Fernandinho

[Ted Hughes]

There are key moments in games where, even if a player is fucked & even if it's not 'his job' to make a run, or not 'his man' that needs picking up, he forces himself to give that extra yard, even if it means he'll be so fucked he has to come off, because the team needs it. I shouldn't have to tell you this, it's a fundemental fact for successful centre mid players over the history of football.

In that position you can go 'well that's not my job'. Or you can run in & save the day, then hand out bollockings to those who made the mistake. Yaya chose not to bother.

Name one world class midfielder in the history of football who would routinely save the day and "be so fucked he has to come off"...

After all if they are world class/successful, wouldn't their team rather have them on the field than fucked/knackered/broken down on the sidelines?

And in the video NDJ was by far the most at fault. Didn't follow his man after they made the pass. I don't even know if Yaya would have caught up with Cavani. Would have been better for a defender (Kompany I think) to step up or NDJ to just follow his man.

You are doing it again. You know I was just making a point of what could happen in extreme circumstances but are deliberately twisting my words to make the discussion descend into nonsense. People such as Roy Keane put that bit extra in pretty much every week. They were fucked when the game finished but they did it anyway. Occasionally, players have actually knacked themselves & even been stretchered off when performing heroics to save games.

We have just said goodbye to a player who played with a broken fucking neck. If he was a midfielder, do you think he would stand & watch Cavani run off unmarked ?

And once again YES THERE WERE MISTAKES. I'm not saying Yaya made a mistake, I'm saying he couldn't be arsed fixing the one that was glaringly obviously unfolding right in front of him.

[Ted Hughes]

He must be a twat to play with at times BTW.

Strange that none of our players or fellow professionals seems to share this view of Yaya. Everyone at City holds him in the highest respect and I've never seen the slightest peep out of anyone that they do not like playing with him. The only people who say they don;t like being on the same field as him is opposing midfielders. Quit talking shit.

When does anyone from within football say anything bad about anyone, Answer never. It's a tough one is the stock answer to anything close to he is a lazy twat at times. Like many others he has bad games, CC AWAY BEING ONE OF THEM get over it.

The fact that you call Yaya a lazy twat makes you completely ungrateful about our current situation and the quality of players that we are able to have.

This is the man who scored vs the rags in the semi and the winning goal in the FA cup. The first name on the team sheet in our title winning season. A truly world class individual plying at Manchester City.

I would have previously thought that a City fan calling Yaya a lazy twat would be unthinkable. Unless you are saying that in jest, you're a fucking joke of a supporter.

Rodney Marsh was just about my favourite City player ever, & he was a lazy twat.

[Ted Hughes]

Kinkladze was one of the best I've ever seen, & he was a right lazy twat.

[Bridge'srightfoot]

He must be a twat to play with at times BTW.

Strange that none of our players or fellow professionals seems to share this view of Yaya. Everyone at City holds him in the highest respect and I've never seen the slightest peep out of anyone that they do not like playing with him. The only people who say they don;t like being on the same field as him is opposing midfielders. Quit talking shit.

When does anyone from within football say anything bad about anyone, Answer never. It's a tough one is the stock answer to anything close to he is a lazy twat at times. Like many others he has bad games, CC AWAY BEING ONE OF THEM get over it.

The fact that you call Yaya a lazy twat makes you completely ungrateful about our current situation and the quality of players that we are able to have.

This is the man who scored vs the rags in the semi and the winning goal in the FA cup. The first name on the team sheet in our title winning season. A truly world class individual plying at Manchester City.

I would have previously thought that a City fan calling Yaya a lazy twat would be unthinkable. Unless you are saying that in jest, you're a fucking joke of a supporter.

Rodney Marsh was just about my favourite City player ever, & he was a lazy twat.

The other night in the Rags v Chelsea game, Rooney tracked back to his own byline to make a tackle win the ball and set up an attack which resulted in a decent effort on goal (I think) Either way he did more than he needed to.
Just to add to your point

[bigblue]

You are doing it again. You know I was just making a point of what could happen in extreme circumstances but [highlight]are deliberately twisting my words to make the discussion descend into nonsense[/highlight]. People such as Roy Keane put that bit extra in pretty much every week. They were fucked when the game finished but they did it anyway. Occasionally, players have actually knacked themselves & even been stretchered off when performing heroics to save games.

We have just said goodbye to a player who played with a broken fucking neck. If he was a midfielder, do you think he would stand & watch Cavani run off unmarked ?

And once again YES THERE WERE MISTAKES. I'm not saying Yaya made a mistake, I'm saying he couldn't be arsed fixing the one that was glaringly obviously unfolding right in front of him.

You really can't help it can you???? Disagree with Ted = turning the thread to nonsense. You're like a broken record.

Have you seen any post-match interviews with Yaya? He is, just like most players, exhausted after the game and still heavily breathing/sweating even 10-15 minutes after the game has ended.

Keane also had 1/10th the skill as Yaya and wasn't expected to do nearly as much on the ball. you are comparing Yaya to the typical defensive mid/destroyer role, which he is NOT. As I said before, if you make that comparison, you will be blaming Yaya for things that he is not responsible for.

Where is this myth that Yaya is not exhausted after the game coming from? My guess is that you make it up in order to go along with your preconceived narrative that Yaya doesn't put in enough effort.

[Ted Hughes]

That's what makes Rooney special player imo. He doesn't always do it, but he has spells where he drags the team up by its bootlaces by his example. It's more than just football ability.

Van Persie doesn't have that & neither does Aguero or Yaya. Tevez did.

[bigblue]

Rodney Marsh was just about my favourite City player ever, & he was a lazy twat.

The other night in the Rags v Chelsea game, Rooney tracked back to his own byline to make a tackle win the ball and set up an attack which resulted in a decent effort on goal (I think) Either way he did more than he needed to.
Just to add to your point

You are covering your eyes if you think Yaya NEVER tracks back or chases someone to the byline and makes a tackle.

[Niall Quinns Discopants]

The other night in the Rags v Chelsea game, Rooney tracked back to his own byline to make a tackle win the ball and set up an attack which resulted in a decent effort on goal (I think) Either way he did more than he needed to.
Just to add to your point

You giving rooney a little licking. Shocking surprise.

[Ted Hughes]

Rodney Marsh was just about my favourite City player ever, & he was a lazy twat.

The other night in the Rags v Chelsea game, Rooney tracked back to his own byline to make a tackle win the ball and set up an attack which resulted in a decent effort on goal (I think) Either way he did more than he needed to.
Just to add to your point

You are covering your eyes if you think Yaya NEVER tracks back or chases someone to the byline and makes a tackle.

It's his job. When he does it, he is unbeatable.

He does it once or twice per game.

Rooney is a striker, but he does it anyway.

[bigblue]

Kinkladze was one of the best I've ever seen, & he was a right lazy twat.

His skill was dribbling, not putting in tackles. Judge a player based on what their unique offering is to the team, not on all possible attributes of a any player on the field.

If Kinkladze was sprinting around the field all the time, when he gets the ball he wouldn't have the legs to beat 4-5 players in a row.

[bigblue]

Rodney Marsh was just about my favourite City player ever, & he was a lazy twat.

The other night in the Rags v Chelsea game, Rooney tracked back to his own byline to make a tackle win the ball and set up an attack which resulted in a decent effort on goal (I think) Either way he did more than he needed to.
Just to add to your point

You are covering your eyes if you think Yaya NEVER tracks back or chases someone to the byline and makes a tackle.

It's his job. When he does it, he is unbeatable.

He does it once or twice per game.

Rooney is a striker, but he does it anyway.

Aguero makes tackles too, but I'm not going to judge him if he doesn't. Yaya does his job, hence is inclusion in City's starting lineup almost every week. Why would our managers keep playing him of he doesn't do his job? The problem is that fail to recognize what his job actually is!

[Ted Hughes]

Kinkladze was one of the best I've ever seen, & he was a right lazy twat.

His skill was dribbling, not putting in tackles. Judge a player based on what their unique offering is to the team, not on all possible attributes of a any player on the field.

If Kinkladze was sprinting around the field all the time, when he gets the ball he wouldn't have the legs to beat 4-5 players in a row.

Your doing it again.

Nobody has asked for any player to sprint around the pitch all the time.

People are asking for a bit of extra effort at key moments, that is all. Some players are willing to do that, some are not.

Knkladze was a lazy twat.

[Beefymcfc]

I suppose this could be aimed at me a little but it's not as if I've played him down or anything, I just can't understand what people have seen so far.

I've seen him lose the ball on numerous occassions, mis-pass to the oppo and miss a number of quite easy tackles. There's nothing wrong with that this early on and most understand that but the way some have gone on to protect him is well over the top.

Bloody hell, Ted even compares last years CL stats to Yaya's to prove a point. We were shit as a collective so that's no measure whatsoever.

[bigblue]

Lets translate this to business/professional setting.

Theres a salesman Bob, who is one of the best salesmen in the country, and can sell 20 cars/week consistently. Two weeks a year Bob sells 25 cars/week!

Now, is Bob performing at 100% normally (since he is one of the best in the country) or his he only performing at 80% every week, then for some reason steps it up to 100% two weeks a year?

I would argue that Bob (and Yaya) are performing at 95-100% of their ability for most of the year. Those exceptional weeks/performances are more results of situation (for Bob it may be the holiday season or the week before business taxes are due. For Yaya it might be a big game that makes other players more nervous than him or a team that fails to lineup properly against him.)

Not really, because in business where performance counts, people very rarely work at 100% of capacity for long, and people almost never work at that level without an inspirational motivator behind them.

This is sort of the analogy I had with Mancini's motivational issues, in that a players natural performance level may be about 80% of ability. Another 10% may come from the players own 'getup and go' and the remaining 10% from the managers motivation. The manager can actually demotivate, and you may end up with some players at 70% which is what I believe we had for much of f last season.

When playing at elite levels of sport, if you are at your natural level of 80% you can probably get by if you are one of the very best and your 80% is still better than most normal players' 90%. Yaya might up his own game in the very big games to 90%, but when was the last time he played 90 minutes of truly world class performance?

The problem is that if all of your top stars are at 80% most of the time, your teams performances are gonna be very hit and miss in the context of a title fight, particularly if you are up against bacon who will get 100% out of most of the team most of the time, and therefore the count's job in my eyes is to direct the players into a unit, and motivate the players upto that sprt of level of consistency.

If he cracks that, we will do well. If he doesnt, and mourinho or moyes do, they will be successful and we will appear to underperform relative to our peers and wont really have moved on from mancini in that respect.

People in business need inspirational leaders as well, which is why sales mangers/executives get paid so well.

I'd object to the whole performance scale that you are using. I think the difference between players at the top level is marginal. A 1-2% effort drop can be the difference between winning and losing in the PL or CL. To suggest that players' performance shifts by 20% in some cases is a bit over the top. Modern sports science protects against this and weekly stats prove it (except for stats under statistical significance like goals or assists).

Professional players have become in the top .000001% of all football players on the planet by training harder, wanting o succeed more, a little luck, and physical gifts. They have basically been working at their current job since they were 9 with the dream of being a professional. You think that a manager is really going to inspire them to lift their game by 10% just by giving a talk (as if they don't want it enough already)? I think a manager can lift a team's performance by getting everyone on the same page, putting individual is the position to make the most of tehir talent, and work together. But if an individual doesn't have enough desire at the professional level you call then Wayne Brigde or Winston Bolgrade, not Yaya Toure.

So Yaya plays at 95-100% every week. Yaya + a manager who puts him in a role to succeed, a team who is on the same page, and a little luck = something greater than what Yaya can produce individuality.

Just like Bob + a proper incentive/commission structure + competent assisting staff + good marketing push = more than Bob would produce on his own.

[Bridge'srightfoot]

Rodney Marsh was just about my favourite City player ever, & he was a lazy twat.

The other night in the Rags v Chelsea game, Rooney tracked back to his own byline to make a tackle win the ball and set up an attack which resulted in a decent effort on goal (I think) Either way he did more than he needed to.
Just to add to your point

You are covering your eyes if you think Yaya NEVER tracks back or chases someone to the byline and makes a tackle.

I'm not making that point at all. I'm somewhere between you and Ted on your debate about Yaya.
It was more backing up Ted's point about players doing more than they need to sometimes and reaping the rewards. Bellamy was the same.
Do you remember the 4-2 against Arsenal in Hughes's second season? Bellamy sprinted back about 60 yards, tackled Clichy (I think it was) won the ball back then ran up field with it and played in SWP who scored. It wasn't his job to track back and do this but he did more then he needed to.
That extra effort led to a vital goal.
Likewise with Yaya and Cavani. It wasn't necessarily his job to pick Cavani up but if he had, he may have prevented the ball getting to Cavani or at worst applied some pressure to him so he wouldn't have had so much time and space to pick his spot.

[Beefymcfc]

I'm a great motivator so fuck you and get it done!

[Risby]

Read through the pages on this thread and the topic seems to be more about Yaya's ability to track back rather than the title.

To add my opinion to the debate, I do think Yaya needs to do more in his defensive duties. As we meet these world class teams, the need to work as a unit is required. Without this, holes appear and leave us vulnerable to attacks. If Yaya leaves the gap, he should be pulled for it whether or not people think that is his job. He has a duty to defend and if he fails to do it, he needs to be spoken to or substituted.

I would also like Yaya to stretch his legs more and do those surging runs he used to. But I do wonder if he has been told not to so the team keeps its shape.

Either way, the unit is better together than one man. One man can produce the skill or magic to unlock a defence or a team of players can do through good football, but defensively, the team needs organisation and shape.

I've played rugby for 21 years and our defensive line works as one. If one player rushes out of the line, a gap is created and can be attacked. Staying in a line and as one unit is one of the first things taught when playing rugby.

[Ted Hughes]

Rodney Marsh was just about my favourite City player ever, & he was a lazy twat.

The other night in the Rags v Chelsea game, Rooney tracked back to his own byline to make a tackle win the ball and set up an attack which resulted in a decent effort on goal (I think) Either way he did more than he needed to.
Just to add to your point

You are covering your eyes if you think Yaya NEVER tracks back or chases someone to the byline and makes a tackle.

I'm not making that point at all. I'm somewhere between you and Ted on your debate about Yaya.
It was more backing up Ted's point about players doing more than they need to sometimes and reaping the rewards. Bellamy was the same.
Do you remember the 4-2 against Arsenal in Hughes's second season? Bellamy sprinted back about 60 yards, tackled Clichy (I think it was) won the ball back then ran up field with it and played in SWP who scored. It wasn't his job to track back and do this but he did more then he needed to.
That extra effort led to a vital goal.
Likewise with Yaya and Cavani. It wasn't necessarily his job to pick Cavani up but if he had, he may have prevented the ball getting to Cavani or at worst applied some pressure to him so he wouldn't have had so much time and space to pick his spot.

You're wasting your fucking time.

Every City player is perfect & cannot improve in any way, & anybody who thinks they can, is disloyal.

[Beefymcfc]

Bit dramatic there Ted.

I honestly like having Yaya in our side and understand that he isn't th best at certain things, and that usually comes out when we have a bad performance. However, he brings far more to our team than he detracts from it and some of the stuff he does is quite sensational. Just because we have now decided to play Fernando next to him instead of having the likes of Barry shouldn't mean we are now out for Yaya, it's up to the 2 to square it away.

Who would I choose to be in there with the 2 competitive games I've seen then it would be undoubtedly be Yaya, not a choice.

Who would I have in there if there was a choice then it would be Yaya and Barry, especially with the shite we saw at the weekend.

[Rag_hater]

Yaya, is the best player in the world if he wants to be imo. But he's happy just to get through games doing the minimum required.

Very unfair to Yaya and also inaccurate. Someone doesn't get to his level without wanting to win every game.

Rodney Marsh wanted to win every game, as did Kinkladze. They were a right pair of lazy cunts but they wanted to win.

Yaya is capable of completely overwhelming any opponent defensively. He only actually chases back at full speed once or twice per game. When he does, he almost always gets the ball back. Colin Bell would do the same 30 times if needed. It would hurt, but he would do it.

Yaya is no Colin Bell but It is within his ability to do more of it. He chooses not to. He covers ground & is actually moving quite a lot, but he's jogging most of the time, not pushing himself.

Did anybody ever score agaist us when Colin the man who never stopped running played or was he lazy.