, our youth teams are consistently the best in their class and the fact they share the same facilities as some of the best footballers the country has, all overseen by the worlds best manager whose innovative tactics filter down through the age groups, that is more than enough motivation for any aspiring young lad

[BlueinBosnia]

It doesn't take much brain cranking to work out that the Chavs and all the other clubs at the top of the league are streets ahead of us in producing players for their own first team.

Of the 15 Chelsea players to have made their debuts since Conte took the helm at the start of 2016/17, only 5 are currently at the club. In the same time period, we've given debuts to 15, as well, but 8 are currently with us.

[nottsblue]

Until you come up with a reason yourself you are just moaning bud. I have given you a reason - it is that difficult that only 1 in 50 debutants have stuck.btw. in the last 10 years one of our rivals Chelsea have given 33 debuts to academy players.11 less than us.So c'mon crank up your brain and give us all a reason for your dramatic analysis that the academy is failing.

It doesn't take much brain cranking to work out that the Chavs and all the other clubs at the top of the league are streets ahead of us in producing players for their own first team. Also it's not compulsory to have an answer to the questions we ask on here btw, especially one like yours in this instance which applies to all the academies and is therefore just irrelevant to why we are being outperformed.

But we are at the top of the league. By 12 points.

The points gap over the rags over the last 4 years must be at least 40. Same for Chelsea and Arsenal and Spurs. So they are NOT, I REPEAT NOT, rivals of ours. Not in the sense of them truly challenging us. The dippers I grant you have actually won the league but that was one time in 30 years.

Therefore those clubs teams are inferior to ours which makes it easier to get in and also their expectations are lower than ours which eases pressure on results. It is not a like for like comparison.

For old timers like me mate, the historical perspective is a lot wider than the last few seasons.

We're having our time in the sun again but winter is coming - sooner or later

Absolutely. I couldn’t agree more. We have a long to go to match the trophy hauls and historic achievements of a number of clubs, rags, dippers, Arsenal to name a few. But, we are the top dogs in English football right now and have been for a decade now. And you are right in saying our time at the top will come to an end, but I honestly don’t think it will be for a while yet. And more importantly, the debate on the whether the Academy is producing enough talent over the last few years is about the here and now. Where we are at the top of the tree. On the perch. Top dog. Call it what you will. But as has been debated, the reasons are multi fold as to why, but the main one has to be that to get in our first XI now, you have to be an immensely talented footballer

[johnny crossan]

It doesn't take much brain cranking to work out that the Chavs and all the other clubs at the top of the league are streets ahead of us in producing players for their own first team.

Of the 15 Chelsea players to have made their debuts since Conte took the helm at the start of 2016/17, only 5 are currently at the club. In the same time period, we've given debuts to 15, as well, but 8 are currently with us.

but those five are regulars for the Chavs - Mount, Abraham, James, Hudson Odoi & Christiansen with Gilmour waiting in the wings - already 18 first team appearances so far. That is the point BiB (tedious though it is to have to keep making it)

[Bluemoon4610]

It doesn't take much brain cranking to work out that the Chavs and all the other clubs at the top of the league are streets ahead of us in producing players for their own first team.

Of the 15 Chelsea players to have made their debuts since Conte took the helm at the start of 2016/17, only 5 are currently at the club. In the same time period, we've given debuts to 15, as well, but 8 are currently with us.

but those five are regulars for the Chavs - Mount, Abraham, James, Hudson Odoi & Christiansen with Gilmour waiting in the wings - already 18 first team appearances so far. That is the point BiB (tedious though it is to have to keep making it)

But which of those 5/6 would get anywhere near our 1st team squad? And who would they replace?

[johnny crossan]

It doesn't take much brain cranking to work out that the Chavs and all the other clubs at the top of the league are streets ahead of us in producing players for their own first team.

Of the 15 Chelsea players to have made their debuts since Conte took the helm at the start of 2016/17, only 5 are currently at the club. In the same time period, we've given debuts to 15, as well, but 8 are currently with us.

but those five are regulars for the Chavs - Mount, Abraham, James, Hudson Odoi & Christiansen with Gilmour waiting in the wings - already 18 first team appearances so far. That is the point BiB (tedious though it is to have to keep making it)

But which of those 5/6 would get anywhere near our 1st team squad? And who would they replace?

With respect friend, that is not the point. Their contribution as home grown first team players at an elite club is what matters
Abrahams - 80 apps
Mount - 89 apps
Christensen - 115 apps
James – 65 apps
Hudson Odoi – 89 apps

[nottsblue]

It doesn't take much brain cranking to work out that the Chavs and all the other clubs at the top of the league are streets ahead of us in producing players for their own first team.

Of the 15 Chelsea players to have made their debuts since Conte took the helm at the start of 2016/17, only 5 are currently at the club. In the same time period, we've given debuts to 15, as well, but 8 are currently with us.

but those five are regulars for the Chavs - Mount, Abraham, James, Hudson Odoi & Christiansen with Gilmour waiting in the wings - already 18 first team appearances so far. That is the point BiB (tedious though it is to have to keep making it)

But which of those 5/6 would get anywhere near our 1st team squad? And who would they replace?

Also, they have arguably got their chance due their transfer ban and the manager, Lampard, had no real choice but to pick from what he had. You see now with Tuchel, Abraham is even making their match day squad. Hudson-Odoi has had his attitude called into question. Let’s see how many of them are first team players next season after Tuchel has had a transfer window

[johnny crossan]

It doesn't take much brain cranking to work out that the Chavs and all the other clubs at the top of the league are streets ahead of us in producing players for their own first team.

Of the 15 Chelsea players to have made their debuts since Conte took the helm at the start of 2016/17, only 5 are currently at the club. In the same time period, we've given debuts to 15, as well, but 8 are currently with us.

but those five are regulars for the Chavs - Mount, Abraham, James, Hudson Odoi & Christiansen with Gilmour waiting in the wings - already 18 first team appearances so far. That is the point BiB (tedious though it is to have to keep making it)

But which of those 5/6 would get anywhere near our 1st team squad? And who would they replace?

Also, they have arguably got their chance due their transfer ban and the manager, Lampard, had no real choice but to pick from what he had. You see now with Tuchel, Abraham is even making their match day squad. Hudson-Odoi has had his attitude called into question. Let’s see how many of them are first team players next season after Tuchel has had a transfer window

We'll see NB, there's some talented boys there - and elsewhere - Nathan Ake & Declan Rice to name a couple of ex Chavs

[BlueinBosnia]

It doesn't take much brain cranking to work out that the Chavs and all the other clubs at the top of the league are streets ahead of us in producing players for their own first team.

Of the 15 Chelsea players to have made their debuts since Conte took the helm at the start of 2016/17, only 5 are currently at the club. In the same time period, we've given debuts to 15, as well, but 8 are currently with us.

but those five are regulars for the Chavs - Mount, Abraham, James, Hudson Odoi & Christiansen with Gilmour waiting in the wings - already 18 first team appearances so far. That is the point BiB (tedious though it is to have to keep making it)

No they're not. Only 3 of them are; James, Mount and Hudson Odoi. Gilmour and Tino Anjorin are the other two. Christensen and Tammy Abraham made their debuts before that time. Between them, the 5 have:

Mount - 89 apps
James – 65 apps
Hudson Odoi – 89 apps
Anjorin - 5 apps
Gilmour - 18 apps

So, a total of 266 appearances.

Compared to:

Foden - 107
Gomes - 3
Bernabe - 1
Garcia - 32
Nmecha - 2
Doyle - 7
Delap - 3
Palmer - 2

157 appearances.

Considerably fewer, I agree, but if you adjust for age, there's an evident difference: 3 of Chelsea's 5 are 20 or older, with the other 2 being 19, while 2 of City's are 18, 2 are 19, and 4 are 20. Foden, our oldest, has made 20% more first-team appearances than Mount, who is almost 18 months his senior.

[brite blu sky]

It doesn't take much brain cranking to work out that the Chavs and all the other clubs at the top of the league are streets ahead of us in producing players for their own first team.

Of the 15 Chelsea players to have made their debuts since Conte took the helm at the start of 2016/17, only 5 are currently at the club. In the same time period, we've given debuts to 15, as well, but 8 are currently with us.

but those five are regulars for the Chavs - Mount, Abraham, James, Hudson Odoi & Christiansen with Gilmour waiting in the wings - already 18 first team appearances so far. That is the point BiB (tedious though it is to have to keep making it)

The tedious point you keep making that no-one has disputed is that we have less EDS in our first team. That is a fact.

Another fact is we have been and are consideraby better than other teams/ clubs.

So the point you are not getting is that the comparison is not valid. - Would those players get in our team? Would you prefer we had more EDS players but were just trying to get into the top4 ?

Because the streets ahead in producing for the first team that you so admire - seems to obviously come with a lower expectation of the team they are trying to get into.

again you just sound like you are moaning JC