City Launch Legal Challenge Against PL Charges & Barrister

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Re: City Launch Legal Challenge Against PL Charges & Barrist

Postby johnny crossan » Mon Aug 05, 2024 6:41 pm

zuricity wrote:Is this finished or what ??
not
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Re: City Launch Legal Challenge Against PL Charges & Barrist

Postby nottsblue » Mon Aug 05, 2024 7:14 pm

johnny crossan wrote:
zuricity wrote:Is this finished or what ??
not

And we definitely won’t hear the end of it, even when it finally gets resolved one way or the other
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Re: City Launch Legal Challenge Against PL Charges & Barrist

Postby Indianablue » Tue Aug 13, 2024 6:11 am

115 case brought forward. Being reported that its due to start in September. Thank fuck for that. Sooner we get relegated, the sooner we can get promoted
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Re: City Launch Legal Challenge Against PL Charges & Barrist

Postby stupot » Tue Aug 13, 2024 12:21 pm

If we win the league we'll have won it 5 years running. 21, 22, 23, 24 and 25.
Funnily enough those numbers add up to 115.
Imagine the boiling piss.
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Re: City Launch Legal Challenge Against PL Charges & Barrist

Postby london blue 2 » Tue Aug 13, 2024 2:15 pm

stupot wrote:If we win the league we'll have won it 5 years running. 21, 22, 23, 24 and 25.
Funnily enough those numbers add up to 115.
Imagine the boiling piss.


Stealing this for twitter :)
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Re: City Launch Legal Challenge Against PL Charges & Barrist

Postby Bluemoon4610 » Wed Aug 14, 2024 6:54 am

stupot wrote:If we win the league we'll have won it 5 years running. 21, 22, 23, 24 and 25.
Funnily enough those numbers add up to 115.
Imagine the boiling piss.

Poetic justice, or what! Come on blue boys, do it again this season, just for this!!!
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Re: City Launch Legal Challenge Against PL Charges & Barrist

Postby Original Dub » Wed Aug 14, 2024 6:22 pm

Anyone know what Keith Wyness has said on the subject?

It's like going to Stefan borson for city transfer news every day.

Neither of them have a fucking clue but that doesn't seem to matter these days at all.
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Re: City Launch Legal Challenge Against PL Charges & Barrist

Postby carl_feedthegoat » Wed Aug 14, 2024 10:45 pm

Original Dub wrote:Anyone know what Keith Wyness has said on the subject?

It's like going to Stefan borson for city transfer news every day.

Neither of them have a fucking clue but that doesn't seem to matter these days at all.


Stefan Borson has our corner more than anyone else out there...no idea why you put him in the same pairing as that TiT Wyness.
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Re: City Launch Legal Challenge Against PL Charges & Barrist

Postby Original Dub » Thu Aug 15, 2024 7:09 am

In relation to our court case he does Carl.

Thing is, he's appearing on my news feed nearly every day talking about who we're going to sign next and what he thinks of our incomings and outgoings.

He has no more of clue on that subject than Keith Wyness does on the 115 charges
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Re: City Launch Legal Challenge Against PL Charges & Barrist

Postby carl_feedthegoat » Thu Aug 15, 2024 4:53 pm

Original Dub wrote:In relation to our court case he does Carl.

Thing is, he's appearing on my news feed nearly every day talking about who we're going to sign next and what he thinks of our incomings and outgoings.

He has no more of clue on that subject than Keith Wyness does on the 115 charges



He’s an expert on finances and corporate law from what I’ve seen of him , and that’s plenty on TS , he’s always defending us .

I’ve never heard him say who we are signing or not signing ????
He has only slated us once IMO and that was about us charging handicapped people’s parking - which I’m in favour of and no idea why there is a furore about that .
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Re: City Launch Legal Challenge Against PL Charges & Barrist

Postby Harry Dowd scored » Fri Aug 23, 2024 5:47 pm

This is Colin Savage latest on the case







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First of all, apologies for the delay in producing this second part of my thoughts about City’s PL charges. An unexpected and enforced house move, a health issue (which was fortunately nothing to worry about), a change of role at work and other things I’ve needed to concentrate on have kept me more occupied than I would have preferred. But everything has settled down, so I can return to doing this stuff.

As promised, I’m going to talk about the second heading of the PL’s charges against us, which relate to payments to players and managers. It seems odd to bundle these under one heading, given they appear to relate to two completely different scenarios, that’s what the PL chose to do, plus there’s a common element underlying both. I’ll tackle them separately, with the proviso that we can only make an informed guess as to the exact nature of the allegations. But I think that guess is pretty straightforward in these cases.

Payments to managers

Given the years this charge covers (2009-2013) it can only relate to Mancini and, thanks(?) to Der Spiegel, we can be pretty sure about the specifics.

We know that, alongside his contract with City, he had a side contract with the Al Jazira club in Abu Dhabi, which is also owned by Sheikh Mansour. As part of that contract, Mancini was tasked with providing a minimum of 4 days consultancy a year to Al Jazira, for a sum of £1.75m per annum, which is nice work if you can get it.

The contract wasn’t with Mancini personally however (even though he signed it) but with a company called Sparkleglow Holdings, which he was presumably a director & shareholder of and was registered in Mauritius. It should be noted that Mancini wasn’t obligated to provide that consultancy personally, but that he could supply it via other third-parties qualified to do so.

The media made great play of this contract doubling his salary from City, which was somewhat disingenuous. We know from Der Spiegel that his base salary from City was £1.45m but there were numerous performance incentives built in to his contract. There were bonuses for finishing in the top four, which ranged from £1.5m for a 4th-place finish, up to £4m for winning the PL. There were bonuses for achieving targets in the European competitions and the domestic cups. In the 2010-11 season, when we finished 3rd in the PL and won the FA Cup, he would have received and additional £3.5m on top of his basic £1.45m.

Under the same incentives, he would have received an additional £4m for winning the PL the following season. His base salary also increased however, from £1.45m in 2009-10 to £2.9m in 2010-11 and £3.4m in 2011-12. This was detailed in emails between Garry Cook and Mancini in the summer of 2011. At the same time, it was agreed that the Al Jazira contract would be renegotiated, this time with a company called Italy International Services (IIS). As part of that, the base payment of £1.75 m remained the same but there would be a signing-on fee, plus Italian tax of 45% paid under the contract.

Der Spiegel also produced documents from March & April 2011 showing two payments made by Manchester City on behalf of Al Jazira, under the arrangement. One was described as a “reconciliation” (possibly the backdated tax element of the contract or the signing-on fee) and the other for the quarterly instalment of the normal £1.75m annual fee. It’s this disclosure that gave rise to the claim that City were paying Mancini ‘under the table’ and to potentially avoid problems under FFP.

We can dispose of the FFP-dodging claim pretty quickly. For one thing, Mancini joined in 2009 and FFP didn’t start until 2011. It’s barely conceivable that we felt that the additional £1.75m a year would help us avoid failing FFP. As we know, we recorded significant losses over the first FFP assessment, totalling £150m over the two years ending 2012 and 2013. The £3.5m paid to Mancini during that period was therefore pretty insignificant in the overall scheme of things.

So, did we pay him ‘under the table’ as has been suggested and, if so, why? The reason I assume we undertook this arrangement was due to some tax advantages it may have given Mancini. His City remuneration would have been paid, like all employees, with relevant deductions, including income tax.

Personal service contracts of the type agreed with Al Jazira, are paid gross however, with the recipient being responsible for any applicable taxes, rather than an employer. As a freelance IT consultant, I entered into such contracts regularly, which were standard in that scenario. There used to be financial advantages to these arrangements although these have been very significantly reduced in recent years.

Another possible explanation is that it’s known that Mancini already had a pre-existing relationship with Khaldoon al-Mubarak and therefore may have already had some sort of contract in place. We simply don’t know however, and the actual reason might not be relevant. The key questions are:

• Were City using this contract to pay him off the books?

• Did he actually fulfil the contract to provide services to Al Jazira?

On the surface, the evidence of City making payments might appear to support the first point. But you have to be careful with the Der Spiegel stories. I said at the time that they were selective and lacked context. They’d show an email suggesting that something underhand had been or would be done on sponsorship contracts, without showing the full picture. CAS did see the full picture however and dismissed the idea that anything underhand relating to sponsorships with Etihad had taken place.

To demonstrate the point about context there is an email disclosed within the Mancini documents that showed some payments were netted off against a payment from ADUG, Sheikh Mansour’s company. It’s therefore perfectly possible that City paid out the money but got it back from Sheikh Mansour, the Al Jazira owner. That would negate the idea that City were paying Mancini off the books.

The other part of the scenario is whether Mancini, or his representatives, provided the required consultancy to Al Jazira. If he did, or the PL can’t prove that he didn’t, then I suspect this part of their case will fail to clear the ‘comfortable satisfaction’ hurdle that will be required.

Payments to players

The other part of the second charge relates to payments to players. There was some speculation that payments to Yaya Toure’s agent were part of this but it’s far more likely to be about image rights payments. These are payments to players for use of their voice and image in club publicity and other media scenarios. Why is it paid separately though?

The answer is that, similar to the Mancini Al Jazira contract, it’s paid gross to the players, usually via limited companies (or their equivalent). Doing that reduces a clubs’ overall wage bill, as that part of their remuneration won’t be subject to automatic deduction of income tax or NI. HMRC has a number of cases running against clubs who it feels have abused the payment of image rights. Their rule of thumb is that 10% of a player’s total remuneration is acceptable, but it’s not black and white and can depend on the player’s market ability. So, if a player earns £200k a week, £20k of that can usually be paid as image rights, with the other £180k attracting UK income tax and NI.

In City’s case, the issue revolves around how these payments were made, and who made them. In October 2012, City set up a company called Manchester City Football Club (Image Rights) Limited. This company’s name was changed to Fordham Sports Image Rights in May 2013, although the company had been set up a year earlier and included two senior City employees (John Macbeath and Simon Cliff) as directors. They both stepped down in June 2013, with someone called Graham Robeson seemingly being the main person connected with Fordham from July 2013. Fordham is openly linked to City on the Companies House website, so there was clearly no attempt to hide the company or its purpose.

Back in 2012-13, when City were struggling to meet FFP, they felt they needed additional revenue to avoid being sanctioned. I’ve written about this extensively and don’t propose to revisit this in any detail. One of the ways they raised additional revenue was to sell some players’ image rights to Fordham, for £24.5m. This was reported in the 2013 accounts as “Sale of intellectual property to third parties”.

Basically, Fordham paid us an up-front cash payment to take possession of these image rights, with the responsibility for paying them. What wasn’t clear was what they were getting out of this arrangement and how they were going to fund these payments. It seems that they did pay them, and were reimbursed by someone, presumably ADUG. The key question is whether this source of remuneration was disclosed to UEFA and included in our accounts. FFP rules require the full disclosure of remuneration paid to managers and players, which these payments (to both Mancini & the players) are alleged to have breached.

Following the 2014 settlement with UEFA, and the conditions imposed on us as part of that, it appears unlikely that this would have impacted our FFP compliance, although it’s difficult to be 100% certain. The amounts involved seem to have been in the £12-13m range, maybe a bit higher. It’s important to note that Fordham appears to have been conceived as a mechanism for raising revenue as a one-off, not a deliberate and ongoing attempt to reduce our expenses and FFP losses.

Whatever, UEFA seemingly became aware of the arrangement around 2014 or 2015 and discussed it with the club, according to a story put out by Reuters. Soon after that, the arrangement seems to have been wound down, with image rights payments presumably coming back in-house. The last major injection of cash was in the 2015-16 financial year, with no cash going in since then and the company being put into liquidation in 2022.

That means that the Der Spiegel articles in 2018 about Fordham and the image rights payments were certainly not news to UEFA and no further action was taken by them over it, either at the time or as part of the 2019 charges.

Summary

To summarise therefore:

• This group of charges appear to fall under the requirement to disclose player and manager remuneration.

• Unless the PL’s lawyers can show to the comfortable satisfaction of the Independent Commission that Roberto Mancini’s Al Jazira contract was a calculated attempt by City to hide genuine expenses, I believe their case will fail.

• The Fordham arrangement is more difficult to call, as it originated with the need to raise some additional revenue in 2012/13, and doesn’t appear to have been a deliberate attempt to hide expenses.

• The key question seems to be not the arrangement itself, but whether the payments were declared to the PL/UEFA.

• Fordham was not a secret, and UEFA became aware of it (although we don’t know the substance of the discussions) and the arrangement was wound up by 2017, with no further action by UEFA.

• As the PL is actually the licensor for UEFA re FFP, it’s difficult to imagine they weren’t also aware of Fordham back in 2015. I think the PL will struggle to land this group of charges therefore.
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Re: City Launch Legal Challenge Against PL Charges & Barrist

Postby johnny crossan » Fri Aug 23, 2024 7:39 pm

Thanks for that HD - very good and would have been even better if I knew what he was on about :lol:
here's Borson's latest

also
https://stefanborson.substack.com/p/con ... irect=true
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Re: City Launch Legal Challenge Against PL Charges & Barrist

Postby johnny crossan » Tue Aug 27, 2024 9:14 am

Breaches of UEFA FFP and PL financial rules, non-cooperation plus possible time-barring

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This is the third and hopefully the final part of the series I’ve done on the above, at least until the outcome is known. In it I’ll talk about the other elements of the charges and a bit about time-barring.

There are five main charges, as I’ve said, and I’ve dealt with the two that relate to the accuracy of our accounts (with respect to the sponsorships and related parties) and payments to managers and players. Those are the two substantive ones but there are three other headings. The third and fourth group relate to:

· Rules that require clubs to comply with UEFA’s FFP regulations.

· Rules that require clubs to comply with the PL’s own Profit & Sustainability Rules.

I don’t believe the alleged breaches under these two headings mean that the PL believe we have failed FFP & PSR financially, but that by submitting allegedly inaccurate accounts we’ve breached rules that require us to submit accurate accounts. Some have questioned why UEFA’s FFP is part of these charges, when they have been brought solely by the PL. I believe the reason is that the PL (as do all national football bodies) act as the licensor for FFP on UEFA’s behalf. Therefore if, as alleged, we submitted inaccurate accounts to the PL then we’ll have also breached FFP rules by default.

These charges clearly depend on the two substantive ones, therefore. If the Independent Commission don’t think we’ve breached any rules regarding our revenues and payments, then I believe these other two sets of charges will fail by default. I think it’s unlikely that all the substantive charges will be upheld by the IC but if they were, then it’s worth pointing out that I doubt and that raises an interesting question over potential penalties I believe.

Everton & Nottingham Forest (so far) have suffered points deductions as a result of failing PSR, and the grounds for those deductions has been that by over-spending, they supposedly gained a competitive advantage. I wrote in my post about Everton’s punishment that I felt this was a specious argument as the more Everton spent, the worse their performance and the fewer points they accumulated. I see the logic behind the thinking though.

What if we were found to have breached some or all of the rules we’re alleged to have breached, but we still would have met the PSR requirements, by reporting adjusted aggregate losses within that £105m maximum? Could it still be argued that we have gained a sporting advantage? I’m not sure it could (but I wouldn’t want to put money on that) meaning any sort of sporting penalty (points deductions or the ultimate sanction of expulsion) could be regarded as disproportionate. We’ll have to wait and see.

Time-barring

UEFA’s FFP rules contain a statutory limit meaning any breaches could only be considered if they occurred within the previous five years. CAS heard arguments from both sides about how that limit should be applied but they ruled that it should take effect from the day that UEFA’s Investigatory Chamber passed the charges onto the Adjudicatory Chamber, which was February 14th, 2019, if I remember correctly.

CAS therefore ruled that February 2014 was the cut-off date but that all transactions within the financial year that this date fell into could be included. This was the period from July 1st, 2013, when that financial year commenced. Any transaction in previous financial years (including the Etisalat sponsorship and one year of the Etihad sponsorship) were not part of the hearing.

There’s been a lot of hot air about the fact that the PL rules do not contain a statutory limitation period and therefore all charges from 2009 onwards will be in play. That’s not quite the case, however. The PL rules are framed under English law, and specifically say that English law will apply in any dispute. English law has a statutory 6-year limitation period in commercial matters, and this will apply to our case. There is an exception to this, which is where criminal activity, including fraud, is involved.

Presenting knowingly false accounts is indeed a criminal offence under the Companies Act and potentially it could be argued by the PL’s lawyers that we did just that. If they do, and the commission agrees, then all the breaches, from 2009 onwards will potentially be in the scope of the commission’s remit. I’ve said that I’m reasonably confident that the PL will struggle to meet the ‘balance of probabilities’ test on the substantive charges anyway but what might happen if the commission decide that the criminal activity exception doesn’t apply and that the statutory six-year limit should come into play?

As it did at CAS, it will depend on the commission’s decision on when the date that the limit applies from is. It could be when the breaches were discovered, which was autumn 2018 when the original Der Spiegel articles were published. Or it could follow the CAS logic that it should be when the actual charges were laid, which was February 2023. If that 2023 date is applied, then the limit will be fixed in February 2017, which falls into the 2016/17 financial year. Any transactions prior to that financial period will presumably be out of scope.

That would include all the Mancini/Al Jazira ones, all of the Fordham image rights ones (which end in 2015/16) and all bar two years of the ‘accurate financial information’ (the sponsorship/related party) charges. I could be proven wrong of course, but I don’t believe the PL has a hope in hell of landing those latter charges anyway so if that is the case, barring any negative outcome on the non-cooperation charges, we’d be in the clear on the substantive financial charges. I’m sure City would like to be cleared of everything on the PL’s charge sheet but I’m also sure the lawyers will argue for a limitation period to be applied.

Of course, if that limitation period was applied that would lay us open to the accusation, still levelled at us by some, that we only got off at CAS thanks to time-barring. I’ve been asked about this specific issue by a couple of people so may as well answer it here. We didn’t, in a nutshell, and I’ll explain why.

CAS, as I said, set a date for the limitation period to start, which was five years back from the date that the Adjudicatory chamber was passed the charges, meaning anything that happened prior to the 2013/14 financial year was excluded from consideration. The transactions that covered were one year of the Etihad contract (2012/13) and all the sponsorship from Etisalat. That latter was the one where the obligation was apparently initially covered by Sheikh Mansour’s ADUG. On the surface that seems a prima facie case of equity investment disguised as sponsorship but the official document summarising the hearing at CAS contains details of that contract (as part of City’s submission to the panel) making it clear that UEFA were satisfied that Etisalat had ultimately paid and fully met its contractual obligations. The exact wording is: “In this regard, the Adjudicatory Chamber accepted that Etisalat did pay [£xxx] and that it had a legally binding obligation to do so”.

The implication is that even if the Etisalat contract had been examined by CAS, there would have been no issue with it.

As far as the Etihad sponsorship was concerned, although the 2012/13 payment lay outside the limitation period, with the subsequent payments within it, CAS looked at the contract as a whole and decided that Etihad -

· Had entered into a legitimate contract.

· Had paid the full consideration due under that contract.

· Had received fair value for that consideration.

· It was not disguised equity funding.

It’s therefore completely wrong to say that time-barring had any impact on the CAS decision. I’m grateful to one of my friends in the legal world for pointing out that City are often accused of using time-barring as some sort of loophole, to avoid scrutiny and punishment. However the limitation period, be that five years for UEFA or six years under English law, is a fundamental part of the FFP and PSR rules, alongside all the others. The limitation period is indeed a fundamental concept in commercial law, and definitely not a “loophole”.

The final charge heading is the one covering non-cooperation but without knowing any of the details, it’s impossible to speculate on the potential outcome of that. What I will say is that failure to co-operate is not a purely capricious action on City’s part, because they simply don’t want to.

The process of ‘discovery’ (as it’s known in legal circles) involves each side asking for documents, but those requests have to be for documents that are pertinent to the alleged breaches. The PL can’t simply demand free and unrestricted access to all City’s records and sift through those until they find something. The discussions and arguments will generally be done by, or heavily involve, legal counsel within the organisations involved and external representatives.

If the worst outcome is that City are found to have been uncooperative, then this will presumably involve a fine, rather than a sporting sanction like a points deduction. City can appeal any negative verdict, but only to another PL-appointed commission. The only recourse to civil law is if there’s alleged to have been a serious abuse of process or something similar. We can’t go to court just because we don’t like the verdict.

Summary

To summarise the three articles:

· There appear to be three substantive issues where the PL allege breaches of their rules.

· These issues are:

o Sponsorships (presumably alleged to have been fully or partly funded by Sheikh Mansour).

o Player remuneration (believed to be image rights payments via Fordham mostly).

o Manager remuneration (the Al Jazira contract with Roberto Mancini).

· The sponsorships, which appear to be the most serious, were dealt with at CAS so unless there’s conclusive new evidence these are going to be almost impossible for the PL to prove.

· The other two, particularly the Mancini contract, appear to be less serious and seem to involve lower amounts of money. It’s doubtful whether we’d have had problems with UEFA’s FFP or the PL’s cost-control rules even if the image rights payments had been included directly in our own accounts.

· The remaining charges relating to FFP & the PL’s financial rules appear to be totally dependent on the three above, so should fall be default if those aren’t proven.

· That leaves the charges of non-cooperation, where it’s quite possible that there will be a breach and a sanction, but this should involve a fine if proven and won’t be a sporting sanction of a points deduction.

It’s difficult to be certain of anything given that we don’t fully know the detail of the alleged breaches and the evidence used to support or defend these. I’m reasonably confident though that the apocalyptic predictions of huge points deductions, or even expulsion from the PL, from some of the more wishful members of the media or opposition fan-bases, won’t come to fruition.

If the rumours of the hearing commencing in September are true, it’s unlikely to be finished much before December, with a verdict probably sometime early in 2025. No doubt I’ll have more to say at that time.
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Re: City Launch Legal Challenge Against PL Charges & Barrist

Postby sheblue » Tue Aug 27, 2024 10:09 am

Can't wait for this to be over. Absolutely sick of it all.
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Re: City Launch Legal Challenge Against PL Charges & Barrist

Postby Mase » Tue Aug 27, 2024 10:29 am

sheblue wrote:Can't wait for this to be over. Absolutely sick of it all.


I love that it has ever other teams fans on strings. They’re up all night crying about these charges. I’ll miss that, but it is tiresome
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Re: City Launch Legal Challenge Against PL Charges & Barrist

Postby sheblue » Tue Aug 27, 2024 1:22 pm

Mase wrote:
sheblue wrote:Can't wait for this to be over. Absolutely sick of it all.


I love that it has ever other teams fans on strings. They’re up all night crying about these charges. I’ll miss that, but it is tiresome


I would very much prefer it was all put to bed and we got on with football. I can only imagine that the hassle of this shite must be doing no good to our board members, not to mention the horrific cost of it.
The end of it cant come soon enough.
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Re: City Launch Legal Challenge Against PL Charges & Barrist

Postby carl_feedthegoat » Tue Aug 27, 2024 3:57 pm

I was hoping it would go on for years and years and years. I have enjoyed the boiling piss that other teams spew out at us.....especially straight after another premiership winning game.
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Re: City Launch Legal Challenge Against PL Charges & Barrist

Postby carolina-blue » Tue Aug 27, 2024 6:16 pm

carl_feedthegoat wrote:I was hoping it would go on for years and years and years. I have enjoyed the boiling piss that other teams spew out at us.....especially straight after another premiership winning game.


It might as well , The dye has been cast we will always be known as cheating oil bastards ,so just sit back and enjoy
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Re: City Launch Legal Challenge Against PL Charges & Barrist

Postby littlebig » Wed Aug 28, 2024 10:34 am

If we get relegated, which I can't see happening, will we lose a load of players?
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Re: City Launch Legal Challenge Against PL Charges & Barrist

Postby nottsblue » Wed Aug 28, 2024 10:45 am

littlebig wrote:If we get relegated, which I can't see happening, will we lose a load of players?

Depends on the contracts.
Depends if they agitate for a move. Depends if our income streams depreciate so we have to sell.
If we are still in CL as winners then that could make a difference

I can't see a big enough points deduction to relegate us though
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