Hillsborough Report

[Piccsnumberoneblue]

I find it remarkable that there aren't more comments on this thread. It is hugely important.
I also find it hard to read comments still perpetuating the myth that Liverpool fans were to blame. Ignorance in the extreme.
Some things to think on.
The Leppings Lane end still had the same capacity of 10,100 that it had before the end was divided into pens.
The 10,100 fans with tickets on the terrace were to be serviced by just SEVEN turnstiles. That's over fourteen hundred at each one. Other fans included for seated areas, there were just 23 turnstiles for24,256 at that end of the ground. How were that many people ever meant to get in.
The safety certificate had never been renewed despite many alterations to the ground, including an enlarged Kop End, the division of Leppings Lane into pens, and the removal of crush barriers. There is a whole list of deficiencies in safety at Hillsborough at the time, and Sheffield Wednesday bloody knew it.
The copper in charge was in charge of his first game and it had been many years since he had been involved in policing any game at Hillsborough.
I had a gut feeling at the time there was something massively wrong. It was not uncommon for there to be crushes outside grounds, but no matter how bad it was the police would never have opened a gate and allowed everybody in unchecked, I knew it must have been beyond serious outside that end.
The fact that the police lied doesn't surprise me in the slightest, they are corrupt, I rarely believe anything they say as they are less trustworthy than the criminals they are trying to lock up. They behaved in the most disgraceful that day. Behaviour lower than the gutter.

There are so many shocking factors about that day, so people still blaming Liverpool fans should take a moment. It could so easily have been us that day. And as fans, we would have behaved in much the same way.

[Ted Hughes]

My threepenneth. In those days fans were penned into grounds by a fence. It was the result of worsening crowd behaviour with hooliganism the norm. Look at Heysel, but ask any City fan about the travelling support at the time and they will tell you there was a large body of fecking animals.The scousers, the leading club at the time were the worst but Leeds and Rags were up there and every club had a body of this support.That's not to say decent people didn't travel to games, ofcourse they did, but in my experience the norms were set by the lunatics. Combine this with the typical matchday experience. The stadiums were antequated, exit points, accomodation and services were from the black hole of calcutta school of thought.Then consider the police. They were still very much into giving people a hiding(think Smoggyland 08) , they had done Thatchers bidding in the miners strike, been well paid for it, and were supremely self confident, but as we have seen on many occasions, basically corrupt.Throw these ingredients together, get an unlucky combination, and you get Hillsborough. But it could have happened anywhere.

This is the truth of the matter.

There were still a majority of decent people who just wanted to watch football, but there was a vicious, selfish, minority who saw football as an excuse to behave like animals.

Tbf to the police, there were occasions at away matches where I would say that, out of for example 5,000 City fans, more than half, possibly 70% were drunken, violent, scum & made the lives of the police & the general public a misery. It was usually a much smaller percentage than that, but I have been in crowds where it seemed like almost everyone was a nasty, agressive, pissed up headcase, abusing the police & any bystanders, oppo players, stewards, etc at every turn. BUT, if it kicks off with another opposing gang of headcases, you find yourself fighting on the side of the City headcases, & if you've had a drink, then you too are now a nasty, pissed up, violent headcase.

Liverpool were by a distance the worst, most inhuman, cowardly, nasty, scum I ever encountered & there is no doubt in my mind, whatever this report says, that a percentage of people in that crowd would have come into that catagory, just as they did at the final only a few years ago when some robbed their own fans for tickets. It still shouldn't result in aload of innoccent fans being dead though, it should be taken into account & dealt with calmly & efficiently, but in those days, the police & Thatcher & the press treated everyone as scum.

And there's the problem. It's the guys & girls & kids who get their tickets robbed, who innoccently came to watch a game of football, who the police & authorities have a DUTY TO PROTECT, who end up dead because all the authorities were interested in is herding people in & out like cattle & using their sticks like cattle prods against anyone who steps out of line, even to ask a question; you could get a smack off a copper in those days for asking directions, or telling one that you were being herded to the train station when you needed to go to the car park.

A percentage of fans behaved very badly at football matches in those days, but the authorities, led by the fucking bitch Thatcher, created the circumstances where sooner or later, this was going to happen, & chances are if it had happened in Manchester, Birmingham, London, the same cover up would occur because they covered up stuff at every ground every week.

Some of those people have blood on their hands, right up to the top, & now we have that evidence, they need exposing & the whole world needs to know their part in this disgrace.

[Way to Blue]

An appalling tragedy in every sense of the word and those responsible for the cover up need to face the courts.

Soemthing is nagging me - In all the coverage yesterday nowhere did I see answered the following question: What was the situation going on outside the ground that led to the police taking the decision to open the gate?

Can anyone enlighten me because all discussions yesterday related to what happened after the gate was opened rather than the events leading up to this which triggered the hideous chain of events.

[ruralblue]

This is the truth of the matter.

There were still a majority of decent people who just wanted to watch football, but there was a vicious, selfish, minority who saw football as an excuse to behave like animals.

Tbf to the police, there were occasions at away matches where I would say that, out of for example 5,000 City fans, more than half, possibly 70% were drunken, violent, scum & made the lives of the police & the general public a misery. It was usually a much smaller percentage than that, but I have been in crowds where it seemed like almost everyone was a nasty, agressive, pissed up headcase, abusing the police & any bystanders, oppo players, stewards, etc at every turn. BUT, if it kicks off with another opposing gang of headcases, you find yourself fighting on the side of the City headcases, & if you've had a drink, then you too are now a nasty, pissed up, violent headcase.

Liverpool were by a distance the worst, most inhuman, cowardly, nasty, scum I ever encountered & there is no doubt in my mind, whatever this report says, that a percentage of people in that crowd would have come into that catagory, just as they did at the final only a few years ago when some robbed their own fans for tickets. It still shouldn't result in aload of innoccent fans being dead though, it should be taken into account & dealt with calmly & efficiently, but in those days, the police & Thatcher & the press treated everyone as scum.

And there's the problem. It's the guys & girls & kids who get their tickets robbed, who innoccently came to watch a game of football, who the police & authorities have a DUTY TO PROTECT, who end up dead because all the authorities were interested in is herding people in & out like cattle & using their sticks like cattle prods against anyone who steps out of line, even to ask a question; you could get a smack off a copper in those days for asking directions, or telling one that you were being herded to the train station when you needed to go to the car park.

A percentage of fans behaved very badly at football matches in those days, but the authorities, led by the fucking bitch Thatcher, created the circumstances where sooner or later, this was going to happen, & chances are if it had happened in Manchester, Birmingham, London, the same cover up would occur because they covered up stuff at every ground every week.

Some of those people have blood on their hands, right up to the top, & now we have that evidence, they need exposing & the whole world needs to know their part in this disgrace.

very true Ted and well put. I remember as a kid going to Barney awaycwith two older lads, i was maybe twelve but I was a small kid. The chaps who took me were smart respectable lads no look of thug about them. anyway we were walking back up to the car in town when a massive gang of arseholes armed with bats and knuckle dusters chased us. In front if the view of a group of police we called for help and they just turned their backs on us and left us surrounded. My friends pleaded with the gang about me being just a kid and to let us go and finally they did give chase elsewhere. All this was allowed to happen by south yorkshire force.

Football was scary in them days and not what it is today.

[Chinners]

I think it was Barnsley about 10 years ago when the police stormed the City fans at half time for no reason at all, even hitting women and kids that got in the way. SYP are the scummiest force going in my experience

[Yffi_88]

An appalling tragedy in every sense of the word and those responsible for the cover up need to face the courts.

Soemthing is nagging me - In all the coverage yesterday nowhere did I see answered the following question: What was the situation going on outside the ground that led to the police taking the decision to open the gate?

Can anyone enlighten me because all discussions yesterday related to what happened after the gate was opened rather than the events leading up to this which triggered the hideous chain of events.

i'll probably be corrected somewhat here - but wasn't it because there was inadequate turnstyle capacity, the game was about to kick off and still loads of fans were stuck outside. So the police opened the gate to get more people in. Hence the big rush through?

[Nigels Tackle]

I think it was Barnsley about 10 years ago when the police stormed the City fans at half time for no reason at all, even hitting women and kids that got in the way. SYP are the scummiest force going in my experience

sheff u - walkway at the away end....

[Chinners]

Ah cheers, I knew it was round that way, all those games seemed the same 10-12 years ago

[Alex Sapphire]

An appalling tragedy in every sense of the word and those responsible for the cover up need to face the courts.

Soemthing is nagging me - In all the coverage yesterday nowhere did I see answered the following question: What was the situation going on outside the ground that led to the police taking the decision to open the gate?

Can anyone enlighten me because all discussions yesterday related to what happened after the gate was opened rather than the events leading up to this which triggered the hideous chain of events.

i'll probably be corrected somewhat here - but wasn't it because there was inadequate turnstyle capacity, the game was about to kick off and still loads of fans were stuck outside. So the police opened the gate to get more people in. Hence the big rush through?

one piece of evidence...

t here is evidence forthcoming
to suggest that portable barriers were positioned between turnstiles
10 a n d 11, extending back to wards the perimeter gates.This only
c ame tc light following liscussion with some of the officers
concerned on Monday and particularly Sergeant Morgan and Inspector
E l l i s , who made mention of the fact that they recall these barriers
being in position. This is despite the fact that their previous
statements had made no reference
We have searched the photograph albums and in Album DB20 photograph
7 ( the photographs in t his album being primarily taken to show the
extent of the discarded alcohol containers ) shows t h e f e e t of
portable metal barriers, which would tend to support the claim that
they were in the position described .
We have approached Inspector Sykes (officer in charge of this sector)
and he has no knowledge of these barriers j I am in the process of
having other officers from serials 17 and 13 seen , in an attempt to
clarify this situation.
I am advised by M r Mole and M r. Beal that the police would certainly
not have positioned those barriers , but if they were in position it
would give an indication that attempts were made to channel fans
towards particular sets of turnstiles ,

[Yffi_88]

That's some phenomenally strange editing mate.

[Dameerto]

An appalling tragedy in every sense of the word and those responsible for the cover up need to face the courts.

Soemthing is nagging me - In all the coverage yesterday nowhere did I see answered the following question: What was the situation going on outside the ground that led to the police taking the decision to open the gate?

Can anyone enlighten me because all discussions yesterday related to what happened after the gate was opened rather than the events leading up to this which triggered the hideous chain of events.

There was a documentary on the night before which showed video footage as well as multiple firsthand accounts - the crowd started building at the (inadequately numbered) turnstiles from around 2.30pm if not earlier, a crush started which resulted in people having to try climbing the wall to get out of it, as the crush grew (made worse by fans having to arrive over a narrow road bridge) the decision was made by Duckenfield (Chief Superintendant on the day) to open the side gate (he would later brief press that the fans had forced the gate - and some days later the head of South Yorkshire police would admit it was a police decision to open it) - the two centre pens were already full before kickoff according to junior officers on duty inside, but there were no officers stationed by the tunnel which lead to the two centre pens once the gate opened, and no visible markings anywhere on the wall in front of the rushing crowd to direct them to the outer pens. All they could do was head (or be dragged along) to the tunnel and be forced into the central pens with fatal results.

[Dameerto]

how come this kind of thing never happened at hillsbrough the thousands of times football matches were played there before this incident?

There were injuries from crushing in the 1981 semi final between Wolves and Spurs. That could have been us very easily that day.

There's also documentary evidence of a crush at the Leppings Lane terraces the year before the tragedy (in 1988) which was sent to the FA and to the minster for sport.

[ronk]

An appalling tragedy in every sense of the word and those responsible for the cover up need to face the courts.

Soemthing is nagging me - In all the coverage yesterday nowhere did I see answered the following question: What was the situation going on outside the ground that led to the police taking the decision to open the gate?

Can anyone enlighten me because all discussions yesterday related to what happened after the gate was opened rather than the events leading up to this which triggered the hideous chain of events.

i'll probably be corrected somewhat here - but wasn't it because there was inadequate turnstyle capacity, the game was about to kick off and still loads of fans were stuck outside. So the police opened the gate to get more people in. Hence the big rush through?

It's the fault of the systems in place that officers on the ground were put in that position and that their decisions in response to the myriad problems exacerbated the situation.

There were too many things that could easily go wrong with crowd management to quickly cause disaster. There had been near misses and tragedies before, but it actually took catastrophe to force all the different parties into action rather than trying to shift responsibility.

There was a chain of problems that led to the situation, it's easy to point at any link in the chain as a point where disaster could have been averted or mitigated, but to do so is to miss the point. After Hillsborough, every link in the chain was reconsidered and nothing was allowed to interfere with that. The first rule in stadium safety after Hillsborough was that there would be no compromises; commercial decisions and practicalities were irrelevant. Stadiums were all-seater, or closed. Ticketing systems were changed, turnstyles had to be adequate, banning orders were enforced, there was proper planning of crowd management and training, fan behaviour changed, clubs punished for pitch invasions, crush barriers removed, ticket checks in place to prevent fans without tickets getting to the turnstyles, safety licensing enforced, capacity regulations became absolute. The nod and wink jokes about getting extra people in at big matches and just packing them in were serious matters.

[Ted Hughes]

An appalling tragedy in every sense of the word and those responsible for the cover up need to face the courts.

Soemthing is nagging me - In all the coverage yesterday nowhere did I see answered the following question: What was the situation going on outside the ground that led to the police taking the decision to open the gate?

Can anyone enlighten me because all discussions yesterday related to what happened after the gate was opened rather than the events leading up to this which triggered the hideous chain of events.

There was a documentary on the night before which showed video footage as well as multiple firsthand accounts - the crowd started building at the (inadequately numbered) turnstiles from around 2.30pm if not earlier, a crush started which resulted in people having to try climbing the wall to get out of it, as the crush grew (made worse by fans having to arrive over a narrow road bridge) the decision was made by Duckenfield (Chief Superintendant on the day) to open the side gate (he would later brief press that the fans had forced the gate - and some days later the head of West Yorkshire police would admit it was a police decision to open it) - the two centre pens were already full before kickoff according to junior officers on duty inside, but there were no officers stationed by the tunnel which lead to the two centre pens once the gate opened, and no visible markings anywhere on the wall in front of the rushing crowd to direct them to the outer pens. All they could do was head (or be dragged along) to the tunnel and be forced into the central pens with fatal results.

I once arrived late there after it had been converted to all seating & you naturally head for the shortest route to the pitch when you hear the crowd noise; which is straight down that tunnel. If the police had been giving a shit about crowd safety, rather than just looking for trouble, they would have blocked it & sent them round the sides.

[Hazy2]

I went there back in the 80's Finglands coach, Night game League cup, Parked at the Speedway stadium I think ? Made our way to the ground, got in UNSCATHED. And they seemed to work you to the left into a corner section We were packed in like sardines COME kICK OFF. Fighting on terraces was normal and this night it was no different, Getting out was dreadful, fans falling over bearing in mind it was pitch dark, fans trampling over the top of them, the Police with dogs, just abusing the away fans whilst The Shef Wed fans ran at the masses leaving the ground and taking swings and boots at us, Police were heavy handed to us, I cannot say how they were with them but it was a mental night during what was school holidays. My uncle had me and my cousin by the arms, dragged us away to the coach whilst it seemed like a riot was going on all around us. What has happened to the 96 it is a national disgrace but not a great surprise as away fans were treated like shit, at most grounds by local Police.

[Slim]

An appalling tragedy in every sense of the word and those responsible for the cover up need to face the courts.

Soemthing is nagging me - In all the coverage yesterday nowhere did I see answered the following question: What was the situation going on outside the ground that led to the police taking the decision to open the gate?

Can anyone enlighten me because all discussions yesterday related to what happened after the gate was opened rather than the events leading up to this which triggered the hideous chain of events.

There was a documentary on the night before which showed video footage as well as multiple firsthand accounts - the crowd started building at the (inadequately numbered) turnstiles from around 2.30pm if not earlier, a crush started which resulted in people having to try climbing the wall to get out of it, as the crush grew (made worse by fans having to arrive over a narrow road bridge) the decision was made by Duckenfield (Chief Superintendant on the day) to open the side gate (he would later brief press that the fans had forced the gate - and some days later the head of West Yorkshire police would admit it was a police decision to open it) - the two centre pens were already full before kickoff according to junior officers on duty inside, but there were no officers stationed by the tunnel which lead to the two centre pens once the gate opened, and no visible markings anywhere on the wall in front of the rushing crowd to direct them to the outer pens. All they could do was head (or be dragged along) to the tunnel and be forced into the central pens with fatal results.

I once arrived late there after it had been converted to all seating & you naturally head for the shortest route to the pitch when you hear the crowd noise; which is straight down that tunnel. If the police had been giving a shit about crowd safety, rather than just looking for trouble, they would have blocked it & sent them round the sides.

I think this really stemmed from a lack of communication from the police control box and the officers outside the stands. Those outside might not have known how crowded it was and those inside had the closed circuit feeds and should have told them to move the crowd up the stairs rather than the tunnel.

[Piccsnumberoneblue]

An appalling tragedy in every sense of the word and those responsible for the cover up need to face the courts.

Soemthing is nagging me - In all the coverage yesterday nowhere did I see answered the following question: What was the situation going on outside the ground that led to the police taking the decision to open the gate?

Can anyone enlighten me because all discussions yesterday related to what happened after the gate was opened rather than the events leading up to this which triggered the hideous chain of events.

There was a documentary on the night before which showed video footage as well as multiple firsthand accounts - the crowd started building at the (inadequately numbered) turnstiles from around 2.30pm if not earlier, a crush started which resulted in people having to try climbing the wall to get out of it, as the crush grew (made worse by fans having to arrive over a narrow road bridge) the decision was made by Duckenfield (Chief Superintendant on the day) to open the side gate (he would later brief press that the fans had forced the gate - and some days later the head of West Yorkshire police would admit it was a police decision to open it) - the two centre pens were already full before kickoff according to junior officers on duty inside, but there were no officers stationed by the tunnel which lead to the two centre pens once the gate opened, and no visible markings anywhere on the wall in front of the rushing crowd to direct them to the outer pens. All they could do was head (or be dragged along) to the tunnel and be forced into the central pens with fatal results.

I once arrived late there after it had been converted to all seating & you naturally head for the shortest route to the pitch when you hear the crowd noise; which is straight down that tunnel. If the police had been giving a shit about crowd safety, rather than just looking for trouble, they would have blocked it & sent them round the sides.

The police instead positioned themselves at the sides to prevent fans 'gibbing in' the seated sections. They left the central pens unguarded and fans naturally went that way particularly as the tickets seemed to suggest that tunnel was the correct one.

[getdressedmctavish]

The police cover up is inexcusable. Heads will roll. But what we have to realise is that this was Britain in 1989.Its all inter related. Why did we have a cunt like Thatcher as Prime minister. Because of the ludicrous behaviour of the Trades Unions for the previous twenty years.Why were the police corrupt. Well I work in the law and solicitors and barristers are still the feckin biggest bunch of hypocritical lyers I have ever come across.Why were Scouse football fans pissed? They were'nt. OK

[Evenmydoghatesunited]

The police cover up is inexcusable. Heads will roll. But what we have to realise is that this was Britain in 1989.Its all inter related. Why did we have a cunt like Thatcher as Prime minister. Because of the ludicrous behaviour of the Trades Unions for the previous twenty years.Why were the police corrupt. Well I work in the law and solicitors and barristers are still the feckin biggest bunch of hypocritical lyers I have ever come across.Why were Scouse football fans pissed? They were'nt. OK

So they weren't pissed? Why not? Have you ever been to a match?

[ronk]

So they weren't pissed? Why not? Have you ever been to a match?

There are stages off pissed, as you well know. Fatal crowd crushes happen to entirely sober groups too. Alcohol wasn't the problem and it's not the solution.