FFP Again

[Socrates]

The fact we are going to meet the UEFA fair play is probably behind the rags attempt to introduce a Prem fair play that is stricter and stops us growing to their size...

[Beefymcfc]

The fact we are going to meet the UEFA fair play is probably behind the rags attempt to introduce a Prem fair play that is stricter and stops us growing to their size...

If it was introduced now then we would be forever in their shadow. Luckily, we have people who know about this shit and it will take them years before the reporting periods are in place.

It's the whole concept I begrudge mate, not allowing another team to live the dream, cementing the current hierachy in place.

Definately an American led strategy, all about the Wonga, never about the sport.

[Socrates]

The fact we are going to meet the UEFA fair play is probably behind the rags attempt to introduce a Prem fair play that is stricter and stops us growing to their size...

If it was introduced now then we would be forever in their shadow. Luckily, we have people who know about this shit and it will take them years before the reporting periods are in place.

It's the whole concept I begrudge mate, not allowing another team to live the dream, cementing the current hierachy in place.

Definately an American led strategy, all about the Wonga, never about the sport.

I'm against the concept too, not concerned overly now by the UEFA FFP but I fear the Prem proposals may go a lot deeper, talks of wage caps are not good for us...

[DoomMerchant]

If it was introduced now then we would be forever in their shadow. Luckily, we have people who know about this shit and it will take them years before the reporting periods are in place.

It's the whole concept I begrudge mate, not allowing another team to live the dream, cementing the current hierachy in place.

Definately an American led strategy, all about the Wonga, never about the sport.

Why do you think it's American led?

That's horseshit.

[Beefymcfc]

If it was introduced now then we would be forever in their shadow. Luckily, we have people who know about this shit and it will take them years before the reporting periods are in place.

It's the whole concept I begrudge mate, not allowing another team to live the dream, cementing the current hierachy in place.

Definately an American led strategy, all about the Wonga, never about the sport.

Why do you think it's American led?

That's horseshit.

Let me see. Two of the biggest clubs, globally supported, telling everyone else how it is. Who gains from such a proposal?

Horseshit you say? Who are these people you say? Well, it's not you or me sunshine, it's someone quite close without your morals.

[Swales4ever]

Sir John,
with utmost respect.
I ackowledge I may have made some mess trying to melt a variety of reasons why I don't think that FFP and EPL FFP are a serious menace in the same pot in no more than 10 minutes. My poor and bizzare use of Your language didnt help too.

Let's put it this way: when City bids for success and trophies, internationally or domestically, will actually be stopped, or even dumped by whatsoever sanction (other than a minor, merely exemplary fine or warning) arising from European or Domestic FFP, I'll present my ass to your public flogging in Albert square.
since then i remain convinced that:

* UEFA nor FA/PL will not be able to impose major sanction (from points deduction up to competition ban/withdrawal of licence) to MCFC for whatsoever financial related issue.
* Should they desperately try and impose such a sanction, FFP will be challenged before European justice and overruled because, whether formally complying with EU treaties or not, it factually prevent free access to the supposed free market of professional football by enforcing an oligopoly dominant position.
* Should the domestic establishment actually try to force the FA / PL hand towards the same path, the card of political pressure on the government will be played even before suing them for abuse of oligopoly power deemed to trade-distorting and subsequent loss of profit either in respect of direct football revenues and diminished promotional appeal for the AD brand.
* It still remains unaccounted the potential ability of the Owner, as member of a Severeign Ruling Family, with direct access to the diplomatic upper instances and as a beneficial Investor on the domestic economy, to influence either the voice of the British Government towards FA / PL, and several votes inside FIFA and, indirectly, UEFA.

I am not at all convinced that mr. Gill and the owning family of his Club, who are milking wealth from the the system of English Football year after year, as opposite of the wealth that ADUG are injecting in the same system with their "ruining operations", are in a position strong enough to impose their will over the above factors.

shall see: in the meanwhile, can I just keep on laughing on FFPR, although I am not able to express my point of view in an eloquent enough language nor I am bothered to substantiate it with researched data and details?

[Piccsnumberoneblue]

I was thinking about this earlier. let's take Aston Villa, a club that we know will be hamstrung by FFP for any future glory. Randy Lerner knows that he can't afford to compete with the top clubs, and therefore is not going to see Villa win the League or even qualify for the Champions' League. He can now achieve mid table obscurity at a lower price. He wasn't gonna win it anyway, now failure will be cheaper for him. . . . . And he can blame 'the rules'.
Would Randy Lerner vote for FFP? Possibly.

Let's say you are a billionairre looking to emulate Manchester City, PSG, Chelsea, etc. And you think, I'll buy a club for an inflated price(as they all do), and spend lavish amounts of cash getting them to a point where they can compete in Europe. UEFA might have their regulations but until this club gets to that point, FFP can go do one.

Now he has a choice, he can buy a club in Spain(no domestic FFP), Italy(no domestic FFP) or England(domestic FFP). Now which do you think he is going to purchase?

On the flipside, Randy Lerner with his Aston Villa will never compete and the only chance he has to make a significant profit and get out of the club is to sell to a rich billionairre who wants to spend this money, do you think he is going to willingly hurt the resale value and attractiveness of his club in order for Manchester fucking United to maintain their monopoly across the board?

Where...exactly where is the upside for him in voting for it? Because it will screw City and Chelsea? Because he gets a fall guy for his clubs inability to compete? Give me a fucking break, if it doesn't have a $$$$ sign attached to it, he wouldn't give a flying fuck about voting for it.

Cheers for that Slim. I'm trying to work out if there is a reason for the likes of Villa, Everton, Newcastle etc to vote it in. It had crossed my mind that the chance to sell it on is diminished, except if it is a profitable business as it stands, which supposedly FFP will encourage. I wonder how supporters will react at these clubs if the final hope is crushed. There has been a drift away gradually by supporters of this type of club, would it become a stampede?

The reason they could vote it in, is if they think it will lead to a position where they are making handsome profits from their midtable obscurity season after season. IF it looks likely that they can, the Prem becomes a multimillionaire's playground rather than a billionaire's, and the net result would be more businessmen owning clubs and less football enthusiasts.

That is pretty much the lines I was thinking along. If costs can be cut and Villa can make a profit each year they remain an attractive proposition. But will Villa fans wear it long term? Will they keep turning up season after season to watch dross? I'm not so sure.
And will English clubs still be successful in Europe? Or will we be restricting ourselves from bringing in the very best talent to the Premier League?

[Piccsnumberoneblue]

Slim,
An interesting scenario and a point well made Mate but I think it is only one scenario of a number.
Premier league clubs are global brands and irrespective of the profit that the actual club makes, they can also be used as a vehicle to raise the global profile of the owners other interests.

The ADUG group made it quite clear at the time of their take over that they wanted to use the CITY brand to attach other businesses to. Consider the profile of a Premier League club, shown globally on TV once possibly twice a week, plus all the additional programmes, radio coverage, on-line and newspaper coverage. It makes owning a Premier League club almost cheap, as long as the profile is handled right.

I have no knowledge of Lerner's situation but with the new TV deal, there is plenty of scope for profit at Villa.

I remember reading a piece about Abramovich and the spending of half a billion (at the time). The point was made that Roman was well known in Russian oil circles only before he bought Chelsea. After lots of spending and plenty of success he is a globally known figure and that his half a billion spend has proved exceptional value for money, gaining him recognition that would be difficult to buy elsewhere even throwing around that sort of cash. Adug group have very similar aspirations with City, gaining global publicity on the back of sporting excellence. In a round about way it is almost a sponsorship deal. It makes some sense in the Sheikh's grand plan, he clearly feels it is worth the money that is being pumped in. But this is a very difficult benefit to quantify, but possibly a case could be made.
Finally back to the Roman article, it reckoned that the money invested in Chelsea had produced returns many times over for Abramovich. It's a tough one I know.
When all's said and done we can see that FFP is a self preserving mechanism and is therefore wrong. Even if in the long term we stand to benefit.

John I would also suggest that FFP doesn't really exist until that first club is sanctioned. Until we see what form that takes, it is still all piss and wind

[Beeks]

Whilst I agree FFP might spoil our party there is also the flip side

Just suppose the sheikh pulled out tomorrow?

We would literally be fucked

I'd love us to be able to be a self sustained business..and these rules will..somewhat inadvertently..bring this about

[AG7]

Having read all sides make strong arguments in each direction I have to agree with both, issue is both sets of opinions stand and depends on how you want to look at it ... who will win in the end in this is the side who is more motivated to ... if UEFA (and powers behind) just doesn't want City in, there are ways to make that happen but if City's hierarchy sitting in Abu Dhabi wants to get through this, they will ... by hook or by crook ... knowing how they operate I for one am very comfortable that we'll meet whatever crap UEFA or FA throws at us ...

Here's a few crooked ways to get past these bureaucrats sitting there making rules ... who's to stop if City refurbishes 10 executive boxes to some royal standard and sheikh's 10 friends buy them for 10 years at £20m or hell even £50m a piece? Who's to stop should the sheikh's brother wants to buy 4 million shirts and gift to the UAE population, do the math ... yes it won't be as obvious as these two but remember Etihad deal ... They can't do jack shit about it and with Soriano in charge now, expect some more deals (genuine as well as fed by the sheikh) to come through to get us nicely in line here ...

City has arrived and is here to stay ... No UEFA or FA old fart is going to stop this club from ruling over England and Europe for the next decade at least!

PS. Btw, if all goes to dogs, the sheikh could spin off his own World Super League and offer these teams some £££s that'll dwarf whatever on offer currently and you'll see all of them rushing to join that ... not just teams but sponsors, tv networks and what have you ... money talks and unfortunately for them, the rags are caught at the wrong end this time!

[DoomMerchant]

If it was introduced now then we would be forever in their shadow. Luckily, we have people who know about this shit and it will take them years before the reporting periods are in place.

It's the whole concept I begrudge mate, not allowing another team to live the dream, cementing the current hierachy in place.

Definately an American led strategy, all about the Wonga, never about the sport.

Why do you think it's American led?

That's horseshit.

Let me see. Two of the biggest clubs, globally supported, telling everyone else how it is. Who gains from such a proposal?

Horseshit you say? Who are these people you say? Well, it's not you or me sunshine, it's someone quite close without your morals.

So it's the Glazers and John Henry that started this fiasco?

Look, one thing i will tell you is that the NFL has fantastic parity due to the way they manage their costs, and if someone implemented a system like that in England then, yes, Everton or Villa could win the league again. However, that's not what this FFP bullshit is, and i think if it were truly an "American" led effort you'd see something more akin to what we're doing in the NFL or NBA.

The current FFP stuff, from my opinion, is a mess, and yes it's driven by the rich's desire to stay the richest, but the American owners of a couple English football clubs are not the originators of this "horseshit" imho.

Gill and the Scouse filth, and by your extension their deviously genius owners, may glom on now and make it seem like they invented the idea, but didn't it arise from that Munchen fucktard who hates our guts?

cheers

[john68]

@Piccs,
Whether you consider the FFP all piss and wind Mate, It has already had a major effect on City.
It caused our owners to change their whole investment strategy. Considering the mega millions already invested, our owners are certainly taking it seriously.
As I have posted, I think City will be not far short of compliance and with the mitigation of financial improvement and our commitment to youth, I don't see much chance of us being banned. However, to actually reach that financial position, the existence of the FFPR caused us to curtail our spending and player investment.

[Dameerto]

Or rather it caused us to accelerate it into a shorter timespan.

[john68]

Doomie,
I think we could learn a lot from the way that most American sports are financially organised Mate. The ownership of the game, the draft systems, the spread of revenues etc. So much so that a tiny place like Green Bay can compete successfully with the big City clubs. The Septics have created a far more level financial playing field. Sadly we are encumbered with a system that is based on history and tradition. Add the greed of clubs, either in concert or individually and we have the present result.

Rich clubs getting richer at the expense of poorer clubs. Only a handful of clubs that can compete for honours at the very top and this is perpetuated season on season.

The FFPR is a mess and will only ever cement that status quo. But then it was designed to that. I would be all in favour of adopting some of the better American practises. It is our system that allows the likes of henry and the Glazers to do what they do. Blame the system...the system is British.

[Rag_hater]

@Piccs,
Whether you consider the FFP all piss and wind Mate, It has already had a major effect on City.
It caused our owners to change their whole investment strategy. Considering the mega millions already invested, our owners are certainly taking it seriously.
As I have posted, I think City will be not far short of compliance and with the mitigation of financial improvement and our commitment to youth, I don't see much chance of us being banned. However, to actually reach that financial position, the existence of the FFPR caused us to curtail our spending and player investment.

Don't think that it has had any effect on what was planned.Maybe as fans we were expecting something different but I think the Sheikh has had provisions and plans drawn up for whatever situation we find ourselves in.I'm sure we have planned for whats happened and have plans for all the possibilites that may come.It's all under controll,people should stop worrying,it's not as if the Sheikh does't know what's happening.

[Original Dub]

Don't think that it has had any effect on what was planned.Maybe as fans we were expecting something different but I think the Sheikh has had provisions and plans drawn up for whatever situation we find ourselves in.I'm sure we have planned for whats happened and have plans for all the possibilites that may come.It's all under controll,people should stop worrying,it's not as if the Sheikh does't know what's happening.

This is the one subject the two of us agree on entirely. One of the richest and most successful men on the planet will not be fucked about.

The end.

[Rag_hater]

Don't think that it has had any effect on what was planned.Maybe as fans we were expecting something different but I think the Sheikh has had provisions and plans drawn up for whatever situation we find ourselves in.I'm sure we have planned for whats happened and have plans for all the possibilites that may come.It's all under controll,people should stop worrying,it's not as if the Sheikh does't know what's happening.

This is the one subject the two of us agree on entirely. One of the richest and most successful men on the planet will not be fucked about.

The end.

And we are playing Real fucking Madrid in a couple of weeks.Who saw that coming.Bet the Sheikh did or has planned for it Group of Death my arse.Its like we paid for it.

[john68]

Rag Hater,
Please go do your research mate. Try reading through statements by the likes of Khaldoon, Cook Marwood et al on how our investment WAS changed.
If you think the FFPR is in the future, it is here now in the way it has ALREADY changed our investments over the past few seasons.

[Rag_hater]

Rag Hater,
Please go do your research mate. Try reading through statements by the likes of Khaldoon, Cook Marwood et al on how our investment WAS changed.
If you think the FFPR is in the future, it is here now in the way it has ALREADY changed our investments over the past few seasons.

I'm sure yor'e right but the point I was trying to make is that I think the Sheikh knew every situation we were gonna be confronted with.

[Beefymcfc]

So it's the Glazers and John Henry that started this fiasco?

Look, one thing i will tell you is that the NFL has fantastic parity due to the way they manage their costs, and if someone implemented a system like that in England then, yes, Everton or Villa could win the league again. However, that's not what this FFP bullshit is, and i think if it were truly an "American" led effort you'd see something more akin to what we're doing in the NFL or NBA.

The current FFP stuff, from my opinion, is a mess, and yes it's driven by the rich's desire to stay the richest, but the American owners of a couple English football clubs are not the originators of this "horseshit" imho.

Gill and the Scouse filth, and by your extension their deviously genius owners, may glom on now and make it seem like they invented the idea, but didn't it arise from that Munchen fucktard who hates our guts?

cheers

This fiasco as you call it, as been in place for many years and it's always been about the money. When we look at it in real time and if we went to a revenue based system, which main clubs would float to the top? I'll tell you, United, Liverpool and Arsenal to start with. Who are these clubs owned by? Well, you'd never have guessed it would you, Americans.

There is no way that the likes of the Glazers, JW Henry esq would want anything like the NFL, like you suggest, because one thing for sure is that they do not want parity with everybody else. These 3 clubs, at the top of the PL could probably outstrip the rest of the league single-handedly and pull in enough wonga to eclipse any amount that a club like ours could throw at it. This was probably the big draw for the American businessmen, the thought that they can make a packet and never have to relinquish the top spot.

So, when I say Amercan led it's in relation to David Gill's comments and positive backing of such plans by Arsenal and Liverpool. Surely there can't be any question of that?

"This proposal has come from Manchester United," Whelan said.

"I think [Manchester] City haven shaken them up a little bit, but there should be some controls on spending. Some clubs are spending way more than they can afford and get into trouble - look at Portsmouth.

"The Premier League is so big and powerful and there is so much money around that the clubs try to chase it. Something has to be done so we will support these measures."

I have no problem with any owners, that's all part of the Premier League, what I do have a problem with is how this comes about at a time when the league looks to be getting real interesting. Being able to see other teams breaking through and possibly fighting the established elite is what I want to see, not some watered down but convoluted system that will see certain teams enjoy the rich trappings that they seem to believe they have a birth-right to.