Dunne's Half-Time Pint wrote:Fidel Castro wrote:Dunne's Half-Time Pint wrote:Fidel Castro wrote:Sorry, but all this talk of trophies decide how good a player is bollocks. Lee Sharpe, Nicky fuclin Butt, Paul Parker, Tim Sherwood, Chris Sutton, Quentin Fortune have all won more trophies than a lot of our players. So therefore they are better players by default?
Going round in circles here.
Alright - as this is how debate is supposed to work - I concede. You are all absolutely correct.
We have better players than U***d in every position (except possibly Vidic?).
Trophies/Previous League position (points)/Appearances (inc. International)/Individual Honours/Industry Perceptions etc. are not good indicators as to individual players' abilities. In fact they are misleading, David May and Henning Berg were both obviously shit (relative to the players playing in the division at that time) - the league was won in spite of them. Kleberson has won a World Cup and a Premier League yet he is not fit to lace Mikel Arteta's boots. In fact, U***d have consistently won loads in spite of the majority of their unfashionable players - who are all shit because we don't like them (making Bacon some sort of "Wizard"?).
So what does everyone predict this season? 2nd? I assume we'll finish behind Chelsea because they have Deco and Ballack (that Frank Lampard is shit though yeah?).
I'd say Sar, Evra, Vidic, Wio and Rooney are probably better players than our players in their position. You don't win things by having 11 great individuals, it's a team game. I think we have a team on par with scum, but maybe they are a better collective? I agree with some points, but think you should judge a player yourself by watching him, form your own opinion. Trophies could be used as an indicator, but you don't win trophies individually. So I do partially agree with you, just think your putting too much emphasis on honours
If you'd read everything I wrote I don't think you'd have formed that impression. Honours - along with league position - are a very good indicator. That's all I've said.
I watch a lot of football - but I miss twice as much - so when I think "that Arsenal side are world beaters" the best way for me to know if i'm right is to look at where they are at the end of the season - what they've won - if they're not where I expected then I adjust/qualify my impression.
I knwo it's easy to get carried away with the players we watch week in and week out - we love them - but the best example I can think of is SWP. I thought he was top - frighteningly good - unplayable at times. He goes to Chelsea and failed to make an impact, under arguably the most effective manager in the game (RESULTS/TROPHIES - THE VERY MEASURE NQDP et al. APPLIED TO HUGHES TO CLAIM HE WAS NOT GOOD ENOUGH), that meant I was wrong about how good he was. He's a good player, I love him, but he's not proven he's a great player. Someone who goes to a club which challenges for honours, gets in the side, stays in the side, and then they win trophies... i think that's a pretty good indicator.
Absolutely no comparison between rating players and managers. There are 25 players in squad with everyone having a role to play. Some bigger than others. To win things you don't have to have 25 world class players.
Rags for instance in recent years have had players like Tranaldo, Vidic and Van Der Sar who have guaranteed them titles. In process Wes Brown has won titles as well but I wouldn't say they have won titles because of Brown but more like despite him. Years before that they had Scholes and Giggs in their prime. Before that there were k***e and Beckscum. Before that there were Cuntona and Schmeichel. In their treble winning team there were also players like Jordi Cruyff, David May, John Curtis, Nicky Butt, Wes Brown and Jesper Blomqvist making contributions. Did you think they were world class? Or better than say Ireland, Barry, Lescott, Adebayor etc even if we don't win anything?
However managers are completely different thing. There's (usually) only one manager calling the shots. He decides who plays, how side plays, how they train, which players they buy, which players they sell, what they eat, how they warm up, where they sleep night before games, how he treats players, how he stamps his authority and so and so on and so on. One man. This is THE most important person in the club and he NEEDS to be world class if you are looking for world class results. To make it simple for you, average or poor managers will do nothing (finish 10th) with good players, whereas good manager can get the best out of average set of players.