Red Rom to sabotage for City

[john68]

I keep saying this but everyone keeps going back to Platini and UeFA. They are not a problem. They have little power as was proven when they rolled over to the wishes of the original cartel group and gave them what they wanted without a murmur.

Those decisions; the restructuring of the CL into the (originally) 2 league system, the setting up of qualifying rounds to get rid of the smaller clubs, the bigger payments to clubs from England, Germany, Italy and Spain was to the detriment of every club from every country outside those four. They succeeded in getting all this actioned without any objections. UeFA caved in, because the cartel threatened to walk away and set up their own superleague....and not even a whimper from anyone was heard.

It is the "give us what we want or we leave" threat which is still real. It was about greed initially, now it is about their survival. Without maximising their CL (or superleague) profits, some major European clubs could go to the wall. We have become a direct threat to them.

UeFA is not the problem. The cartel is. Does anyone really think the rags are going to sit by and cheer us on as we threaten to overtake them and take the huge slice of cash that they need to stay in business?

[edge275]

I keep saying this but everyone keeps going back to Platini and UeFA. They are not a problem. They have little power as was proven when they rolled over to the wishes of the original cartel group and gave them what they wanted without a murmur.

Those decisions; the restructuring of the CL into the (originally) 2 league system, the setting up of qualifying rounds to get rid of the smaller clubs, the bigger payments to clubs from England, Germany, Italy and Spain was to the detriment of every club from every country outside those four. They succeeded in getting all this actioned without any objections. UeFA caved in, because the cartel threatened to walk away and set up their own superleague....and not even a whimper from anyone was heard.

It is the "give us what we want or we leave" threat which is still real. It was about greed initially, now it is about their survival. Without maximising their CL (or superleague) profits, some major European clubs could go to the wall. We have become a direct threat to them.

UeFA is not the problem. The cartel is. Does anyone really think the rags are going to sit by and cheer us on as we threaten to overtake them and take the huge slice of cash that they need to stay in business?

What amazes me is that 3 of the top 4 clubs (barring Chelsea) have been ALLOWED to become so dependent on the CL money.

Let's take Arsenal as an example. I have seen, heard, read from several sources that they need to qualify into the CL each and every year to manage paying the money back for their stadium.

Who in their right mind lent them that money on that basis? From what I can remember they've lent the money over either 20 or 25 years.

So in order to pay it back they have to qualify for the Champions League for the next 25 years?

They have little money for transfers so are relying on Wenger's and their scouts' genius of plucking young players up for peanuts and turning them into superstars. When they went to the bank was their business plan an A4 piece of paper with "ARSENE WENGER" written in bold at the front?

As for Hicks, Gillette and the Glazers how have they been allowed to load their respective clubs up with so much debt?

No wonder we're in a credit crunch with madness like this around.

[Ted Hughes]

I keep saying this but everyone keeps going back to Platini and UeFA. They are not a problem. They have little power as was proven when they rolled over to the wishes of the original cartel group and gave them what they wanted without a murmur.

Those decisions; the restructuring of the CL into the (originally) 2 league system, the setting up of qualifying rounds to get rid of the smaller clubs, the bigger payments to clubs from England, Germany, Italy and Spain was to the detriment of every club from every country outside those four. They succeeded in getting all this actioned without any objections. UeFA caved in, because the cartel threatened to walk away and set up their own superleague....and not even a whimper from anyone was heard.

It is the "give us what we want or we leave" threat which is still real. It was about greed initially, now it is about their survival. Without maximising their CL (or superleague) profits, some major European clubs could go to the wall. We have become a direct threat to them.

UeFA is not the problem. The cartel is. Does anyone really think the rags are going to sit by and cheer us on as we threaten to overtake them and take the huge slice of cash that they need to stay in business?

What amazes me is that 3 of the top 4 clubs (barring Chelsea) have been ALLOWED to become so dependent on the CL money.

Let's take Arsenal as an example. I have seen, heard, read from several sources that they need to qualify into the CL each and every year to manage paying the money back for their stadium.

Who in their right mind lent them that money on that basis? From what I can remember they've lent the money over either 20 or 25 years.

So in order to pay it back they have to qualify for the Champions League for the next 25 years?

They have little money for transfers so are relying on Wenger's and their scouts' genius of plucking young players up for peanuts and turning them into superstars. When they went to the bank was their business plan an A4 piece of paper with "ARSENE WENGER" written in bold at the front?

As for Hicks, Gillette and the Glazers how have they been allowed to load their respective clubs up with so much debt?

No wonder we're in a credit crunch with madness like this around.

They weren't expecting the recession & it's put the knackers on things for most of 'em. If they can ride it out though, it'll turn around eventually. The Glazers will be able to sell the rags on to another Arab or to China or something if they can stick it out & Arsenal have already got several rich bastards fighting for ownership.

Regarding the cartel, if they do break away, someone has to finance it. Our people may well get involved. Whoever finances it will want us in there anyway & the money men at these clubs won't object so long as they're getting their cut. Money is the biggest force behind these people. They're scared of us because they think we might end up costing them dearly. We'd actually add to their income in a new European league. A lot of people are going to want to watch us in the future & that will generate money.

[john68]

Ted,
I posted earlier that I thought any threat was being generated from within the present English top four and that they were using their cohorts in the cartel to assist them politically.
I also added that I cannot see that we pose any threat to the European based clubs in the cartel. In fact, for them it may be beneficial to deal with City...a club that can pay its way...rather than the present four who have major debt problems.

With regard to the funding of a breakaway Euro Super league, it would be not only self funding, but a very lucrative product to sell on the World market. The World TV rights alone would generate massive amounts of money through Worldwide sales. TV audiences and marketting of merchandise. Such a major league containing the European giants, playing each other on a weekly basis could be the football product that broke the USA market.

Though I see this as a serious threat and I see our weakness as the new kids/threat on the block, there are steps we can take to overcome it. The most important is to make allies. I do not feel it is inevitable that we will be shut out.

[Socrates]

Firstly, this won't ever happen because there is far too much commercial stuff to unravel and too many Clubs would have an opinion.

If it did, the following from 'Abu Dhabi' is just one of many easily thought out suggestions which could be brought into play and would tie the courts up for years as to the legitimacy and practicality.

Eh, Al-Jazira will buy all City Players and loan them back on a free.

300M profit and no wages to pay..

Also, we could have whatever income we need just by increasing the amounts we get sponsored by companies which are also privately owned by the Sheik. It would actually suit them from an international tax point of of view ..... any of the Sheik's businesses which were having a good year could all of a sudden decide to sponsor our stadium for 25 mill or even our corner flags and Carrington tea ladies for a similar amount of money just to cook the books in which ever way Eufa wanted to read them.

If that wasn't enough, the Sheik could decide to have his own box for his family (or even a chosen list of charities) ...... and the Club could charge him £50 mill a year for it.

You see, give me another 10 mins and I could come up with dozens of similar suggestions as to how our income can be inflated whichever way we need it to be.

Good debate material ..... but don't worry about it.

What's far more worrying is reducing the amount of EPL clubs from 4 to 3 (and maybe even lower) or this 6 + 5 rule they are talking about .

No Lytham no. Not that simple. Abu Dhabi's plan would not work at all. There are already strict rules as to how many players can be had on loan at one time. Is it 4 in total and only 1 from any individual club? Cannot remember exactly, but I know the rules are there. There will most certainly be rules on artificially inflating income too. Will be very difficult to do legitimately and if caught doing it I can imagine all sorts of horrors coming our way. Your suggestion of the box rental fior example - it's money in from a connected party and would simply be disallowed from the turnover calculation. Don't forget that this is an expansion of an existing established set of rules on who can and cannot play in ECL. They can pretty much do what they like with that set of rules and the only thing to be sure of preventing them is actually getting our turnover up legitimately before they act. That means ECL qualification and quickly. There is no alternative.

[Socrates]

Ted,
I posted earlier that I thought any threat was being generated from within the present English top four and that they were using their cohorts in the cartel to assist them politically.
I also added that I cannot see that we pose any threat to the European based clubs in the cartel. In fact, for them it may be beneficial to deal with City...a club that can pay its way...rather than the present four who have major debt problems.

With regard to the funding of a breakaway Euro Super league, it would be not only self funding, but a very lucrative product to sell on the World market. The World TV rights alone would generate massive amounts of money through Worldwide sales. TV audiences and marketting of merchandise. Such a major league containing the European giants, playing each other on a weekly basis could be the football product that broke the USA market.

Though I see this as a serious threat and I see our weakness as the new kids/threat on the block, there are steps we can take to overcome it. The most important is to make allies. I do not feel it is inevitable that we will be shut out.

Disagree john that we aren't a threat to the rest of Europe. Our spending power is way ahead of even the Spanish elite and we are therefore a major threat to them and a problem to them if we are allowed to continue to inflate the top end wage market. They aren't as desperate to stop us as the Sky 4 but they won't mind helping them do so. I honestly don't think we can make allies easily. All we can really do is get our turnover up there very fast and to do that we absolutely HAVE to get into the ECL.

[Original Dub]

What, another prophecy you made coming true? Please!

No matter how you paint it, its 9 points from 9 with no goals conceded.

How does that compare to your 'saviours' I listed above?

Very very favourably, just like I predicted.

Ciao.

Very fortunate not to concede 2 goals and only have 5 points. Against 3 poor teams. Way too soon to draw any conclusions. And as for the "list" you are including managers, such as Zico, that I had advocated long before the takeover, when we couldn't manage to attract world class managers. Now please list the trophies won by Mark Hughes as a manger and tell me why he is such a good choice and so much more qualified than the 2 managers I have promoted since the takeover - namely Mancini or Rijkaard?

Ah very good, you're another one of those funny people - "if that hadn't hit the post it could have been a goal" Ifs ands or buts - that only apply to the opposition - is that how we play this game? Or does our team get a slice of the action too? Like the perfectly good goal that Micah scored, or the two very viable penalty shouts? That was only the last game by the way... What about Ireland's one on one that he scuffed? No, this is a fucking STUPID game and one that goes on in school yards all across the world. Lets leave them carry on like kids...

Mark Hughes hasn't won any trophies yet. Does that mean you're right? Does that mean we should have hired Van Gaal who looks like he's about to get fucked out of Bayern because of their WORST START SINCE THE ICE AGE? Or Mancini, who is currently out of work? Or Rikjard who went to a shit league because no one else wanted him? One manager that's past it and two that were marquee managers who were handed teams that were already challenging for titles and funds to go one extra step.

Currently, Mark Hughes is fairing a LOT better than the 'saviours' you constantly went on and on about.

If that hurts, I'm extremely sorry for you, but life's a bitch and while I know its hard for someone who gloats like a prophet to be frequently shown up, I have to say....

THANK FUCK WE DIDN'T GO FOR THE MANAGERS YOU WANTED.

:)

[mcfc1632]

Just a quick post - and a quick plea from Cyprus - just to stop me reading too many posts that make me think ... please stop!!

I can see lots of good debate - that is all great - although I am amazed that people are still posting anything about the debt of the RAGS and Liverpool - guys - this is simply not an issue - care has been taken to ensure that it is not an issue - for the avoidance of doubt : the size of the debt of these clubs is absolutely no issue to these proposals - is that clear!!

Also - I keep seeing repeated comments about legal action / European law / Bosman type - etc - please guys stop doing this.

If someone on here is a qualified expert in conducting commercial business under European law - then please put your hands up - until then I will offer that I have 20 years experience of major business transactions (GBP Billions)under European law and have felt concerned enough about these potential regulations to email a good friend who is a practising lawyer in European law and has been for 30 years - our views are clear:

THERE IS LITTLE / NO REASON WHY THE EUROPEAN COURTS WOULD BE REMOTELY INTERESTED IN THESE PROPOSALS AS THEY DO NOT CONTRAVENE ANY EXISTING OR PLANNED EURPOEAN LEGISLATION - IS THAT CLEAR - (whereas the opposite was the case with Bosman) - UeFA would have to be very clumsy in the way these plans are introduced for this to be the case and they have time to make sure this does not happen

Not moaning here just trying to help - for what its worth I am firmly in the camp of those who are concerned - it is the intent which we should be concerned about - which I think comes mainly from Liverpool and Scum (they are desperate - they will go bust without CL) - acting to get Chelsea onside - and the intent is how they stop CITY using Uefa and they can develop this thinking until they have a balance that is right - you can already see how every one of the proposals are tailored to stop CITY but not inpede scum / scouse etc

IMO we need to get cosy with some big European players and even (bad taste I know) UeFA to make it an isloated English problem and remove the support of the clubs from other countries

[Socrates]

Just a quick post - and a quick plea from Cyprus - just to stop me reading too many posts that make me think ... please stop!!

I can see lots of good debate - that is all great - although I am amazed that people are still posting anything about the debt of the RAGS and Liverpool - guys - this is simply not an issue - care has been taken to ensure that it is not an issue - for the avoidance of doubt : the size of the debt of these clubs is absolutely no issue to these proposals - is that clear!!

Also - I keep seeing repeated comments about legal action / European law / Bosman type - etc - please guys stop doing this.

If someone on here is a qualified expert in conducting commercial business under European law - then please put your hands up - until then I will offer that I have 20 years experience of major business transactions (GBP Billions)under European law and have felt concerned enough about these potential regulations to email a good friend who is a practising lawyer in European law and has been for 30 years - our views are clear:

THERE IS LITTLE / NO REASON WHY THE EUROPEAN COURTS WOULD BE REMOTELY INTERESTED IN THESE PROPOSALS AS THEY DO NOT CONTRAVENE ANY EXISTING OR PLANNED EURPOEAN LEGISLATION - IS THAT CLEAR - (whereas the opposite was the case with Bosman) - UeFA would have to be very clumsy in the way these plans are introduced for this to be the case and they have time to make sure this does not happen

Not moaning here just trying to help - for what its worth I am firmly in the camp of those who are concerned - it is the intent which we should be concerned about - which I think comes mainly from Liverpool and Scum (they are desperate - they will go bust without CL) - acting to get Chelsea onside - and the intent is how they stop CITY using Uefa and they can develop this thinking until they have a balance that is right - you can already see how every one of the proposals are tailored to stop CITY but not inpede scum / scouse etc

IMO we need to get cosy with some big European players and even (bad taste I know) UeFA to make it an isloated English problem and remove the support of the clubs from other countries

Thanks for that. Suspected as much about European law. No expert but I couldn't think of a single point that it could be taken to court on.

[Socrates]

What, another prophecy you made coming true? Please!

No matter how you paint it, its 9 points from 9 with no goals conceded.

How does that compare to your 'saviours' I listed above?

Very very favourably, just like I predicted.

Ciao.

Very fortunate not to concede 2 goals and only have 5 points. Against 3 poor teams. Way too soon to draw any conclusions. And as for the "list" you are including managers, such as Zico, that I had advocated long before the takeover, when we couldn't manage to attract world class managers. Now please list the trophies won by Mark Hughes as a manger and tell me why he is such a good choice and so much more qualified than the 2 managers I have promoted since the takeover - namely Mancini or Rijkaard?

Ah very good, you're another one of those funny people - "if that hadn't hit the post it could have been a goal" Ifs ands or buts - that only apply to the opposition - is that how we play this game? Or does our team get a slice of the action too? Like the perfectly good goal that Micah scored, or the two very viable penalty shouts? That was only the last game by the way... What about Ireland's one on one that he scuffed? No, this is a fucking STUPID game and one that goes on in school yards all across the world. Lets leave them carry on like kids...

Mark Hughes hasn't won any trophies yet. Does that mean you're right? Does that mean we should have hired Van Gaal who looks like he's about to get fucked out of Bayern because of their WORST START SINCE THE ICE AGE? Or Mancini, who is currently out of work? Or Rikjard who went to a shit league because no one else wanted him? One manager that's past it and two that were marquee managers who were handed teams that were already challenging for titles and funds to go one extra step.

Currently, Mark Hughes is fairing a LOT better than the 'saviours' you constantly went on and on about.

If that hurts, I'm extremely sorry for you, but life's a bitch and while I know its hard for someone who gloats like a prophet to be frequently shown up, I have to say....

THANK FUCK WE DIDN'T GO FOR THE MANAGERS YOU WANTED.

:)

Totally wrong about what I'm saying so just stop arguing with yourself please. All I'm saying is that it is way too soon to draw conclusions that we are dramatically improved on the basis of three tight victories against teams that are almost certainly going to be bottom 6 this season. We have made some marginal progress, yes, but it is no more than that yet and I was merely pointing out that those last 2 matches could easily have ended draws and we were far from impressive yet so we shouldn't be drawing conclusions or issuing outrageous superlatives just yet!

As for this silliness over alternative managers, look at the squad Rijkaard built at Barca and tell me he isn't better qualified than Hughes! Top jobs don't come up every week but he will be back in one sooner rather than later.
Same with Mancini who transformed Inter's side and has only just stopped being paid by them after his unfair dismissal so is now finally available and bound to be snapped up soon.
I never advocated Van Gaal but he has certainly achieved more than Hughes in management so far. I would judge him at Bayern in the same way as Hughes here. i.e. On a whole season not 3 or 4 games!

[mcfc1632]

Just a small admin point - all this Hughes discussion over the last few pages - should it (or could it) not be on another thread??

This has been a good thread - discussing an important point which could / may not have major impact for our club's future - would just like to keep that discussion going and worry that this is getting lost

[Dameerto]

The board would be dead if people only commented on things they were qualified in. Feel free to skip topics that are likely to cause you too much frustration though.

[john68]

Socs,
You are right regarding the threat we pose to the European based cartel clubs. I should have said that I don't think they see us as a BIGGER threat than the one posed by the present English Top 4. The present Top 4 have always been able to generate funding ( mainly by increasing their debt) and have never had a problem with inflating players' wages whenever it suited their needs.
I can see positives for the European based cartel clubs in dealing with us. Transfers will be paid promptly and they know they are dealing with a club who has a stable financial base.
If the rags and L'Pool start to fade and fail strengthen, it will make their product less of an attraction . As City strengthen our attractiveness will increase.
You are right when you assert that we MUST get our books balanced...that is a big Must.
I also think money talks and it will be easier than you think to attract allies.

[mcfc1632]

The board would be dead if people only commented on things they were qualified in. Feel free to skip topics that are likely to cause you too much frustration though.

But surely the point is that if posters are indeed qualified to give other CITY fans the benefit of their experience then this is helpful - no??

I listen to all sorts of good advice from other posters - grateful that they share their knowledge to stop me groping in the dark

Just some posters (not particularly meaning you) seem to like to spout on about things without any knowledge and indeed in spite of facts / evidence - some just like to do it to be negative - I do not know why

I gave the advice to help - stop people taking undue comfort from things said that are entirely misleading - thought that would be welcome - lots of people on this thread saying that the proposals would be stymied by European Law - when they do not know this and indeed this is not the case - just stop the real issues behind these plans being discussed

[Ted Hughes]

The board would be dead if people only commented on things they were qualified in. Feel free to skip topics that are likely to cause you too much frustration though.

But surely the point is that if posters are indeed qualified to give other CITY fans the benefit of their experience then this is helpful - no??

I listen to all sorts of good advice from other posters - grateful that they share their knowledge to stop me groping in the dark

Just some posters (not particularly meaning you) seem to like to spout on about things without any knowledge and indeed in spite of facts / evidence - some just like to do it to be negative - I do not know why

I gave the advice to help - stop people taking undue comfort from things said that are entirely misleading - thought that would be welcome - lots of people on this thread saying that the proposals would be stymied by European Law - when they do not know this and indeed this is not the case - just stop the real issues behind these plans being discussed

Not the proposals that I recon would be a problem, it would be the sanctions imposed to enforce those proposals. What would be the implications of allowing an organisation to barr a business from competition because their owner puts money into the business yet allowing others who have already done the same to compete? Also how can an organisation demand to see the accounts of a company ie ADUG or whatever, that is the owner or sponsor of a football club, to see how they are financed ? Does that mean Berlusconi will allow them to see the accounts of his media company or Nike etc will allow them to see their accounts? If not the Sheikh can put as much money as he wants in through sponsorship, so therefore they would have to ban clubs who's sponsors won't let them see their accounts whilst letting others compete. Law suit.

[Socrates]

Just a small admin point - all this Hughes discussion over the last few pages - should it (or could it) not be on another thread??

This has been a good thread - discussing an important point which could / may not have major impact for our club's future - would just like to keep that discussion going and worry that this is getting lost

Apologies, that's my fault. I was merely trying to frame my comments in reference to the effect of these proposals on the club as a whole and to do so I wanted to try and explain that this isn't about being negative but realistic and wide awake to dangers. There is a false impression amongst many that I'm a naturally negative poster - which is historically just not true! - and my position could only be fully explained by referencing the fact that my pro-change postings early in the year were in fact based on these very fears. I'm also explaining why we now HAVE to get there with Hughes and that change is no longer an option and people must keep their objectivity if things go wrong.

To my relief we have seen a new urgency from Hughes and Khaldoon and the apparent complacency that was scaring me back then has been overtaken by a realisation of our predicament and some very firm action in the transfer market. I agree there is now a major chance this can be translated into results on the pitch and get us the ECL qualification we now desperately need to secure if the future is to be truely blue.

[Socrates]

Socs,
You are right regarding the threat we pose to the European based cartel clubs. I should have said that I don't think they see us as a BIGGER threat than the one posed by the present English Top 4. The present Top 4 have always been able to generate funding ( mainly by increasing their debt) and have never had a problem with inflating players' wages whenever it suited their needs.
I can see positives for the European based cartel clubs in dealing with us. Transfers will be paid promptly and they know they are dealing with a club who has a stable financial base.
If the rags and L'Pool start to fade and fail strengthen, it will make their product less of an attraction . As City strengthen our attractiveness will increase.
You are right when you assert that we MUST get our books balanced...that is a big Must.
I also think money talks and it will be easier than you think to attract allies.

I'm not convinced at all John. We are a much bigger threat to them as our wages our higher than any previous English club and we have already shown we are a threat to even Real in the transfer market by being in there with a bigger and earlier bid on a major target of their's, Kaka. I think money is indeed talking but it is talking us into trouble not out of it!

[Socrates]

The board would be dead if people only commented on things they were qualified in. Feel free to skip topics that are likely to cause you too much frustration though.

But surely the point is that if posters are indeed qualified to give other CITY fans the benefit of their experience then this is helpful - no??

I listen to all sorts of good advice from other posters - grateful that they share their knowledge to stop me groping in the dark

Just some posters (not particularly meaning you) seem to like to spout on about things without any knowledge and indeed in spite of facts / evidence - some just like to do it to be negative - I do not know why

I gave the advice to help - stop people taking undue comfort from things said that are entirely misleading - thought that would be welcome - lots of people on this thread saying that the proposals would be stymied by European Law - when they do not know this and indeed this is not the case - just stop the real issues behind these plans being discussed

Not the proposals that I recon would be a problem, it would be the sanctions imposed to enforce those proposals. What would be the implications of allowing an organisation to barr a business from competition because their owner puts money into the business yet allowing others who have already done the same to compete? Also how can an organisation demand to see the accounts of a company ie ADUG or whatever, that is the owner or sponsor of a football club, to see how they are financed ? Does that mean Berlusconi will allow them to see the accounts of his media company or Nike etc will allow them to see their accounts? If not the Sheikh can put as much money as he wants in through sponsorship, so therefore they would have to ban clubs who's sponsors won't let them see their accounts whilst letting others compete. Law suit.

Why would they need to see the accounts of those companies? They only need to see the club's accounts and ask them where incoming cash came from and to provide evidence of the source. No need at all to see the books of the external organisation and non compliance by the club would just mean automatic sanction.

[ronk]

Socs,
You are right regarding the threat we pose to the European based cartel clubs. I should have said that I don't think they see us as a BIGGER threat than the one posed by the present English Top 4. The present Top 4 have always been able to generate funding ( mainly by increasing their debt) and have never had a problem with inflating players' wages whenever it suited their needs.
I can see positives for the European based cartel clubs in dealing with us. Transfers will be paid promptly and they know they are dealing with a club who has a stable financial base.
If the rags and L'Pool start to fade and fail strengthen, it will make their product less of an attraction . As City strengthen our attractiveness will increase.
You are right when you assert that we MUST get our books balanced...that is a big Must.
I also think money talks and it will be easier than you think to attract allies.

I'm not convinced at all John. We are a much bigger threat to them as our wages our higher than any previous English club and we have already shown we are a threat to even Real in the transfer market by being in there with a bigger and earlier bid on a major target of their's, Kaka. I think money is indeed talking but it is talking us into trouble not out of it!

How did that one work out for Real?

We've now spent over £100m this summer so we've proven that we would have been able to back up a bid for Kaka. There isn't really any evidence that the price that Real paid was inflated by us. Instead we started the debate about the player leaving and lubricated his path out of there. Real didn't really get any abuse for their role.

If anything we spurred Madrid and Barcelona into action.

[mcfc1632]

The board would be dead if people only commented on things they were qualified in. Feel free to skip topics that are likely to cause you too much frustration though.

But surely the point is that if posters are indeed qualified to give other CITY fans the benefit of their experience then this is helpful - no??

I listen to all sorts of good advice from other posters - grateful that they share their knowledge to stop me groping in the dark

Just some posters (not particularly meaning you) seem to like to spout on about things without any knowledge and indeed in spite of facts / evidence - some just like to do it to be negative - I do not know why

I gave the advice to help - stop people taking undue comfort from things said that are entirely misleading - thought that would be welcome - lots of people on this thread saying that the proposals would be stymied by European Law - when they do not know this and indeed this is not the case - just stop the real issues behind these plans being discussed

Not the proposals that I recon would be a problem, it would be the sanctions imposed to enforce those proposals. What would be the implications of allowing an organisation to barr a business from competition because their owner puts money into the business yet allowing others who have already done the same to compete? Also how can an organisation demand to see the accounts of a company ie ADUG or whatever, that is the owner or sponsor of a football club, to see how they are financed ? Does that mean Berlusconi will allow them to see the accounts of his media company or Nike etc will allow them to see their accounts? If not the Sheikh can put as much money as he wants in through sponsorship, so therefore they would have to ban clubs who's sponsors won't let them see their accounts whilst letting others compete. Law suit.

Ted - do not want to sound like I am contradicting you - as I agree with most of your posts - even on this we are not far apart

I know from 'our end of the telescope' it all looks unfair and the way the proposals have been discussed the comments could make people think that there simply must be some contravention - such as the examples you give - but when you look at this from a genuinely cold legal perspective - it is hard to see how there would be any issue at all - for any aspect of this to be a contravention of European Laws they would have to contravene one of those laws.

the most likely ones to have any relevance are those relating to:

Movement - of goods and people

but more likely those relating to competition (in which case I have much experience)

Collusion and cartels - dominance and acquitsion are areas that might pertain - but these European regulations are mainly aimed to prevent governments creating protectionist markets (although GB seems to be the only one to adhere completely) - it is these areas that people will be mistakenly assuming have some relevance here - I can tell you that they do not - unless UeFA are amazingly stupid in how they structure the fine details of their proposals and associated sanctions

When it comes to the duly appointed governing body of some sporting organisation setting out in a clear and published way its regulations for a competition in which it invites bodies (clubs) to take part - there is no real conceivable way that we would have some appeal to EU law for anything - indeed the issue of an audit of accounts would be simple - and indeed more dangerous for us - they would just set up a 'committee' to review assess - as they do for many other things and it would be their 'deliberation' that would determine outcomes.

If a body (club) was unwilling to submit itself to the published rules of a competition then they would not be invited to enter it - nothing against EU law here - if you think about there are all sort of sporting bodies managing their sport's competition etc

Honestly - there is nothing here for the EU courts - really nothing - trust me I wish there was

I am not trying to prove a point (although I am right) - just get us on to discussing the way forward - which I think means making friends in high places and isolating the scum / scouse - we should use the Sheiks clout to get Perez and Berlusconi batting for us