City legends

[Ted Hughes]

The trouble with the whole thing is the word 'legend' has been devalued in recent years by creeps in the media affording such status to anyone who's retired who's willing to appear on their programmes.

A 'legend' used to be someone who was a truly great player or someone who'd acheived something special for a club & was responsible for affecting a change in it's fortunes. The scorer of a winner in the cup final etc or someone who changes the results of a club & turns it 'round when they arrive; someone who creates history. Now, as NQDP says; cult heroes are being called 'legends' as are people who've done nothing more than play for a cub for a long period or talk a lot on the radio/tv.

Paul Dickov, for instance gets honoury legend status imo for scoring 'that' goal & the Goat for many similar deeds but people like Kevin Horlock or Eyel Berkovic or indeed Dunney, don't qualify in my book even though they've been involved in big moments they're not responsible for 'the' moment. In the 60's-70's we had many legends but have had few since. From that era, people such as Paul Power or Gary Owen will, incorrecltly in my view, be referred to as 'legends' wheras Asa Hartford doesn't get a mention but was one because he was world class.

I find myself using the word incorrectly these days because it's become the normal thing to do.

[Burt]

The trouble with the whole thing is the word 'legend' has been devalued in recent years by creeps in the media affording such status to anyone who's retired who's willing to appear on their programmes.

A 'legend' used to be someone who was a truly great player or someone who'd acheived something special for a club & was responsible for affecting a change in it's fortunes. The scorer of a winner in the cup final etc or someone who changes the results of a club & turns it 'round when they arrive; someone who creates history. Now, as NQDP says; cult heroes are being called 'legends' as are people who've done nothing more than play for a cub for a long period or talk a lot on the radio/tv.

Paul Dickov, for instance gets honoury legend status imo for scoring 'that' goal & the Goat for many similar deeds but people like Kevin Horlock or Eyel Berkovic or indeed Dunney, don't qualify in my book even though they've been involved in big moments they're not responsible for 'the' moment. In the 60's-70's we had many legends but have had few since. From that era, people such as Paul Power or Gary Owen will, incorrecltly in my view, be referred to as 'legends' wheras Asa Hartford doesn't get a mention but was one because he was world class.

I find myself using the word incorrectly these days because it's become the normal thing to do.

You obviously havn't read my post a few comments back Ted :o(

[10.Goater_Legend]

Bert Trautmann, Eric Brook, Paul Dickov, Frank Swift, Roy Paul, Paul Lake and Alan Oakes to name a few more.

[Ted Hughes]

The trouble with the whole thing is the word 'legend' has been devalued in recent years by creeps in the media affording such status to anyone who's retired who's willing to appear on their programmes.

A 'legend' used to be someone who was a truly great player or someone who'd acheived something special for a club & was responsible for affecting a change in it's fortunes. The scorer of a winner in the cup final etc or someone who changes the results of a club & turns it 'round when they arrive; someone who creates history. Now, as NQDP says; cult heroes are being called 'legends' as are people who've done nothing more than play for a cub for a long period or talk a lot on the radio/tv.

Paul Dickov, for instance gets honoury legend status imo for scoring 'that' goal & the Goat for many similar deeds but people like Kevin Horlock or Eyel Berkovic or indeed Dunney, don't qualify in my book even though they've been involved in big moments they're not responsible for 'the' moment. In the 60's-70's we had many legends but have had few since. From that era, people such as Paul Power or Gary Owen will, incorrecltly in my view, be referred to as 'legends' wheras Asa Hartford doesn't get a mention but was one because he was world class.

I find myself using the word incorrectly these days because it's become the normal thing to do.

You obviously havn't read my post a few comments back Ted :o(

Yes I did Burt that's why I mentioned him because it was a good example! Sorry I didn't mention where I got the idea from.

[Tokyo Blue]

Realistically, how many Legends do we think City should have? Not that many, I'd say. Half a dozen? Ten? No more than that if I am honest with myself.

For me, a man who breaks his neck and plays on and a man who plays on until he's 50 at the highest level tick the right boxes. Your top goalscorer ever and your top appearance-maker ever are Legends. Your captain in your most successful period who managed the club to a trophy win is a Legend too. A former international and title-winning player yet the man who was arguably the most inept chairman in the history of the club does not by dint of the spell as Chairman... a real can of worms.

How would you define a Legend?

Whatever, we are due another.

[Dubciteh]

I disagree with the part in bold, its like saying matt le tiss isnt a legend at southampton and clubs that dont win anything dont have any legends basically that only leaves the top 4 in england that are allowed legends, we won the championship but were not allowed have legends from that time?what about lower league clubs who win these divisions are they not entitled to have any legend players?

My point been in a couple of years when i look back on my time as a city fan i will class dunne and a few others as legends as they are all i know....

I see where you're coming from but I disagree I have to say.

Le Tissier is a legend at Southampton for two main reasons 1) that he was sheer class but 2) that he refused to jump ship for a bigger paypacket/club/fame.

He's a funny one in that he's like a cult hero but with genuine top level talent.

I WOULD actually say that most clubs' "legends" are those who have helped them win things (and/or those who have been deemed legends retrospectively with the benefit of hindsight).

Ask Aston Villa fans, for example, who their legends are. And I bet you won't get many names since they conquered Europe in 1982...legend status and success go hand in hand for me.

As Antti said above, I think the line between true legend and cult hero is often blurred in many fans minds.

Shaun Goater is the latter. Despite the fact that I'd like to think of him as being a legend, I know in my heart of hearts that to place him on a pedestal (from a playing perspective) alongside the likes of Colin Bell is just plain wrong (and Shaun I'm sure would be the first to agree to this himself).

Same goes for Richard Dunne.

Fair point, my problem is ive been a city fan in an era starved of sucess like most under 30 city fans hence the reason why i see dunne as a legend, i know we have lots of legends from past eras ive heard and read about them but ive never seen them and although there undoubtedly legends its not the stuff i can tell the kids in future that they cant read themselves! Similar point to above about Goater if i seen goater and bell in a pub id go to goater 1st as ive seen him play and is a legend i can relate to while bell is a legend ive read about and seen small bits of am i making any sense?im finding it hard to put into words what i mean!!

[Ted Hughes]

Realistically, how many Legends do we think City should have? Not that many, I'd say. Half a dozen? Ten? No more than that if I am honest with myself.

For me, a man who breaks his neck and plays on and a man who plays on until he's 50 at the highest level tick the right boxes. Your top goalscorer ever and your top appearance-maker ever are Legends. Your captain in your most successful period who managed the club to a trophy win is a Legend too. A former international and title-winning player yet the man who was arguably the most inept chairman in the history of the club does not by dint of the spell as Chairman... a real can of worms.

How would you define a Legend?

Whatever, we are due another.

Francis Lee's a legend mate. One of the biggest.

[Burt]

The trouble with the whole thing is the word 'legend' has been devalued in recent years by creeps in the media affording such status to anyone who's retired who's willing to appear on their programmes.

A 'legend' used to be someone who was a truly great player or someone who'd acheived something special for a club & was responsible for affecting a change in it's fortunes. The scorer of a winner in the cup final etc or someone who changes the results of a club & turns it 'round when they arrive; someone who creates history. Now, as NQDP says; cult heroes are being called 'legends' as are people who've done nothing more than play for a cub for a long period or talk a lot on the radio/tv.

Paul Dickov, for instance gets honoury legend status imo for scoring 'that' goal & the Goat for many similar deeds but people like Kevin Horlock or Eyel Berkovic or indeed Dunney, don't qualify in my book even though they've been involved in big moments they're not responsible for 'the' moment. In the 60's-70's we had many legends but have had few since. From that era, people such as Paul Power or Gary Owen will, incorrecltly in my view, be referred to as 'legends' wheras Asa Hartford doesn't get a mention but was one because he was world class.

I find myself using the word incorrectly these days because it's become the normal thing to do.

You obviously havn't read my post a few comments back Ted :o(

Yes I did Burt that's why I mentioned him because it was a good example! Sorry I didn't mention where I got the idea from.

Heheee! Top bombin Ted fella:o)

[rick1894citizen]

I didn't start going till late 90's and there hasn't been one LEGEND in that time, my opinion obviously but term legend is used too often and far too lightly.

Horlock,Morrison,Wiekens,Tiatto and Dickov and a whole host of other's like Dunne are all a very important part of our history but untill we start winning or atleast competing for honour's, i don't feel you can have a true legend.

Although if there had to be one for each decade then the Goat would be my choice but as much as i loved the guy in 20-30 years he'll only be remembered by us, where as Lee,Bell and Summerbee will be remembered by all and that for me is a real LEGEND.

I disagree with the part in bold, its like saying matt le tiss isnt a legend at southampton and clubs that dont win anything dont have any legends basically that only leaves the top 4 in england that are allowed legends, we won the championship but were not allowed have legends from that time?what about lower league clubs who win these divisions are they not entitled to have any legend players?

I do however agree with you in respect people have different opinions on what a legend is, mines pretty complicated to explain in words but yes i would class dunne as a city legend, someone who gave his all for a long period, someone who i could relate to, someone who i knew would more often than not dig us out of the shit, someone who did the club proud, someone who when having a debate in the pub you could say "weall at least we have x whos better than what you have in that position regardless of whther were shit or not" and so on, im supporting city around 16years, we haent had many quality players to look up to in that period, someone who as a kid i wanted to be on the street, as a defender dunne was that man, dickov also, kinky aswell sometimes if i was feeling fancy!!! My point been in a couple of years when i look back on my time as a city fan i will class dunne and a few others as legends as they are all i know....

I just feel that real legend's are more than the Dunne's, Goater's etc. NQDP summed it up best with "cult heroes" for me that is the difference. When rivals throughout the league and beyond are looking at a player and saying "wish we had him" or "what a player he is" like a Messi, Torres, etc.

In my eyes there the true legends and like Tokyo said, in our whole history we probably have around a dozen legit legends, Le tiss was a great player and probably regarded as a legend but the majority of stand out players in poor teams are imo cult heroes bar the odd exception as the real superstar's in Cl and trophy winning teams are the ones who will be remembered.

[Ted Hughes]

I didn't start going till late 90's and there hasn't been one LEGEND in that time, my opinion obviously but term legend is used too often and far too lightly.

Horlock,Morrison,Wiekens,Tiatto and Dickov and a whole host of other's like Dunne are all a very important part of our history but untill we start winning or atleast competing for honour's, i don't feel you can have a true legend.

Although if there had to be one for each decade then the Goat would be my choice but as much as i loved the guy in 20-30 years he'll only be remembered by us, where as Lee,Bell and Summerbee will be remembered by all and that for me is a real LEGEND.

I disagree with the part in bold, its like saying matt le tiss isnt a legend at southampton and clubs that dont win anything dont have any legends basically that only leaves the top 4 in england that are allowed legends, we won the championship but were not allowed have legends from that time?what about lower league clubs who win these divisions are they not entitled to have any legend players?

I do however agree with you in respect people have different opinions on what a legend is, mines pretty complicated to explain in words but yes i would class dunne as a city legend, someone who gave his all for a long period, someone who i could relate to, someone who i knew would more often than not dig us out of the shit, someone who did the club proud, someone who when having a debate in the pub you could say "weall at least we have x whos better than what you have in that position regardless of whther were shit or not" and so on, im supporting city around 16years, we haent had many quality players to look up to in that period, someone who as a kid i wanted to be on the street, as a defender dunne was that man, dickov also, kinky aswell sometimes if i was feeling fancy!!! My point been in a couple of years when i look back on my time as a city fan i will class dunne and a few others as legends as they are all i know....

I just feel that real legend's are more than the Dunne's, Goater's etc. NQDP summed it up best with "cult heroes" for me that is the difference. When rivals throughout the league and beyond are looking at a player and saying "wish we had him" or "what a player he is" like a Messi, Torres, etc.

In my eyes there the true legends and like Tokyo said, in our whole history we probably have around a dozen legit legends, Le tiss was a great player and probably regarded as a legend but the majority of stand out players in poor teams are imo cult heroes bar the odd exception as the real superstar's in Cl and trophy winning teams are the ones who will be remembered.

I think perhaps we're confusing the point here between club legends & everyone's football legends. Football legends are people like Bobby Moore etcr, legends to all supporters. Our true football legends are Bell,Lee,Summerbee, Trautmann etc.

Our club legends are more numerous because they're judged by our standards not everyone elses. The Goat 's contribution to us for example, when we were in the shit, brought us back from oblivion & imo makes him as inportant to the club as Colin Bell even though Bell was a different class. Most of the players since the Goat's era however have just performed at a mediocre level, been shit one week & good the next, let us down as much as they've succeeded, have no impact on the history of the club & aren't worth bothering about imo.

[crossan]

Roy Paul,Bill Leivers,Paul Power,Bobby Johnstone,Harry Dowd,Tony Book............to name but a few.
However Legends are those individual City fans see in their lifetime.

[Patrick]

You know maybe goat was more cult than legend - I stand corrected

[rick1894citizen]

I didn't start going till late 90's and there hasn't been one LEGEND in that time, my opinion obviously but term legend is used too often and far too lightly.

Horlock,Morrison,Wiekens,Tiatto and Dickov and a whole host of other's like Dunne are all a very important part of our history but untill we start winning or atleast competing for honour's, i don't feel you can have a true legend.

Although if there had to be one for each decade then the Goat would be my choice but as much as i loved the guy in 20-30 years he'll only be remembered by us, where as Lee,Bell and Summerbee will be remembered by all and that for me is a real LEGEND.

I disagree with the part in bold, its like saying matt le tiss isnt a legend at southampton and clubs that dont win anything dont have any legends basically that only leaves the top 4 in england that are allowed legends, we won the championship but were not allowed have legends from that time?what about lower league clubs who win these divisions are they not entitled to have any legend players?

I do however agree with you in respect people have different opinions on what a legend is, mines pretty complicated to explain in words but yes i would class dunne as a city legend, someone who gave his all for a long period, someone who i could relate to, someone who i knew would more often than not dig us out of the shit, someone who did the club proud, someone who when having a debate in the pub you could say "weall at least we have x whos better than what you have in that position regardless of whther were shit or not" and so on, im supporting city around 16years, we haent had many quality players to look up to in that period, someone who as a kid i wanted to be on the street, as a defender dunne was that man, dickov also, kinky aswell sometimes if i was feeling fancy!!! My point been in a couple of years when i look back on my time as a city fan i will class dunne and a few others as legends as they are all i know....

I just feel that real legend's are more than the Dunne's, Goater's etc. NQDP summed it up best with "cult heroes" for me that is the difference. When rivals throughout the league and beyond are looking at a player and saying "wish we had him" or "what a player he is" like a Messi, Torres, etc.

In my eyes there the true legends and like Tokyo said, in our whole history we probably have around a dozen legit legends, Le tiss was a great player and probably regarded as a legend but the majority of stand out players in poor teams are imo cult heroes bar the odd exception as the real superstar's in Cl and trophy winning teams are the ones who will be remembered.

I think perhaps we're confusing the point here between club legends & everyone's football legends. Football legends are people like Bobby Moore etcr, legends to all supporters. Our true football legends are Bell,Lee,Summerbee, Trautmann etc.

Our club legends are more numerous because they're judged by our standards not everyone elses. The Goat 's contribution to us for example, when we were in the shit, brought us back from oblivion & imo makes him as inportant to the club as Colin Bell even though Bell was a different class. Most of the players since the Goat's era however have just performed at a mediocre level, been shit one week & good the next, let us down as much as they've succeeded, have no impact on the history of the club & aren't worth bothering about imo.

Suppose it's all about what you class as a legend and like you say club legends and football legends, it's a good topic to debate as most would have the same top 6 or so and the rest is all about opinions.

Like i said earlier the Goat was a real cult hero and played his part but just wouldn't feel right having say the following next to eachother (for me anyway)

Billy Meredith (didn't he have spell with the rags too) Colin the king, Buzzer, Lee, Tueart?, Doyle?, Trautmann.

? probably other more influential players from further back or even that era.

Richard Dunne, Goater, Dickov, even Rosler, Kinky and Quinn don't seem as Legendary as those.

Maybe thery would have to be split into tiers with the top dogs being the obvious and including other's like all time top score, caps most successful captain, then other's who have had a huge part in our history whether it being when as a club we were rock bottom or on the way up.

Either way it's a great topic Patrick and maybe the older (possibly wiser but not sure on that :) poster's could put their feelings of past and more recent "legends" into perspective as i can only go off books, films and stories of my old man but know for sure if he and undoubtedly most other blues had to pick one it would be the west stand's real name.