Pelligini's Targets

[kinkylola]

Am I the only one who is quite excited to see what Pellegrini can do with this side?

I sincerely want to be mate and if it was a simple straight manager for manager swap, I would be more hopeful.

I have this nagging doubt that whoever we get, no matter how able or talented, will be forced to work within parameters set for him by his masters. It seems already decided that the "Holistic City Way" will be 4:3:3, from U9s to the 1st team. If that is the case, I wonder just how much room any new manager will have to impose his own thinking on tactics etc.

I'd be interested to read your thoughts.

I think Sorry answered that question in his interview, which I think Ted has posted up several times. If i recall correctly, he stated that there will definitely be a way that we play as a club, from youth to the top. And that the objective in signing players will be to get skilled people who can operate in the positions commonly used in that system. From there, the coach/manager decides how the team achieves objectives and how things go down on the pitch. He referenced how it was done at Barca through Pep. Did he mention the 433 specifically? I can't remember correctly.

In my opinion, if we are going to have a stable system from top to bottom, how could it be different? We'd be changing systems with every coach, every 3-5 years on average ... no matter if the youth team keeps the same system, they'd graduate to the main team and have to learn something new.

[john68]

Kinky,
Without wishing to be rude, my post, though public, was specifically aimed at Slim and his view on my specific point. I actually value his opinion and was asking for his wisdom on this.

To address your point though, I have no problem with (and have already stated so previously) an holistic model of football throughout the club. I am (and have already clearly stated previously) in favour of stability within the club, whether that be via a long term manager or a DS.

But we must surely understand that football is a fluid game and continuously evolving tactically. With so many great football thinkers throughout the World, it is in a constant state of flux. What was fashionable and successful only a few years ago, is now considered "old hat" and is no longer considered cutting edge or as successful. 4.3.3. was reported as the way forward for the Holistic City Way.

As I have previously posted, the devil is not in the overall system and the stability of that system, but in the detail. If we adhere to a strategy and do so strictly, could (please note the word could) that not hinder us evolving or tactically progressing forward.
The other point I am examining (please note the word examining) is the possibility of having a coach of greater tactical ability and knowledge who becomes hampered by parameters set by a DS of lesser tactical knowledge and ability.

TBH, I wasn't that impressed by the Soriano statement, I found it very Churchillian in content. Very much "We shall fight on the beaches" motivational stuff but without addressing how. A great statement, for what it was trying to do and for the audience he was addressing.

[Ted Hughes]

Am I the only one who is quite excited to see what Pellegrini can do with this side?

I sincerely want to be mate and if it was a simple straight manager for manager swap, I would be more hopeful.

I have this nagging doubt that whoever we get, no matter how able or talented, will be forced to work within parameters set for him by his masters. It seems already decided that the "Holistic City Way" will be 4:3:3, from U9s to the 1st team. If that is the case, I wonder just how much room any new manager will have to impose his own thinking on tactics etc.

I'd be interested to read your thoughts.

I think Sorry answered that question in his interview, which I think Ted has posted up several times. If i recall correctly, he stated that there will definitely be a way that we play as a club, from youth to the top. And that the objective in signing players will be to get skilled people who can operate in the positions commonly used in that system. From there, the coach/manager decides how the team achieves objectives and how things go down on the pitch. He referenced how it was done at Barca through Pep. Did he mention the 433 specifically? I can't remember correctly.

In my opinion, if we are going to have a stable system from top to bottom, how could it be different? We'd be changing systems with every coach, every 3-5 years on average ... no matter if the youth team keeps the same system, they'd graduate to the main team and have to learn something new.

The offical line on the 4-3-3 or formation business is 1) City are already & were already doing what Txiki wants at junior level before Txiki arrived ie; having the teams play in a similar way (clueless idiot Marwood). 2) The playing style for the club will be developed WITH THE NEW MANAGER & extended upto but not neccessarily including the first team (the manager can choose to change formation/tactics etc as he sees fit).

The hope is that players will be better prepared to slot into the manager's systems when they reach 1st team level if they have been schooled in the right style throughout their careers, so it won't actually matter what formation the 1st team plays, they will be comfortable on the ball.

Of course, with Txiki, Pellegrini etc developing it, the style will be possession based pass & move football.

I hope this clears it up.

Just to repeat: Pellegrini will be involved in this plan. (I'm pretty sure Mancini would have been if they had thought he was interested).

[john68]

Ted,

Have I ever told you that I love you...:-)
At last someone specifically addresses a specific issue.
THANK YOU.

Next question. If Pellegrini is as tactically clever and able as is being reported, why the fuck does he need any fucking input from Tricky?

[Ted Hughes]

Ted,

Have I ever told you that I love you...:-)
At last someone specifically addresses a specific issue.
THANK YOU.

Next question. If Pellegrini is as tactically clever and able as is being reported, why the fuck does he need any fucking input from Tricky?

I'd check the picture I've just posted on the other thread ;)

Ans, because Txiki is tactically clever & able & has to implement it & sign kids from all around the world to play in it.

[kinkylola]

Kinky,
Without wishing to be rude, my post, though public, was specifically aimed at Slim and his view on my specific point. I actually value his opinion and was asking for his wisdom on this.

To address your point though, I have no problem with (and have already stated so previously) an holistic model of football throughout the club. I am (and have already clearly stated previously) in favour of stability within the club, whether that be via a long term manager or a DS.

But we must surely understand that football is a fluid game and continuously evolving tactically. With so many great football thinkers throughout the World, it is in a constant state of flux. What was fashionable and successful only a few years ago, is now considered "old hat" and is no longer considered cutting edge or as successful. 4.3.3. was reported as the way forward for the Holistic City Way.

As I have previously posted, the devil is not in the overall system and the stability of that system, but in the detail. If we adhere to a strategy and do so strictly, could (please note the word could) that not hinder us evolving or tactically progressing forward.
The other point I am examining (please note the word examining) is the possibility of having a coach of greater tactical ability and knowledge who becomes hampered by parameters set by a DS of lesser tactical knowledge and ability.

TBH, I wasn't that impressed by the Soriano statement, I found it very Churchillian in content. Very much "We shall fight on the beaches" motivational stuff but without addressing how. A great statement, for what it was trying to do and for the audience he was addressing.

John, mate, that's fine ... as it was posted to the public board however, i'll post as I please. If you don't value my opinion, don't feel the need to respond, that leaves it simple.

Never said you did have a problem with the 'holistic' way, either. I see that you're worried about tactical progression though, and fair enough, but I don't think "the system" would hinder that. This is a bit from the interview that Ted posted:

In their statement that announced Mancini's departure, City referred to the need to develop a "holistic approach" to all aspects of football at the club.

It had previously been rumoured City wanted to introduce a fluid 4-3-3 style of play to all their sides, from junior level up to first team.

When asked about that matter, Soriano said: "We are looking to play very good football, very beautiful football. When we are playing good football, then we will win.

"So it is not only about winning, it is developing football that is attractive and it will be played by our main teams, our first team in Manchester, our young teams in Manchester and also our teams in New York.

From the text, it's not outlandish to presume that Soriano was asked if he would be implementing a 433 all the way down. The fact that he did not say yes, to me, means that there is room for fluidity and adaptation. I also believe that, whatever you want to say the system is, 443, 451, 4411, etc ... it isn't really about the name ascribed to a formation, but how each player is utilized in his role in team, something I think would afford any great tactical mind plenty of freedom to adapt.

[john68]

Ted,

Have I ever told you that I love you...:-)
At last someone specifically addresses a specific issue.
THANK YOU.

Next question. If Pellegrini is as tactically clever and able as is being reported, why the fuck does he need any fucking input from Tricky?

I'd check the picture I've just posted on the other thread ;)

Ans, because Txiki is tactically clever & able & has to implement it & sign kids from all around the world to play in it.

I did.....:-)
...and you believe that Tricky is those things, even if he has to do the latter.

[Ted Hughes]

I think the interesting thing about this is that it is a kind of historical moment for City.

This is the start of something big for the club, bigger than a title or an FA Cup, because it represents the whole future. Without this, & the commercial stuff happening, we stop.

Sheikh Mansour did not buy City as a charity. He does not want to put £100 million quid into City every year, even if it is only pocket money, he wants the club to become a self sustaining operation; he has always said this. Khaldoon has always said this.

It's quite an honour imo, for Pellegrini to be chosen to head this up & I think his appointment is as much or more to do with that than the first team job. He has been trusted to lay the foundations. Once it's done, he becomes 1st team manager & stands or falls by that.

If he fails with the 1st team though, he may still have actually done the job he was brought in to do.

[Ted Hughes]

Ted,

Have I ever told you that I love you...:-)
At last someone specifically addresses a specific issue.
THANK YOU.

Next question. If Pellegrini is as tactically clever and able as is being reported, why the fuck does he need any fucking input from Tricky?

I'd check the picture I've just posted on the other thread ;)

Ans, because Txiki is tactically clever & able & has to implement it & sign kids from all around the world to play in it.

I did.....:-)
...and you believe that Tricky is those things, even if he has to do the latter.

So far as the academy side of things goes, yes.

I don't believe anybody is 100% brilliant when it comes to 1st team matters, not Ferguson, Mourinho, Mancini, Txiki they all do, & will, drop bollocks, but I think he knows his stuff in this area better than most, & as I mention in my post above, I think he rates Pellegrini's knowledge as something important to use in this area.

[Im_Spartacus]

I think the issue of 433 is being looked at in a very uncreative manner by some of the sharper posters on the site.

Why they are choosing to do this, I'm not sure.

The reality is that the in have been positioning themselves for some time into having the same general approach to football throughout the club. This is something Mancini was (to a greater or lesser extent) part of, so what we are seeing now is really evolution rather than the revolution some are trying to make out.

The flexibility and variations of a 433 style formation is good for all situations, but as a club, by setting this overarching principle, it stops the owners having to bankroll different 'types' of players every time the coach is replaced, whether that be every year or every 5 years.

With a stable principle as to the basic shape of the team, the club's management can plan how many of which type of player is needed to fit the various options within 433.

For example, Mourinho at Chelsea had this formation down to a tee, whereby they were a standard 433 when attacking, but they looked for wide players with good energy and a willingness to track back, to allow that same set of 11 players to retreat into 451 when under pressure.

By having a club philosophy, the management can for example ensure that we always have two or 3 such players as a minimum on the squad, so the squad has the flexibility to adapt should the coach prefer a defensive or attacking mentality for a particular game, or even if we have to bring a new coach in.

We then don't end up with a huge turnover of players every time we change coach or every time the coach decides they need an attacking winger one season, then a defensive winger te next.

To me this approach is as much to do with effective financial management, as it is just to common sense - a commodity lacking in most football boardrooms

[Mikhail Chigorin]

Am I the only one who is quite excited to see what Pellegrini can do with this side?

When his name was first mentioned I have to be honest, I knew nothing about him, except he was some bloke managing Malaga. But the stuff I've read over the last fortnight about him, from his former players, current players, other managers in the game and respected journalists like Ballague, I have to say I'm really looking forward to seeing what he can do with the squad we have, plus any new additions. Especially if the plan is to play attacking football too.

I didn't want Mancini sacked, especially not in the way he was, but I'm already looking forward to what the new season will bring.

Hi Craig,

I think you've encapsulated my own thoughts and feelings perfectly, with this post.

From a position of knowing absolutely nothing about Pellegrini to now knowing very little about him still, I find myself perversely warming to the guy and looking forward to what he will make of our squad. It's absolutely weird and there's still the nagging prospect that he may not come to City at all.

However, from the snippets of information that seem to have filtered down about him, by all accounts, he would seem to favour playing with two midfielders who sit in that position to leave a floating four in front of them who are, to some extent, freed from out and out defensive duties (I wonder if this will translate itself into a "revolutionary" 4-2-4 formation ??!!).

With that in mind, the floating four could be drawn from (as it stands at present) Dzeko, Tevez, Aguero, Nasri, Silva and Yaya.

Candidates for the two sitting midfield positions could be Milner, Garcia, Rodwell (if he remains injury free) plus any youngsters who might step up to the plate.

On that basis, Pellegrini might reason that we are well equipped with attackers but we are somewhat short of quality and cover for the midfield options and, therefore, signing Cavani or any of the other big names we have been linked with might just be somewhat unrealistic. If we do try to recruit any other quality players, it could be midfielders and defenders we bring in.

Such an approach might have FFP benefits in that our summer outlay would be less than astronomical and we were in a better position to continue the trend of balancing our books.

However, until Pellegrini is officially announced as "ours", all this could be just pie in the sky.

[dazby]

I don't get how a modern player can't be coached/trained/be adaptable to every formation possible. As a 17 year old a footballing education should be to understand and then play the roles in all formations. That and being ambidextrous. Surely.

[Beefymcfc]

I don't get how a modern player can't be coached/trained/be adaptable to every formation possible. As a 17 year old a footballing education should be to understand and then play the roles in all formations. That and being ambidextrous. Surely.

This should be the norm mate but as we've seen with the 3-5-2 some players are unable or even unwilling to adapt. I played football for many years and must've played every position dependant on the situation/tactical formation/player availability. I had no problems and always gave 100%, afterall, football is football, wherever you play on the pitch.

[Mikhail Chigorin]

I don't get how a modern player can't be coached/trained/be adaptable to every formation possible. As a 17 year old a footballing education should be to understand and then play the roles in all formations. That and being ambidextrous. Surely.

This should be the norm mate but as we've seen with the 3-5-2 some players are unable or even unwilling to adapt. I played football for many years and must've played every position dependant on the situation/tactical formation/player availability. I had no problems and always gave 100%, afterall, football is football, wherever you play on the pitch.

Hi Beefy, I know exactly where you're coming from.

In my younger days when I played in one of the local Leagues where I was living, the coach who ran the team started to play a 3-3-4 system (sometimes varied to 3-4-3). I normally played in midfield but he put me in at centre back with two full-backs situated wider on either side.

That was hard going, knowing that the slightest mistake left you with no cover and looking like a veritable pilchard if a goal was scored. However, if I wanted to play in the team I had to accept it and, to manage to do so, I had to try and play out of my skin just to be selected.

I also had to change my style and, instead of trying to play in a creative way, I had to be not averse to hoofing the ball out when the occasion demanded it (uuuugghhh)......and all to try and stay in a poor side, playing in a fairly mediocre League !!

If poor players can adapt, it should be as easy as breathing to the professionals.

[Ted Hughes]

In my younger days when I played in one of the local Leagues where I was living, the coach who ran the team started to play a 3-3-4 system (sometimes varied to 3-4-3). I normally played in midfield but he put me in at centre back with two full-backs situated wider on either side.

Was it Mancini ?

[Mikhail Chigorin]

In my younger days when I played in one of the local Leagues where I was living, the coach who ran the team started to play a 3-3-4 system (sometimes varied to 3-4-3). I normally played in midfield but he put me in at centre back with two full-backs situated wider on either side.

Was it Mancini ?

Not quite; I think he was a Kevin Keegan clone......

[Slim]

Am I the only one who is quite excited to see what Pellegrini can do with this side?

I sincerely want to be mate and if it was a simple straight manager for manager swap, I would be more hopeful.

I have this nagging doubt that whoever we get, no matter how able or talented, will be forced to work within parameters set for him by his masters. It seems already decided that the "Holistic City Way" will be 4:3:3, from U9s to the 1st team. If that is the case, I wonder just how much room any new manager will have to impose his own thinking on tactics etc.

I'd be interested to read your thoughts.

Damn john, I had a reply typed out and it failed to post I guess.

I will reply again tonight when I get back from work.

[DoomMerchant]

Damn john, I had a reply typed out and it failed to post I guess.

I will reply again tonight when I get back from work.

Barely containing my anticipation. Hurry up end of australian work shift!!!

[john68]

Am I the only one who is quite excited to see what Pellegrini can do with this side?

I sincerely want to be mate and if it was a simple straight manager for manager swap, I would be more hopeful.

I have this nagging doubt that whoever we get, no matter how able or talented, will be forced to work within parameters set for him by his masters. It seems already decided that the "Holistic City Way" will be 4:3:3, from U9s to the 1st team. If that is the case, I wonder just how much room any new manager will have to impose his own thinking on tactics etc.

I'd be interested to read your thoughts.

Damn john, I had a reply typed out and it failed to post I guess.

I will reply again tonight when I get back from work.

Appreciate that Mate...You're pretty good at keeping it real.

[ant london]

This place truly is mental....every time there is a change and I think "ahhh maybe there will be some harmony amongst us" there is yet another bout of mancityfans civil war on here.

John (and others)....I totally get where you are coming from about your worries about the future as the club strives to meet the commercial aims we have and the impact that will have on the soul of the club and it's accessibility to "normal" fans.

To a degree I think it was somewhat inevitable that at some point in time these concerns would have validly raised their head BUT I think it is clear that the owners were very much trying to (for a decent period at least) do the right thing by the longstanding fans...that is until United, Arsenal, Liverpool and their mates at UEFA move the goalposts.

I agree that the owner is not a football man, nor is Khaldoon but they have done the smartest thing they could have done IMO in bringing in tricky and soriano. Whilst I do understand the rationale behind your concerns, why are you not willing to see how it goes for a while before rushing to judgments about how terrible this is for the club's future? There is fuck all any of us can do to change this so why not give it a fair crack of the whip first.

First it was ppl shouting and moaning about Hughes, then moaning about Mancini and now it's started again...before it's even started.

It's one of the most exciting periods of the club's history in my lifetime I just don't get why more dont want to enjoy the ride a little more. I've got a lot of love and respect for you John mate and I know how much you understand and care about the club....I do"get" your concerns but i would've thought that you, just as a City fan, would have wanted to enjoy the fun of it in this period?