Hillsborough Report

[Evenmydoghatesunited]

There are stages off pissed, as you well know. Fatal crowd crushes happen to entirely sober groups too. Alcohol wasn't the problem and it's not the solution.

I for one think south yorkshire police also conspired to cover up the Heysel business too. Pissed bastards.

[Dameerto]

As long ago as 1989 in his Interim report Taylor stated categorically that the fans were not to blame for the tragedy. Sorry for interupting your scouse bashing.

[Rag_hater]

No doubt it was very sad what happened,but if it was a part of the reason that things began to change then it was a tragedy that needed to happen.It was pretty common knowledge what went on at foootball matches and with Heysal still being in peoples minds no doubt Dipper fans had a bit of a reputation and if the dibble had not have been prepared for what the Dipper fans were well known for then they could be accused of not doing their jobs,other than that I think it was a fragic accident which led to some good.

[Wonderwall]

No doubt it was very sad what happened,but if it was a part of the reason that things began to change then it was a tragedy that needed to happen.It was pretty common knowledge what went on at foootball matches and with Heysal still being in peoples minds no doubt Dipper fans had a bit of a reputation and if the dibble had not have been prepared for what the Dipper fans were well known for then they could be accused of not doing their jobs,other than that I think it was a fragic accident which led to some good.

That part about dibbles makes no sense. They could be accused of not doing their jobs? I dont understand, it might be me reading it wrong or lost intranslation, either way im confuddled

[Alex Sapphire]

There are stages off pissed, as you well know. Fatal crowd crushes happen to entirely sober groups too. Alcohol wasn't the problem and it's not the solution.

I for one think south yorkshire police also conspired to cover up the Heysel business too. Pissed bastards.

No. Although the Belgium Police officer in charge was found guilty of involuntary manslaughter as was the ex Head of the Belgian Football Union. They can't have been given time to cover up their mistakes.

[ronk]

No doubt it was very sad what happened,but if it was a part of the reason that things began to change then it was a tragedy that needed to happen.It was pretty common knowledge what went on at foootball matches and with Heysal still being in peoples minds no doubt Dipper fans had a bit of a reputation and if the dibble had not have been prepared for what the Dipper fans were well known for then they could be accused of not doing their jobs,other than that I think it was a fragic accident which led to some good.

It didn't need to happen you clod.

The police were prepared for Liverpool fans sometimes being arseholes at games, they weren't prepared for proper crowd management, communication and actual safe practises.

When they tried to blame Liverpool fans they obstructed the process of trying to bring about reform. The cover up didn't facilitate necessary changes, it drew attention away from important issues. Football was made safe in spite of their actions, not because.

[Slim]

No doubt it was very sad what happened,but if it was a part of the reason that things began to change then it was a tragedy that needed to happen.It was pretty common knowledge what went on at foootball matches and with Heysal still being in peoples minds no doubt Dipper fans had a bit of a reputation and if the dibble had not have been prepared for what the Dipper fans were well known for then they could be accused of not doing their jobs,other than that I think it was a fragic accident which led to some good.

It didn't need to happen you clod.

The police were prepared for Liverpool fans sometimes being arseholes at games, they weren't prepared for proper crowd management, communication and actual safe practises.

When they tried to blame Liverpool fans they obstructed the process of trying to bring about reform. The cover up didn't facilitate necessary changes, it drew attention away from important issues. Football was made safe in spite of their actions, not because.

I hate to agree with RH ever, but are you 100% sure things would have changed like they have? I don't think he is saying it's a good thing that 96 people died, but it did bring about ground reform and stopped this from ever being able to happen again. There are positives to take from this tragedy, by no means do they balance the books, but I believe it was a catalyst for the changes that we see the benefit from today.

[ronk]

No doubt it was very sad what happened,but if it was a part of the reason that things began to change then it was a tragedy that needed to happen.It was pretty common knowledge what went on at foootball matches and with Heysal still being in peoples minds no doubt Dipper fans had a bit of a reputation and if the dibble had not have been prepared for what the Dipper fans were well known for then they could be accused of not doing their jobs,other than that I think it was a fragic accident which led to some good.

It didn't need to happen you clod.

The police were prepared for Liverpool fans sometimes being arseholes at games, they weren't prepared for proper crowd management, communication and actual safe practises.

When they tried to blame Liverpool fans they obstructed the process of trying to bring about reform. The cover up didn't facilitate necessary changes, it drew attention away from important issues. Football was made safe in spite of their actions, not because.

I hate to agree with RH ever, but are you 100% sure things would have changed like they have? I don't think he is saying it's a good thing that 96 people died, but it did bring about ground reform and stopped this from ever being able to happen again. There are positives to take from this tragedy, by no means do they balance the books, but I believe it was a catalyst for the changes that we see the benefit from today.

No, but it's like saying the 2004 Tsunami was a good thing because now there are improved warning systems. Many of these reforms could and should have happened regardless of Hillsborough. It was only gross incompetence and indifference to human suffering that that led to the status quo of the time.

Should people wear seatbelts because it's safe? Should they wait until they experience a loss? In the latter case, do we say that the accident was something that needed to happen to get others wearing seatbelts.

Hillsborough didn't have an up-to-date safety cert, it simply wasn't seen as a priority. Did it take such a huge disaster for people to realize that they should have expanded the turnstyle capacity when they expanded the stadium? No, it was known, it was understood that it was dangerous. Burnden Park, Ibrox, Valley Parade, Heysel (and plenty of other cases around the world): Hillsborough wasn't new, it didn't need to happen, it never should have happened.

There have been improvements in stadium safety since then, but many other places were able to get by without disasters . I disagree with the need to fuck up repeatedly before eventually learning a lesson.

[Ted Hughes]

No doubt it was very sad what happened,but if it was a part of the reason that things began to change then it was a tragedy that needed to happen.It was pretty common knowledge what went on at foootball matches and with Heysal still being in peoples minds no doubt Dipper fans had a bit of a reputation and if the dibble had not have been prepared for what the Dipper fans were well known for then they could be accused of not doing their jobs,other than that I think it was a fragic accident which led to some good.

It didn't need to happen you clod.

The police were prepared for Liverpool fans sometimes being arseholes at games, they weren't prepared for proper crowd management, communication and actual safe practises.

When they tried to blame Liverpool fans they obstructed the process of trying to bring about reform. The cover up didn't facilitate necessary changes, it drew attention away from important issues. Football was made safe in spite of their actions, not because.

I hate to agree with RH ever, but are you 100% sure things would have changed like they have? I don't think he is saying it's a good thing that 96 people died, but it did bring about ground reform and stopped this from ever being able to happen again. There are positives to take from this tragedy, by no means do they balance the books, but I believe it was a catalyst for the changes that we see the benefit from today.

No, but it's like saying the 2004 Tsunami was a good thing because now there are improved warning systems. Many of these reforms could and should have happened regardless of Hillsborough. It was only gross incompetence and indifference to human suffering that that led to the status quo of the time.

Should people wear seatbelts because it's safe? Should they wait until they experience a loss? In the latter case, do we say that the accident was something that needed to happen to get others wearing seatbelts.

Hillsborough didn't have an up-to-date safety cert, it simply wasn't seen as a priority. Did it take such a huge disaster for people to realize that they should have expanded the turnstyle capacity when they expanded the stadium? No, it was known, it was understood that it was dangerous. Burnden Park, Ibrox, Valley Parade, Heysel (and plenty of other cases around the world): Hillsborough wasn't new, it didn't need to happen, it never should have happened.

There have been improvements in stadium safety since then, but many other places were able to get by without disasters . I disagree with the need to fuck up repeatedly before eventually learning a lesson.

Football fans were seen as subhuman so their safety wasn't a priority. It was more important to deter them from whatever evil deed they were about to commit than to ensure thay stayed alive.

People like Thatcher & Colin Moynihan & Boris Johnson just saw an event like this as a bunch of animals killing each other. Something they could 'tut, tut' at & make political capital by winding up the masses into screaming 'what are we going to do about these people ?'.

It's their worst nightmare politically to find that the majority of people did nothing wrong whatsoever & that, in actual fact, it's their fault. Because of their negligence & concentration on stopping the violent minority, instead of helping the majority to watch football unhindered, this kind of thing was going to happen. A cover up was essential for those kind of people.

Now we are patting the cunts on the back for helping London.

[Dameerto]

Ronk's right, 'all' the tragedy did was overcome inertia by clubs/authorities towards safety. The event was predictable as pointed out in the summary of the HIP report from a couple of days ago based on previous disasters. It is criminal that the pens were allowed to have their capacity unaltered instead of lowered after work, criminal that the near-disaster of 1981 (which resulted in the ground being suspended from holding important cup matches for several years) wasn't learned from, and criminal that incidents in 1987 and 1988 weren't learned from (and actually ignored) once the ground had been altered and cup matches were allowed again. Not to mention the criminal level of policing that took place on the day itself by someone who shouldn't have been in overall control in the first place.

[Slim]

Ronk's right, 'all' the tragedy did was overcome inertia by clubs/authorities towards safety. The event was predictable as pointed out in the summary of the HIP report from a couple of days ago based on previous disasters. It is criminal that the pens were allowed to have their capacity unaltered instead of lowered after work, criminal that the near-disaster of 1981 (which resulted in the ground being suspended from holding important cup matches for several years) wasn't learned from, and criminal that incidents in 1987 and 1988 weren't learned from (and actually ignored) once the ground had been altered and cup matches were allowed again. Not to mention the criminal level of policing that took place on the day itself by someone who shouldn't have been in overall control in the first place.

You've just said ronk's right, and then explained that he's wrong.

The lessons weren't learnt from near tragedies as you've stated.

[Dameerto]

Ronk's right, 'all' the tragedy did was overcome inertia by clubs/authorities towards safety. The event was predictable as pointed out in the summary of the HIP report from a couple of days ago based on previous disasters. It is criminal that the pens were allowed to have their capacity unaltered instead of lowered after work, criminal that the near-disaster of 1981 (which resulted in the ground being suspended from holding important cup matches for several years) wasn't learned from, and criminal that incidents in 1987 and 1988 weren't learned from (and actually ignored) once the ground had been altered and cup matches were allowed again. Not to mention the criminal level of policing that took place on the day itself by someone who shouldn't have been in overall control in the first place.

You've just said ronk's right, and then explained that he's wrong.

The lessons weren't learnt from near tragedies as you've stated.

My explanation WAS his meaning, you seem to have misunderstood his reply to Rag Hater - he responded to your question and I was agreeing with his reply. The changes after the disaster SHOULD have already taken place before it happened because of various disasters and incidents with reports published after each, listing recommendations which were ignored each time on grounds of cost and indifference.

[Rag_hater]

Ronk's right, 'all' the tragedy did was overcome inertia by clubs/authorities towards safety. The event was predictable as pointed out in the summary of the HIP report from a couple of days ago based on previous disasters. It is criminal that the pens were allowed to have their capacity unaltered instead of lowered after work, criminal that the near-disaster of 1981 (which resulted in the ground being suspended from holding important cup matches for several years) wasn't learned from, and criminal that incidents in 1987 and 1988 weren't learned from (and actually ignored) once the ground had been altered and cup matches were allowed again. Not to mention the criminal level of policing that took place on the day itself by someone who shouldn't have been in overall control in the first place.

You've just said ronk's right, and then explained that he's wrong.

The lessons weren't learnt from near tragedies as you've stated.

My explanation WAS his meaning, you seem to have misunderstood his reply to Rag Hater - he responded to your question and I was agreeing with his reply. The changes after the disaster SHOULD have already taken place before it happened because of various disasters and incidents with reports published after each, listing recommendations which were ignored each time on grounds of cost and indifference.

No doubt what needed to be done was clear but the fact that alll these incidents happened and fuckall was done suggests something more major needed to happen.I think the authourities knew they had to do something but if they did anything prior to a tragedy like Hillsborough,they would have been accused of scaremongering.I think the fans needed Hillsborough to change their attitudes.I think it made a lot of the people who went grow up as it were

[Ted Hughes]

Ronk's right, 'all' the tragedy did was overcome inertia by clubs/authorities towards safety. The event was predictable as pointed out in the summary of the HIP report from a couple of days ago based on previous disasters. It is criminal that the pens were allowed to have their capacity unaltered instead of lowered after work, criminal that the near-disaster of 1981 (which resulted in the ground being suspended from holding important cup matches for several years) wasn't learned from, and criminal that incidents in 1987 and 1988 weren't learned from (and actually ignored) once the ground had been altered and cup matches were allowed again. Not to mention the criminal level of policing that took place on the day itself by someone who shouldn't have been in overall control in the first place.

You've just said ronk's right, and then explained that he's wrong.

The lessons weren't learnt from near tragedies as you've stated.

My explanation WAS his meaning, you seem to have misunderstood his reply to Rag Hater - he responded to your question and I was agreeing with his reply. The changes after the disaster SHOULD have already taken place before it happened because of various disasters and incidents with reports published after each, listing recommendations which were ignored each time on grounds of cost and indifference.

No doubt what needed to be done was clear but the fact that alll these incidents happened and fuckall was done suggests something more major needed to happen.I think the authourities knew they had to do something but if they did anything prior to a tragedy like Hillsborough,they would have been accused of scaremongering.I think the fans needed Hillsborough to change their attitudes.I think it made a lot of the people who went grow up as it were

You've never been to a football match have you ?

[dazby]

Has Sheffield Wednesday come out and said anything?

[ashton287]

All I have heard since this report came out is "sir Alex thinks...." "sir Alex says...." "sir Alex announced.....".

He is such a slimy attention grabbing cunt he can't allow anything to happen without making it about him.

[Rag_hater]

This is the truth of the matter.

There were still a majority of decent people who just wanted to watch football, but there was a vicious, selfish, minority who saw football as an excuse to behave like animals.

Tbf to the police, there were occasions at away matches where I would say that, out of for example 5,000 City fans, more than half, possibly 70% were drunken, violent, scum & made the lives of the police & the general public a misery. It was usually a much smaller percentage than that, but I have been in crowds where it seemed like almost everyone was a nasty, agressive, pissed up headcase, abusing the police & any bystanders, oppo players, stewards, etc at every turn. BUT, if it kicks off with another opposing gang of headcases, you find yourself fighting on the side of the City headcases, & if you've had a drink, then you too are now a nasty, pissed up, violent headcase.

Liverpool were by a distance the worst, most inhuman, cowardly, nasty, scum I ever encountered & there is no doubt in my mind, whatever this report says, that a percentage of people in that crowd would have come into that catagory, just as they did at the final only a few years ago when some robbed their own fans for tickets. It still shouldn't result in aload of innoccent fans being dead though, it should be taken into account & dealt with calmly & efficiently, but in those days, the police & Thatcher & the press treated everyone as scum.

And there's the problem. It's the guys & girls & kids who get their tickets robbed, who innoccently came to watch a game of football, who the police & authorities have a DUTY TO PROTECT, who end up dead because all the authorities were interested in is herding people in & out like cattle & using their sticks like cattle prods against anyone who steps out of line, even to ask a question; you could get a smack off a copper in those days for asking directions, or telling one that you were being herded to the train station when you needed to go to the car park.

A percentage of fans behaved very badly at football matches in those days, but the authorities, led by the fucking bitch Thatcher, created the circumstances where sooner or later, this was going to happen, & chances are if it had happened in Manchester, Birmingham, London, the same cover up would occur because they covered up stuff at every ground every week.

Some of those people have blood on their hands, right up to the top, & now we have that evidence, they need exposing & the whole world needs to know their part in this disgrace.

You've never been to a football match have you ?

Dickhead ready to punch me again

[Ted Hughes]

This is the truth of the matter.

There were still a majority of decent people who just wanted to watch football, but there was a vicious, selfish, minority who saw football as an excuse to behave like animals.

Tbf to the police, there were occasions at away matches where I would say that, out of for example 5,000 City fans, more than half, possibly 70% were drunken, violent, scum & made the lives of the police & the general public a misery. It was usually a much smaller percentage than that, but I have been in crowds where it seemed like almost everyone was a nasty, agressive, pissed up headcase, abusing the police & any bystanders, oppo players, stewards, etc at every turn. BUT, if it kicks off with another opposing gang of headcases, you find yourself fighting on the side of the City headcases, & if you've had a drink, then you too are now a nasty, pissed up, violent headcase.

Liverpool were by a distance the worst, most inhuman, cowardly, nasty, scum I ever encountered & there is no doubt in my mind, whatever this report says, that a percentage of people in that crowd would have come into that catagory, just as they did at the final only a few years ago when some robbed their own fans for tickets. It still shouldn't result in aload of innoccent fans being dead though, it should be taken into account & dealt with calmly & efficiently, but in those days, the police & Thatcher & the press treated everyone as scum.

And there's the problem. It's the guys & girls & kids who get their tickets robbed, who innoccently came to watch a game of football, who the police & authorities have a DUTY TO PROTECT, who end up dead because all the authorities were interested in is herding people in & out like cattle & using their sticks like cattle prods against anyone who steps out of line, even to ask a question; you could get a smack off a copper in those days for asking directions, or telling one that you were being herded to the train station when you needed to go to the car park.

A percentage of fans behaved very badly at football matches in those days, but the authorities, led by the fucking bitch Thatcher, created the circumstances where sooner or later, this was going to happen, & chances are if it had happened in Manchester, Birmingham, London, the same cover up would occur because they covered up stuff at every ground every week.

Some of those people have blood on their hands, right up to the top, & now we have that evidence, they need exposing & the whole world needs to know their part in this disgrace.

You've never been to a football match have you ?

Dickhead ready to punch me again

You haven't though have you ?

[Ted Hughes]

All I have heard since this report came out is "sir Alex thinks...." "sir Alex says...." "sir Alex announced.....".

He is such a slimy attention grabbing cunt he can't allow anything to happen without making it about him.

Diffusing the atmosphere between Liverpool & Utd makes it easier for them to get 3 points when they go to at Anfield.

That's all the old cunt actually cares about.

[Alex Sapphire]

Has Sheffield Wednesday come out and said anything?

Yup: an apology...

A statement from Sheffield Wednesday said: 'Chairman Milan Mandaric and the current board of directors have adopted a policy of complete compliance with the requests of the Hillsborough Independent Panel and on behalf of the club would like to offer our sincere condolences and an apology to all the families who have suffered as a consequence of the tragic events of 15 April, 1989.'