Mancini (The Ted Hughes and BBS thread)

[colonel_muck]

we have better players than tottenham. but they look better than us

i'll take our 6 PL clean sheets and comfortable 4th to their 1 clean sheet and lagging behind tbh - and the spuds fans i know tell me they would do the same.

yeah well i'll take two thrilling games against the european champions.

[The Man In Blue]

we have better players than tottenham. but they look better than us

i'll take our 6 PL clean sheets and comfortable 4th to their 1 clean sheet and lagging behind tbh - and the spuds fans i know tell me they would do the same.

yeah well i'll take two thrilling games against the european champions.

then getting beat at bolton?

we will be in the CL next year mate, i'm pretty sure of that.

[Beefymcfc]

Beefers,
The only point we differ on is our possible perception of the future. Like you, I don't KNOW where it will take us. I can only make my opinion on what I see or hear and should we buy a Torres, a Dzeko or a (God forbid) a Rooney, I cannot for the life of me believe mancini will not use them with Tevez. If Mancini does land such a player, I cannot for the life of me believe that he would use that firepower in a more positive set of tactics.
I am not convinced by many of the things mancini has done up to this stage but can see (hope) where it will possibly develop. For that reason and that reason alone I am not happy but willing to put up with the present (over) caution until such time as we see what Mancini does when he gets lands heavier artillery.

Well mate, we seem to be in agreement on most things and let's just hope we are jigging around Eastlands once the season ends. In the mean-time we can look at Mancini's and the teams performances in the upcoming four games. We have 4 winnable games against Brum, Fulham, Stoke and Bolton where I'd expect a minimum 8 points, and should test the side but not really be a concern. Then, to finish that run we've got West Ham away, a game we should all agree won't be a test and should be the icing on the cake.

Minimum 11 points from them 5 and I'll be relatively happy and won't be too concerned about performances, anything less then I may lose the will.

[saulman]

I ask myself the following questions when I am feeling doubtful;

1. Am I confident we will have our highest finish in the Premier League?

Yes

2. Am I confident we will be playing Champions League Football next year?

Yes

3. Has the manager had sufficient time (full season with HIS team?)

No

4. Is there anybody else available that is proven at his level but in this league?

No

5. Is there anybody else AVAILABLE that is proven better than his level in any other league?

No

6. Have we taken points off our benchmark (Top of the league)?

Yes... 3

7. Am I impressed with the majority of his signings?

Yes

Good post.

[the_georgian_genius]

an excellent post on bluemoon that i thought deserved a wider audience on here

I have not posted a long message on this forum for a while, so here goes nothing.

I have been quite amazed at some of the posts concerning Mancini. Now, I do not want to come across as condescending, so please forgive me if that is how it sounds but it seems to me that there are an awful lot of people who do not understand football.

You just do not turn up, buy some top players, sit back and then in a few months start destroying all and sundry. This is something that Sheikh Mansour understands and as long as we are progressing in the right direction he will be patient.

Since, it seems accepted on this forum, that Mourinho is the best manager who has ever lived, a notion propagated in the British Media for so long many believe it must be true, I think some comparative analysis will be useful.

Mancini was brought in to build a winning team and NOT like Ancelotti at Chelsea or Mourinho at Inter, Madrid and to a certain extent even at Chelsea merely add the finishing touches. The reason I have confidence in Mancini is that this is something he has done before. Inter were is a terrible position when he took over but he revolutionised them and won Seria A (at least count his last title if not his first two). The foundation he built allowed Mourinho to take them to the next level and win the Champions League. This, “I do not care about his past success, what has he done for us” argument that keeps getting peddled out on here is with all due respect nonsense. How can you judge how someone will turn out if you do not look at their past record. When Mourinho and Ancelotti joined Chelsea (obviously not at the same time!) they had no experience in English football, but they got their positions by proving that they can win trophies, mainly their Domestic League and the Champions League.* Mancini’s job is different as he has not inherited a team which has finished second/third. He has a lower starting point, and thus his task will take slightly longer. Already, we have a much more balanced team (I am referring to our full Starting XI when everyone is fit) and we are becoming increasingly difficult to beat. There is a reason that people say great teams are built from the back, this is not just a witty adage which sounds good, it is true. All teams need a solid base and Mancini is organising a very solid back line. Once, Tevez, Silva and Balotelli start to gel, with support from Kolarov and Boateng, we will be much more pleasing on the eye.

The reason why Barca get so many plaudits is because they play such beautiful attacking football AND win. This is not easily replicated and is why I have tremendous respect for Michels, Cruyff and Guardiola. However, it took years to perfect this playing style and special coaches to bring the best out of their players. You need an established team to play this type of football, and even Mourinho (never short of bigging himself up) has stated a couple of times this season that he is not Harry Potter! So, if we cannot expect magic from Mourinho, with the players he has at his disposal at Madrid, then how can we expect similar wizardry from Mancini. Although Madrid are sitting pretty at the head of the table a point a head of Barca, they have had some very poor performances this season, but since they now have a solid defence, when they play badly they draw instead of lose. One draw instead of a loss separates the big two in Spain and closer to home we only have to look at Chelsea winning the title last season by you guessed it a solitary point!

It is being said that the ‘rags were there for the taking,’ that if only Mancini took the shackles off we would have wiped the floor with them. I heard the same lines trotted out last season about how the Rags are in decline, about how they are not the force they used to be and while this all may be true they have not gone from Champions League winners to relegation fodder in a couple of seasons. Whether, we like it or not they are still a good team, who know how to play with each other and are unlikely to be turned over at ease by any opposition. People also need to be a bit more thoughtful in their critiques. The idea that more risk equals more reward is true but leaves out the most crucial aspect of that equation, namely, that more risk is exactly that, risky! It seems that many of our supporters have this Del Boy-esque ‘he who dares’ attitude but if I remember correctly didn’t he go bankrupt in the final episode? In fact, it was this fallacious notion which got is into the financial mess we are currently in, as people believed there was more to gain by taking risks without realising (or conveniently sidelining) the fact that there was also more to lose! After last years Derby heartbreaks, what Mancini saw as important was to avoid conceding at the death, in this sense we were successful. How many of us watching that match were half-expecting a Rag winner in extra time? Mancini, but more importantly the players have proven to themselves that they can shut out any opposition if they stay alert and concentrate for the duration of the match. That is a huge psychological boost, and when we play the Rags again, the fear that we may concede in injury time will be eradicated, the Rags have thus lost one of their most potent weapons against us. Mancini’s wry smile at the end of the match indicated that he, better than anyone else understood this.

I know it is disappointing not to win the Derby, but we need to think more long term. Mancini is getting the team to do what is necessary to compete at the highest level, not just so that we can have bragging rights for a few days. If all it takes is a cagey draw against our arch-enemies to instil in our players the belief that we can stop any attack in the League then it is a price worth paying. Pundits are terrified of what we are becoming, that is well-organised, disciplined and tactically astute with enough creative talent to score against even the best of defences, rather than a gung-ho, never say die, win a few lose a few team which they had hoped we would be; basically a more expensive version of Blackpool, capable of pulling off some great victories but too naive to ever compete at the highest level and thus not really a threat to the established elite. Hence, we are treated to a constant barrage by Sky et al of how cautious Mancini is and how this Italian mentality does not work. Well excuse me, but Italy have won 4 World Cups and have produced some of the greatest managers of all time. It is an extremely incompetent way to criticise someone by alluding to that fact that they are disciplined! Maybe it is because many of the pundits have grown up with a different style of football and have never seen a full match involving two non-English teams, but they have such a poor understanding of the game and unfortunately with 24x7 Sky broadcasts some of this seems to have filtered through into the mindsets of our supporters. British football may have a lot of positives but tactics is certainly not one of them!

When you are put in charge to do a job, the way to increase your chances of being successful it not to take unnecessary risks. When Capello was drafted in to become Real Madrid boss he played uninspiring football but guess what he won the League in his first year. As, this was Real Madrid, he was promptly sacked only to be brought back several years later to repeat the trick, which again he did in his first year, before promptly being sacked again. Mourinho was brought in by Moratti to win Inter the Champions League. He did not proceed to play all out attacking football in order to achieve this result. He was patient, he was defensive and he was disciplined (although one might argue at times very dirty). The 1-0 victory at Stamford Bridge was a defensive masterclass, he could have come out and said you know what Abramovich, I am going to thrash your sorry little team to teach you a lesson. Yet, he put his ego to one side, and set out to stop Chelsea scoring, he achieved this and Eto’o got a late goal to rub salt into Chelsea’s wounds. He did not risk conceding, and thus had the last laugh over his former employer’s. Against Barca, when they lost 1-0, Mourinho clearly set out not to concede (even before the red card) and although Inter rode their luck (Bojan’s goal could have easily been allowed, thus giving Barca the aggregate victory) they got the result they needed. He could have just said, if we get an early goal the tie is pretty much over, but he chose not to take the unnecessary risk, and Inter went on to become European Champions. Was Mourinho, ridiculed for such a dour, defensive performance? No, he was lauded as a footballing genius, the man who tamed the mighty Barca, by kicking them off the park. Now, you can say that was Barca, this is the Rags, and that Inter did the business in the first leg so playing not to concede was justified, however, my point remains the same, Mourinho did not want to take unnecessary risks. He may well have got an early goal but Barca may have just as easily countered and got 2 on the break if Inter committed too many men forward. Also, while the Rags are certainly not Barca, we are not Inter (4 straight Seria A titles (at that time) gives teams confidence), Mancini weighed the pros and cons and decided that City could not afford to lose this game and guess what we didn’t. Mourinho won with Inter and as Guardiola said after the match, the result proved Mourinho’s tactics were correct, if we finish well this season, Mancini’s tactics will also have been proven correct. We do not want to be Tottenham ‘beat Inter and then lose to Bolton’ Hotspur. While they did very well last season, they do not look like a team capable of mounting a serious title challenge as they are far too inconsistent.

There are barely a handful of managers in World football (none of whom are available) who are capable of doing the job City require, i.e. building for long term success and Mancini given his past record is certainly one of them. However, it is perfectly clear that some people for whatever reason do not want Mancini in charge of City. Of course that is their prerogative but they start to lose all credibility when they give no reasonable justifications, other than the old clichés of how the Italian mentality will get us nowhere. Chelsea under the Italian Ancelotti set up with Mikel, Ramires and Essien/Zhirkov with a front three of Malouda, Drogba and Anelka and look how well they have done, but De Jong, Yaya Toure, Barry/Milner and Silva, Tevez and Balotelli is seen as far too defensive for this league and means we will never win anything! There is a decent thread on this forum concerning Mancini’s tactics which provide a good indication of how Mancini wants us to set up. However, I envisage once we start winning people will forget all about tactics and mentality and everything else, we like to bring up when we are not getting the results we would have liked. It takes time to build a team and Mancini is making good progress. Many of us are just too impatient and want the finished product now, maybe it is because after so many years of pain we cannot bear to wait any longer or maybe it is just to shut up the media hacks. The investment is not going to just stop so there is no need to feel like we will waste our one and only chance of glory. It is important that the right steps are taken now, in order to build a team that can compete at the upper echelons of football for some time to come not another Blackburn or Leeds that have some success and then go back to mediocrity or worse. Just ignore the media, bear with this team just a little longer and you will see that a little patience makes success taste all the more sweet when it does finally arrive.



* I know Mancini has never won the Champions League and there are questions marks over his ability to do so, but he is certainly good enough to win the League and that is what is being discussed at the moment.

[brite blu sky]

Can we make the above post a sticky on its own?

Seems so spot on that it is almost peverse!

[BobKowalski]

Can we make the above post a sticky on its own?

Seems so spot on that it is almost peverse!

Its spot on in that it states the bleeding obvious. What is worrying is that the bleeding obvious appears to be not quite so obvious to so many people.

I am equally taken by the welter of advice from the media pointing out we are getting it badly wrong. From our Academy to our buying policy to the game last night it would seem we are hopelessly deluding ourselves. I am sure the advice is kindly meant but personally I am quite enjoying our delusional state and long may it continue :)

[Ted Hughes]

It could start off by telling the fucking truth if it's going to be a sticky:

In 2002, not only did Inter manage to make it to the UEFA cup semi-finals, they were also only 45 minutes away from capturing the Scudetto, when they needed to maintain a one-goal advantage over Lazio at Rome's Stadio Olimpico in the final match of the season, and Inter were top of the Serie A table at kick-off. However, a defeat would see Juventus, who were second, or even Roma, in third place, take the title from them, should these sides win. As a result, some Lazio fans were actually openly supporting Inter during this match, as an Inter victory would prevent their bitter rivals Roma from winning the championship. Inter were 2–1 up after only 24 minutes. Lazio equalised during first half injury time and then scored two more goals in the second half to clinch victory that eventually saw Juventus win the championship after their 2–0 victory away to Udinese. The date of this match – 5 May 2002 – still haunts Inter.

2002–03 saw Inter take a respectable second place and also managed to make it to the 2003 Champions League semi-finals against Milan. Although they drew on aggregate 1–1 with Milan, Inter lost on the away goals rule, even though both matches were played in the same stadium. It was another disappointment but they were finally on the right track.


Terrible state my fucking arse.

[Buffalo Soldier]

Can we make the above post a sticky on its own?

Seems so spot on that it is almost peverse!

Can we also add a banner at the top of the page which reads "just because I criticise doesn't mean I want the manager sacked" as a lot of people seem to be missing that point.

That poster can dress up last night's result however he wants, the simple fact is that Mancini shit out of it big time. Now it may be that that point ends up making the difference between finishing 5th and 4th, 3rd or 2nd etc in which case it's job done, but that doesn't mean that he can't be criticised for it. We may also miss out on 4th by a point.

The poster seems to suggest that any form of attacking would have been 'he who dares wins' whilst completely ignoring the fact that there may have been a middle ground of being cautious but still having the balls to commit more than 2 players forward on occasion.

He also seems to suggest that it was tactical genius by Mancini which proves that United can't get past us and won't be scoring any more last minute goals. As far as I'm concerned, Mancini played EXACTLY the same tactics as last seasons derby, didn't seem to learn his lesson at all and was lucky that they didn't snatch another last minute winner.

I don't want the manager sacked, I'm happy with some of our performances, unhappy with others and fuming about the derby but absolutely delighted that we are 4 points clear in 4th. Carry on Bobby, but please to fucking god, have a bit of adventure in next season's battle against the scum.

[the_georgian_genius]

It could start off by telling the fucking truth if it's going to be a sticky:

In 2002, not only did Inter manage to make it to the UEFA cup semi-finals, they were also only 45 minutes away from capturing the Scudetto, when they needed to maintain a one-goal advantage over Lazio at Rome's Stadio Olimpico in the final match of the season, and Inter were top of the Serie A table at kick-off. However, a defeat would see Juventus, who were second, or even Roma, in third place, take the title from them, should these sides win. As a result, some Lazio fans were actually openly supporting Inter during this match, as an Inter victory would prevent their bitter rivals Roma from winning the championship. Inter were 2–1 up after only 24 minutes. Lazio equalised during first half injury time and then scored two more goals in the second half to clinch victory that eventually saw Juventus win the championship after their 2–0 victory away to Udinese. The date of this match – 5 May 2002 – still haunts Inter.

2002–03 saw Inter take a respectable second place and also managed to make it to the 2003 Champions League semi-finals against Milan. Although they drew on aggregate 1–1 with Milan, Inter lost on the away goals rule, even though both matches were played in the same stadium. It was another disappointment but they were finally on the right track.


Terrible state my fucking arse.

What about the actual season before he took over though Ted? the 2003-2004 season.

League - 4th by a point, 23 points behind the champions.
Champions League - knocked out in the group stage behind Arsenal and Lokomotiv Moscow which included a 5-1 home defeat by Arsenal.
Uefa Cup - Knocked out in the quarter finals.
Coppa Italia - semis
Plus 3 managers in a season.

For a club as big as Inter Milan i would say they were in a terrible state by their standards.

[BobKowalski]

It could start off by telling the fucking truth if it's going to be a sticky:

In 2002, not only did Inter manage to make it to the UEFA cup semi-finals, they were also only 45 minutes away from capturing the Scudetto, when they needed to maintain a one-goal advantage over Lazio at Rome's Stadio Olimpico in the final match of the season, and Inter were top of the Serie A table at kick-off. However, a defeat would see Juventus, who were second, or even Roma, in third place, take the title from them, should these sides win. As a result, some Lazio fans were actually openly supporting Inter during this match, as an Inter victory would prevent their bitter rivals Roma from winning the championship. Inter were 2–1 up after only 24 minutes. Lazio equalised during first half injury time and then scored two more goals in the second half to clinch victory that eventually saw Juventus win the championship after their 2–0 victory away to Udinese. The date of this match – 5 May 2002 – still haunts Inter.

2002–03 saw Inter take a respectable second place and also managed to make it to the 2003 Champions League semi-finals against Milan. Although they drew on aggregate 1–1 with Milan, Inter lost on the away goals rule, even though both matches were played in the same stadium. It was another disappointment but they were finally on the right track.

Terrible state my fucking arse.

As quoted from the Inter Milan Wiki page under the heading 'Hard Times'

The period under Mancini is under the heading 'Resurrection'

Like it or not and irrespective of the relative states of Inter and City it is true to say that Mancini laid the foundations of success that Inter enjoy today. Mancini is employed to do the same at City and at times it ain't going to be pretty or popular. But it still needs doing.

[brite blu sky]

Can we make the above post a sticky on its own?

Seems so spot on that it is almost peverse!

Can we also add a banner at the top of the page which reads "just because I criticise doesn't mean I want the manager sacked" as a lot of people seem to be missing that point.

That poster can dress up last night's result however he wants, the simple fact is that Mancini shit out of it big time. Now it may be that that point ends up making the difference between finishing 5th and 4th, 3rd or 2nd etc in which case it's job done, but that doesn't mean that he can't be criticised for it. We may also miss out on 4th by a point.

The poster seems to suggest that any form of attacking would have been 'he who dares wins' whilst completely ignoring the fact that there may have been a middle ground of being cautious but still having the balls to commit more than 2 players forward on occasion.

He also seems to suggest that it was tactical genius by Mancini which proves that United can't get past us and won't be scoring any more last minute goals. As far as I'm concerned, Mancini played EXACTLY the same tactics as last seasons derby, didn't seem to learn his lesson at all and was lucky that they didn't snatch another last minute winner.

I don't want the manager sacked, I'm happy with some of our performances, unhappy with others and fuming about the derby but absolutely delighted that we are 4 points clear in 4th. Carry on Bobby, but please to fucking god, have a bit of adventure in next season's battle against the scum.

I can understand that, but at the same time that is why the bloke has written what he has, because fuming posters write exaggerated stuff that goes ott and any kind of perspective gets lost. Yes it is understandable especially after the derby but his point is trying to bring in some perspective. Not losing was an achievement, not winning and not going for it was a disappointment. One game doesn't make a season, as it doesn't define a player or a manager.

[Blue Since 76]

Keeping this on Mancini, I still think his position is basically untenable. He's turned into Ranieri - if he doesn't get us to top 4, he'll get sacked, but if he does, we'll stand a chance of attracting a 'top' coach and he'll be out as soon as the contract's agreed.

I think the one thing which could save him is to play decent football, the sort you'd expect for several hundred million investment. If he makes us look like Barca and we're still winning, why would anyone want to change it and the fans would be happy, the stadium would sell out more qickly, people in Nepal would be buying de Jong replica tops, we'd be convinced he could win a title and everything would be rosy.

As I can't see the middle paragraph happening, he'll be gone in summer either way.

That's not what you were saying when Hughes was in charge and we were failing to meet our targets. Yet now you want man sacked who is getting us there???

It WAS about Hughes all this time after all wasn't it? I was right on the money all the time. Shit, I even questioned myself occasionally.

Where does Hughes come into it? I wasn't even a fan. I remember starting one thread in about November of his first season, suggesting he should be given more time, partly as I couldn't see a better candidate. It was in response to that that Mancini's name was suggested, who at the time I knew nothing about and said so. By the xmas, I was firmly in the Hughes out camp and remained there for the next 11 months.

Regarding what I actually said in the post above, nowhere have I said I want Mancini sacked. I expressed an opinion that I don't think he will be kept if he makes the CL if they can attract a Hiddink/Mourinho. If he doesn't make CL he'll be gone as well, but we might end up with an O'Neill type appointment. That's my opinion based on what we see in the press and on the pitch. Performances are patchy, there's little excitement or much to attract new and foreign fans. Unless he can bring that and some on here think it's his preferred style, I think he'll be gone.

That has nothing to do with what I think of him, either way, and I doubt my (or anyone on here's)opinion would have much sway on his tenure anyway.

[BobKowalski]

"He also seems to suggest that it was tactical genius by Mancini which proves that United can't get past us and won't be scoring any more last minute goals. As far as I'm concerned, Mancini played EXACTLY the same tactics as last seasons derby, didn't seem to learn his lesson at all and was lucky that they didn't snatch another last minute winner. "

It ain't luck. Mancini is squeezing out the unnecessary lapses in concentration thereby diminishing the likelihood of it happening. Mancini was delighted we didn't concede and that we concentrated ('concentrate, concentrate') for the full duration of the match. Players that concentrate for the full duration make less silly mistakes which in turn wins you more matches or that the very least means you don't lose them. He also ships out players who do wander off with the fairies and doesn't play those who can't be trusted not to wander off with the fairies. If people can't see that then they haven't been paying attention.

[Niall Quinns Discopants]

Keeping this on Mancini, I still think his position is basically untenable. He's turned into Ranieri - if he doesn't get us to top 4, he'll get sacked, but if he does, we'll stand a chance of attracting a 'top' coach and he'll be out as soon as the contract's agreed.

I think the one thing which could save him is to play decent football, the sort you'd expect for several hundred million investment. If he makes us look like Barca and we're still winning, why would anyone want to change it and the fans would be happy, the stadium would sell out more qickly, people in Nepal would be buying de Jong replica tops, we'd be convinced he could win a title and everything would be rosy.

As I can't see the middle paragraph happening, he'll be gone in summer either way.

That's not what you were saying when Hughes was in charge and we were failing to meet our targets. Yet now you want man sacked who is getting us there???

It WAS about Hughes all this time after all wasn't it? I was right on the money all the time. Shit, I even questioned myself occasionally.

Where does Hughes come into it? I wasn't even a fan. I remember starting one thread in about November of his first season, suggesting he should be given more time, partly as I couldn't see a better candidate. It was in response to that that Mancini's name was suggested, who at the time I knew nothing about and said so. By the xmas, I was firmly in the Hughes out camp and remained there for the next 11 months.

Regarding what I actually said in the post above, nowhere have I said I want Mancini sacked. I expressed an opinion that I don't think he will be kept if he makes the CL if they can attract a Hiddink/Mourinho. If he doesn't make CL he'll be gone as well, but we might end up with an O'Neill type appointment. That's my opinion based on what we see in the press and on the pitch. Performances are patchy, there's little excitement or much to attract new and foreign fans. Unless he can bring that and some on here think it's his preferred style, I think he'll be gone.

That has nothing to do with what I think of him, either way, and I doubt my (or anyone on here's)opinion would have much sway on his tenure anyway.

fuck me. Sorry. I thought you were another poster.

I actually agree with that if he doesn't make CL, he'll be gone. If he does though, I don't think he'll be sacked. Certainly not because couple of people on the Internet want gung ho football (I hope some people will recognise what I did there!).

[Ted Hughes]

It could start off by telling the fucking truth if it's going to be a sticky:

In 2002, not only did Inter manage to make it to the UEFA cup semi-finals, they were also only 45 minutes away from capturing the Scudetto, when they needed to maintain a one-goal advantage over Lazio at Rome's Stadio Olimpico in the final match of the season, and Inter were top of the Serie A table at kick-off. However, a defeat would see Juventus, who were second, or even Roma, in third place, take the title from them, should these sides win. As a result, some Lazio fans were actually openly supporting Inter during this match, as an Inter victory would prevent their bitter rivals Roma from winning the championship. Inter were 2–1 up after only 24 minutes. Lazio equalised during first half injury time and then scored two more goals in the second half to clinch victory that eventually saw Juventus win the championship after their 2–0 victory away to Udinese. The date of this match – 5 May 2002 – still haunts Inter.

2002–03 saw Inter take a respectable second place and also managed to make it to the 2003 Champions League semi-finals against Milan. Although they drew on aggregate 1–1 with Milan, Inter lost on the away goals rule, even though both matches were played in the same stadium. It was another disappointment but they were finally on the right track.

Terrible state my fucking arse.

As quoted from the Inter Milan Wiki page under the heading 'Hard Times'

The period under Mancini is under the heading 'Resurrection'

Like it or not and irrespective of the relative states of Inter and City it is true to say that Mancini laid the foundations of success that Inter enjoy today. Mancini is employed to do the same at City and at times it ain't going to be pretty or popular. But it still needs doing.

I don't give a flying fuck what the header said. The 'terrible state' Inter were in when he took over was a fucking sight better position than the 'terrible state' we're in now & in fact if he gets us into the same 'terrible state' at the end of this season we'll all be fucking celebrating. What is it with you people & this bloke? Every time he does something that brings criticism a buch of fucking disciples turn up to tell us how we're all mistaken & weren't bored shitless at all. It's like fucking North Korea.

For the record, there's hardly anyone on here who wants Mancini out, in fact I've already said I don't want him out for missing 4th if the team's looking good by then. The point is he makes mistakes, he sometimes plays piss boring football & people are entitled to criticise him for that & praise him when he gets it right & discuss the possible consequences of either. Spouting a load of complete shite about his record at Inter isn't going to brainwash everyone into thinking the derby was anything other than bobbins & I don't understand why anyone feels the need to do try.

[brite blu sky]

I don't give a flying fuck what the header said. The 'terrible state' Inter were in when he took over was a fucking sight better position than the 'terrible state' we're in now

Really not sure where you are coming from here Ted, the usual thoughtful analysis seems to have gone out of the window in response to posters who are suggesting patience towards Mancini. I know you have said you dont want him out but you are getting a right beef on about everything not being as you want it right now. Dont get me wrong criticism is great and needed, especially the thought out type that you offer, but i sense a real hardening of your temperament recently and more acid in the criticism.

Were you expecting everything to be honky dory by now or what?

[Ted Hughes]

I don't give a flying fuck what the header said. The 'terrible state' Inter were in when he took over was a fucking sight better position than the 'terrible state' we're in now

Really not sure where you are coming from here Ted, the usual thoughtful analysis seems to have gone out of the window in response to posters who are suggesting patience towards Mancini. I know you have said you dont want him out but you are getting a right beef on about everything not being as you want it right now. Dont get me wrong criticism is great and needed, especially the thought out type that you offer, but i sense a real hardening of your temperament recently and more acid in the criticism.

Were you expecting everything to be honky dory by now or what?

Absolutely not. I'm just fucking sick of people pretending everything's right when it goes wrong. WBA game= good. Rags game= shite. When people have the audacity to say so, there's no need for a thousand word eulogy about the precieved exploits of Mancini in Italy to tell us how stupid we all are for daring to want to attack a bit more at home v the weakest rags side for 20 years.

[saulman]

an excellent post on bluemoon that i thought deserved a wider audience on here

I have not posted a long message on this forum for a while, so here goes nothing.

I have been quite amazed at some of the posts concerning Mancini. Now, I do not want to come across as condescending, so please forgive me if that is how it sounds but it seems to me that there are an awful lot of people who do not understand football.

You just do not turn up, buy some top players, sit back and then in a few months start destroying all and sundry. This is something that Sheikh Mansour understands and as long as we are progressing in the right direction he will be patient.

Since, it seems accepted on this forum, that Mourinho is the best manager who has ever lived, a notion propagated in the British Media for so long many believe it must be true, I think some comparative analysis will be useful.

Mancini was brought in to build a winning team and NOT like Ancelotti at Chelsea or Mourinho at Inter, Madrid and to a certain extent even at Chelsea merely add the finishing touches. The reason I have confidence in Mancini is that this is something he has done before. Inter were is a terrible position when he took over but he revolutionised them and won Seria A (at least count his last title if not his first two). The foundation he built allowed Mourinho to take them to the next level and win the Champions League. This, “I do not care about his past success, what has he done for us” argument that keeps getting peddled out on here is with all due respect nonsense. How can you judge how someone will turn out if you do not look at their past record. When Mourinho and Ancelotti joined Chelsea (obviously not at the same time!) they had no experience in English football, but they got their positions by proving that they can win trophies, mainly their Domestic League and the Champions League.* Mancini’s job is different as he has not inherited a team which has finished second/third. He has a lower starting point, and thus his task will take slightly longer. Already, we have a much more balanced team (I am referring to our full Starting XI when everyone is fit) and we are becoming increasingly difficult to beat. There is a reason that people say great teams are built from the back, this is not just a witty adage which sounds good, it is true. All teams need a solid base and Mancini is organising a very solid back line. Once, Tevez, Silva and Balotelli start to gel, with support from Kolarov and Boateng, we will be much more pleasing on the eye.

The reason why Barca get so many plaudits is because they play such beautiful attacking football AND win. This is not easily replicated and is why I have tremendous respect for Michels, Cruyff and Guardiola. However, it took years to perfect this playing style and special coaches to bring the best out of their players. You need an established team to play this type of football, and even Mourinho (never short of bigging himself up) has stated a couple of times this season that he is not Harry Potter! So, if we cannot expect magic from Mourinho, with the players he has at his disposal at Madrid, then how can we expect similar wizardry from Mancini. Although Madrid are sitting pretty at the head of the table a point a head of Barca, they have had some very poor performances this season, but since they now have a solid defence, when they play badly they draw instead of lose. One draw instead of a loss separates the big two in Spain and closer to home we only have to look at Chelsea winning the title last season by you guessed it a solitary point!

It is being said that the ‘rags were there for the taking,’ that if only Mancini took the shackles off we would have wiped the floor with them. I heard the same lines trotted out last season about how the Rags are in decline, about how they are not the force they used to be and while this all may be true they have not gone from Champions League winners to relegation fodder in a couple of seasons. Whether, we like it or not they are still a good team, who know how to play with each other and are unlikely to be turned over at ease by any opposition. People also need to be a bit more thoughtful in their critiques. The idea that more risk equals more reward is true but leaves out the most crucial aspect of that equation, namely, that more risk is exactly that, risky! It seems that many of our supporters have this Del Boy-esque ‘he who dares’ attitude but if I remember correctly didn’t he go bankrupt in the final episode? In fact, it was this fallacious notion which got is into the financial mess we are currently in, as people believed there was more to gain by taking risks without realising (or conveniently sidelining) the fact that there was also more to lose! After last years Derby heartbreaks, what Mancini saw as important was to avoid conceding at the death, in this sense we were successful. How many of us watching that match were half-expecting a Rag winner in extra time? Mancini, but more importantly the players have proven to themselves that they can shut out any opposition if they stay alert and concentrate for the duration of the match. That is a huge psychological boost, and when we play the Rags again, the fear that we may concede in injury time will be eradicated, the Rags have thus lost one of their most potent weapons against us. Mancini’s wry smile at the end of the match indicated that he, better than anyone else understood this.

I know it is disappointing not to win the Derby, but we need to think more long term. Mancini is getting the team to do what is necessary to compete at the highest level, not just so that we can have bragging rights for a few days. If all it takes is a cagey draw against our arch-enemies to instil in our players the belief that we can stop any attack in the League then it is a price worth paying. Pundits are terrified of what we are becoming, that is well-organised, disciplined and tactically astute with enough creative talent to score against even the best of defences, rather than a gung-ho, never say die, win a few lose a few team which they had hoped we would be; basically a more expensive version of Blackpool, capable of pulling off some great victories but too naive to ever compete at the highest level and thus not really a threat to the established elite. Hence, we are treated to a constant barrage by Sky et al of how cautious Mancini is and how this Italian mentality does not work. Well excuse me, but Italy have won 4 World Cups and have produced some of the greatest managers of all time. It is an extremely incompetent way to criticise someone by alluding to that fact that they are disciplined! Maybe it is because many of the pundits have grown up with a different style of football and have never seen a full match involving two non-English teams, but they have such a poor understanding of the game and unfortunately with 24x7 Sky broadcasts some of this seems to have filtered through into the mindsets of our supporters. British football may have a lot of positives but tactics is certainly not one of them!

When you are put in charge to do a job, the way to increase your chances of being successful it not to take unnecessary risks. When Capello was drafted in to become Real Madrid boss he played uninspiring football but guess what he won the League in his first year. As, this was Real Madrid, he was promptly sacked only to be brought back several years later to repeat the trick, which again he did in his first year, before promptly being sacked again. Mourinho was brought in by Moratti to win Inter the Champions League. He did not proceed to play all out attacking football in order to achieve this result. He was patient, he was defensive and he was disciplined (although one might argue at times very dirty). The 1-0 victory at Stamford Bridge was a defensive masterclass, he could have come out and said you know what Abramovich, I am going to thrash your sorry little team to teach you a lesson. Yet, he put his ego to one side, and set out to stop Chelsea scoring, he achieved this and Eto’o got a late goal to rub salt into Chelsea’s wounds. He did not risk conceding, and thus had the last laugh over his former employer’s. Against Barca, when they lost 1-0, Mourinho clearly set out not to concede (even before the red card) and although Inter rode their luck (Bojan’s goal could have easily been allowed, thus giving Barca the aggregate victory) they got the result they needed. He could have just said, if we get an early goal the tie is pretty much over, but he chose not to take the unnecessary risk, and Inter went on to become European Champions. Was Mourinho, ridiculed for such a dour, defensive performance? No, he was lauded as a footballing genius, the man who tamed the mighty Barca, by kicking them off the park. Now, you can say that was Barca, this is the Rags, and that Inter did the business in the first leg so playing not to concede was justified, however, my point remains the same, Mourinho did not want to take unnecessary risks. He may well have got an early goal but Barca may have just as easily countered and got 2 on the break if Inter committed too many men forward. Also, while the Rags are certainly not Barca, we are not Inter (4 straight Seria A titles (at that time) gives teams confidence), Mancini weighed the pros and cons and decided that City could not afford to lose this game and guess what we didn’t. Mourinho won with Inter and as Guardiola said after the match, the result proved Mourinho’s tactics were correct, if we finish well this season, Mancini’s tactics will also have been proven correct. We do not want to be Tottenham ‘beat Inter and then lose to Bolton’ Hotspur. While they did very well last season, they do not look like a team capable of mounting a serious title challenge as they are far too inconsistent.

There are barely a handful of managers in World football (none of whom are available) who are capable of doing the job City require, i.e. building for long term success and Mancini given his past record is certainly one of them. However, it is perfectly clear that some people for whatever reason do not want Mancini in charge of City. Of course that is their prerogative but they start to lose all credibility when they give no reasonable justifications, other than the old clichés of how the Italian mentality will get us nowhere. Chelsea under the Italian Ancelotti set up with Mikel, Ramires and Essien/Zhirkov with a front three of Malouda, Drogba and Anelka and look how well they have done, but De Jong, Yaya Toure, Barry/Milner and Silva, Tevez and Balotelli is seen as far too defensive for this league and means we will never win anything! There is a decent thread on this forum concerning Mancini’s tactics which provide a good indication of how Mancini wants us to set up. However, I envisage once we start winning people will forget all about tactics and mentality and everything else, we like to bring up when we are not getting the results we would have liked. It takes time to build a team and Mancini is making good progress. Many of us are just too impatient and want the finished product now, maybe it is because after so many years of pain we cannot bear to wait any longer or maybe it is just to shut up the media hacks. The investment is not going to just stop so there is no need to feel like we will waste our one and only chance of glory. It is important that the right steps are taken now, in order to build a team that can compete at the upper echelons of football for some time to come not another Blackburn or Leeds that have some success and then go back to mediocrity or worse. Just ignore the media, bear with this team just a little longer and you will see that a little patience makes success taste all the more sweet when it does finally arrive.



* I know Mancini has never won the Champions League and there are questions marks over his ability to do so, but he is certainly good enough to win the League and that is what is being discussed at the moment.

I know this is a ridiculously long post but it's well worth every minute you spend reading it. Someone should email it to Sky and MoTD.

[Im_Spartacus]

I know this is a ridiculously long post but it's well worth every minute you spend reading it. Someone should email it to Sky and MoTD.

I don't get it.

The analogy with Mourinho's Inter playing against Barca which took 5 minutes of my life to read misses the point entirely. He won the fucking tie. He won the tie by beating the team at home, and by attacking them at home because he knew it would be batten down the hatches back at their gaff. He played the tie perfectly, our tactics are far from perfect as they underuse half of the talent on the pitch.

If we score in those big games, Mancini looks like a genius, but I think it is more down to luck than judgement. Mancini apologists will obviously use the Chelsea games this and last year as the evidence to the contrary, but the results, as on Wednesday night is not the full story of what is going on with our football - because on the face of it, a 0-0 draw against a team on a 24 match unbeaten run is a good result if taken in isolation. When you look at the bigger picture though, we had an opportunity to give them a right going over, and failed to even try to take it, just as we did at Arsenal & home vs United last season (which I believe ultimately cost us a Champions league spot)

Draws were no good to us in those games, because we were playing catch up, but we played for the draw in 2 games, and out of a clearly winnable 6 points, we came away with 1. Those 6 points were there for the taking, and he CHOSE not to go for them.

The Chelsea implosion after half time last year was for me, totally unprecedented. Some will say we pressured them into mistakes, others will say Chelsea had a bad day at the office in that 2nd half. The fact was, we were fucking abject, dire, dreadful in that first half, and yet again it was sheer persistance by Tevez that turned the game.

I don't buy into any tactic that is basically defend like fuck and give it to Tevez, which is how we beat Chelsea (and for that matter most of our other games) this year, and how we have played every game against the sky 4 under Mancini - you have to have luck for that to work, and football is based on skill, not luck.

Its not a tactic, thats a limited manager, inhibiting the natural abilities of his players.

It boils down to this: If you defend for a draw, you MIGHT get it, but if you don't try to score, you can't win without luck. I would prefer to rely on my players' ability rather than a bit of luck.