Ireland or Rooney

Here is the place to talk about all things city and football!

Re: Ireland or Rooney

Postby Ted Hughes » Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:32 pm

Dunne's Half-Time Pint wrote:
Niall Quinns Discopants wrote:
Dunne's Half-Time Pint wrote:You're just saying words with no regard for the facts - an absurd series of statements.



Facts? Football if game of opinions and I see all sorts here about the players we support, never mind players of other clubs. You'd prefer Rio Ferdinand to Joleon Lescott. I don't. There are managers and owners and players and supporters who'd agree with you and there'd be some who'd agree with me.

Why would you even bother comparing our last season's performances with the players we had last season to rags team in same period of time, I will never know. We have spend hundreds of millions since and cleared some deadwood in process so the spine of the team that started this season is completely different to one that ended last season. And you can see that from results.

And then you say that you'd prefer Fletcher and Carrick over Ireland and Barry and what little case you were building there went straight out of the window. That is one of the most bizarre statements I've ever read here and there have been many good competitors for that title.


It's a game of league positions and trophies. It's a game of points and RESULTS. all of these things are facts.
I detailed what we'd spent our hundreds of millions on - 4th, 5th ,6th and a rag substitute - you've ignored it.

And I don't think we can see all that much from 4 results (one league cup) any more than I did last season!


Here's some more facts - you can think they are a biazrre coincidence, a freak occurrence, a quirk of fate - presumably you think they fly in the face of all you know to be true, but they are the facts:

Fletcher: * Premier League (3): 2006–07, 2007–08, 2008–09
* FA Cup (1): 2003–04
* Football League Cup (1): 2005–06
* FA Community Shield (3): 2003, 2007, 2008
* UEFA Champions League (1): 2007–08
* FIFA Club World Cup (1): 2008
Carrick: * Premier League (3): 2006–07, 2007–08, 2008–09
* FA Community Shield (2): 2007, 2008
* UEFA Champions League (1): 2007–08
* FIFA Club World Cup (1): 2008

Barry: Intertoto Cup Winners 2001
Ireland:................

Do I wish our players had those sorts of honours: YES
Do I think it's delusional to talk of our players as better until they've done anything, anything at all, to prove it: certainly.

and to be absolutely clear - I don't think there is a single manager or pundit in World football who would prefer Lescott to Rio. not one.


So would it also not be delusional to talk about Fletcher & Carrick as being better unless you could compare them playing in sides of the calibre of City & Villa or does it only work one way ie; your way? Did the contribution of Ronaldo & Tevez not affect those records & are you sure Barry/Ireland wouldn't have won those trophies if they'd been playing in place of Fletcher & Carrick in that side? Will they be as successful without Ronaldo & Tevez & with Giggs/Scholes on their last legs? Or perhaps you think the current Utd side is just as strong?
The pissartist formerly known as Ted

VIVA EL CITY !!!

Some take the bible for what it's worth.. when they say that the rags shall inherit the Earth...
Well I heard that the Sheikh... bought Carlos Tevez this week...& you fuckers aint gettin' nothin..
Ted Hughes
Donated to the site
Donated to the site
Colin Bell's Football Brain
 
Posts: 28488
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:28 pm
Supporter of: Bill Turnbull
My favourite player is: Bill Turnbull

Re: Ireland or Rooney

Postby Niall Quinns Discopants » Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:34 pm

Alex Sapphire wrote:
Niall Quinns Discopants wrote:And then you say that you'd prefer Fletcher and Carrick over Ireland and Barry ... That is one of the most bizarre statements I've ever read here and there have been many good competitors for that title.


almost on a par with

Niall Quinns Discopants wrote:I've never rated Ferdinand half as high as most people. Very errorprone and has been lucky to play all his career alongside more reliable centerbacks. I'd take Lescott


Not quite though.
Sometimes we're good and sometimes we're bad but when we're good, at least we're much better than we used to be and when we are bad we're just as bad as we always used to be, so that's got to be good hasn't it?


Mark Radcliffe
User avatar
Niall Quinns Discopants
Donated to the site
Donated to the site
Anna Connell's Vision
 
Posts: 40255
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2005 1:19 pm
Location: Deep in the pimp game
Supporter of: Holistic approach
My favourite player is: Bishop Magic Don Juan

Re: Ireland or Rooney

Postby Dunne's Half-Time Pint » Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:37 pm

ronk wrote:Even then what's he done that's so special.


Wayne Rooney [United 161(69); England 55(25)]:

Premier League: 2006–07, 2007–08, 2008–09
FA Community Shield: 2007
Football League Cup: 2005–06
UEFA Champions League: 2007–08
FIFA Club World Cup: 2008

Leo Messi [Barca 109(54); Arg 41 (12)]

La Liga (3): 2004–2005, 2005–2006, 2008–2009
Copa del Rey (1): 2008–2009
UEFA Champions League (2): 2005–2006, 2008–2009
Supercopa de España (3): 2005, 2006, 2009
UEFA Super Cup (1): 2009

Christiano Ronaldo [United 196(84); Portugal 65 (22)]
Premier League: 2006–07, 2007–08, 2008–09
FA Cup: 2003–04
League Cup: 2005–06, 2008–09
FA Community Shield: 2007
UEFA Champions League: 2007–08
FIFA Club World Cup: 2008

Name anyone - anyone - under the age of 25 who can boast anything like a comparable CV to those three.

This strictly empirical approach to football arguments makes it a lot easier really.
All we are saying is give Doug a pass.
Dunne's Half-Time Pint
David Silva's Silky Skills
 
Posts: 6679
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2006 5:37 pm
Location: Leeds/Manchester

Re: Ireland or Rooney

Postby Dunne's Half-Time Pint » Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:54 pm

Ted Hughes wrote:
So would it also not be delusional to talk about Fletcher & Carrick as being better unless you could compare them playing in sides of the calibre of City & Villa or does it only work one way ie; your way? Did the contribution of Ronaldo & Tevez not affect those records & are you sure Barry/Ireland wouldn't have won those trophies if they'd been playing in place of Fletcher & Carrick in that side? Will they be as successful without Ronaldo & Tevez & with Giggs/Scholes on their last legs? Or perhaps you think the current Utd side is just as strong?


Barry was available when Carrick was bought for £18m - they've won the league every year since they signed him - i'm not a massive believer in luck or coincidences. It looks like that was a shrewd decision.
Ireland - who is only 10 months younger than Rooney - was johning around in a wig and being driven to Sunderland etc.
Your riposte... but he's come on leaps and bounds since then. This is true - he looked brilliant last season in an average side. Fletcher was integral in a Championship winning side - it's as though people formed their impression of him 3 seasons ago (when he was quite shit) and aren't prepared to change it. Fact: he's come on leaps and bounds too.

And of course Ronaldo contributed to their records - just as they did to his. The reality is - as we're seeing with our most faithful players past, academy graduates etc. there isn't room for excess sentimentality in football - especially not in a Prem winning side. If they weren't good enough they would have been moved on/fucked it up for the rags - that's not what happened.

If they were any where near as bad as you seem to think then they wouldn't have played the part they did - and if our boys are anywhere near as good as you think they're going to have to prove it.

Finally, of course I hope the current United side is not as strong. No, I do not think that they are. But it beggars belief to just discount the players' records (theres and ours) for last 3 years and start claiming we're better: We have to prove it - over the course of an entire season - not just our opening 3 games. And they have to prove it - again - but there is nothing ridiculous/delusional about using last season as a starting point for a realistic assessment.

Last season we were 10th and they won the league - I hope we close that gap, but I don't expect some mad reversal. What do you expect?
All we are saying is give Doug a pass.
Dunne's Half-Time Pint
David Silva's Silky Skills
 
Posts: 6679
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2006 5:37 pm
Location: Leeds/Manchester

Re: Ireland or Rooney

Postby ronk » Thu Sep 10, 2009 2:00 pm

Dunne's Half-Time Pint wrote:
ronk wrote:Even then what's he done that's so special.


Wayne Rooney [U***d 161(69); England 55(25)]:

Premier League: 2006–07, 2007–08, 2008–09
FA Community Shield: 2007
Football League Cup: 2005–06
UEFA Champions League: 2007–08
FIFA Club World Cup: 2008

Leo Messi [Barca 109(54); Arg 41 (12)]

La Liga (3): 2004–2005, 2005–2006, 2008–2009
Copa del Rey (1): 2008–2009
UEFA Champions League (2): 2005–2006, 2008–2009
Supercopa de España (3): 2005, 2006, 2009
UEFA Super Cup (1): 2009

Christiano Ronaldo [U***d 196(84); Portugal 65 (22)]
Premier League: 2006–07, 2007–08, 2008–09
FA Cup: 2003–04
League Cup: 2005–06, 2008–09
FA Community Shield: 2007
UEFA Champions League: 2007–08
FIFA Club World Cup: 2008

Name anyone - anyone - under the age of 25 who can boast anything like a comparable CV to those three.

This strictly empirical approach to football arguments makes it a lot easier really.


Yes, but I'd rather be right that have an easy argument. Good players play in good teams because they are good players. A good player should look like a good player in a bad team. A bad player can look like a good player in a good team.

Any player on those teams will have comparable stats.
“Do onto others — then run!”
B. Hill
User avatar
ronk
Shaun Goater's 103 Goals
 
Posts: 7501
Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 12:23 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Ireland or Rooney

Postby Dunne's Half-Time Pint » Thu Sep 10, 2009 2:04 pm

Niall Quinns Discopants wrote:
Alex Sapphire wrote:
Niall Quinns Discopants wrote:And then you say that you'd prefer Fletcher and Carrick over Ireland and Barry ... That is one of the most bizarre statements I've ever read here and there have been many good competitors for that title.


almost on a par with

Niall Quinns Discopants wrote:I've never rated Ferdinand half as high as most people. Very errorprone and has been lucky to play all his career alongside more reliable centerbacks. I'd take Lescott


Not quite though.


Joleon Lescott - 27 years old.
2000–2006 Wolverhampton Wanderers 169 (8)
2006-2009 Everton 113 (14)

England (2007-): 7 (0)

Honours: N/A.
Individual: N/A

Rio Ferdinand - 30 years old.
1995–2000 West Ham United 127 (2)
2000–2002 Leeds United 54 (2)
2002– Manchester United 208 (6)

England (1997-): England 74 (3)

Honours:
Premier League: 2002–03, 2006–07, 2007–08, 2008–09
Football League Cup: 2006, 2009
FA Community Shield: 2003, 2007, 2008
UEFA Champions League: 2007–08
FIFA Club World Cup: 2008

Individual:
PFA Premier League Team of the Year: 2001–02 (Leeds), 2004–05, 2006–07, 2007–08, 2008–09 (Manchester United)
FIFPro World XI: 2007–08

Your statement is completely divorced from reality - a penchant you revealed long ago.
All we are saying is give Doug a pass.
Dunne's Half-Time Pint
David Silva's Silky Skills
 
Posts: 6679
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2006 5:37 pm
Location: Leeds/Manchester

Re: Ireland or Rooney

Postby Alex Sapphire » Thu Sep 10, 2009 2:07 pm

In fairness Lescott did make the Championship Team of the season once and is a former Wolves Player of the Season
Never criticise a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes.
That way when you do criticise him you'll be a mile away.
And you'll have his shoes.


Ἄνδρες γάρ πόλις, καί οὐ τείχη
User avatar
Alex Sapphire
Joe Hart's 29 Clean Sheets
 
Posts: 5758
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2006 10:02 am

Re: Ireland or Rooney

Postby Dunne's Half-Time Pint » Thu Sep 10, 2009 2:19 pm

ronk wrote:
Dunne's Half-Time Pint wrote:
This strictly empirical approach to football arguments makes it a lot easier really.


Yes, but I'd rather be right that have an easy argument. a) Good players play in good teams because they are good players. b) A good player should look like a good player in a bad team. c) A bad player can look like a good player in a good team.

Any player on those teams will have comparable stats.


Colours to the mast: what do you think I'm wrong about?

a) true - the very proposition I support - further evidenced by the "comparable stats".
b) contingent but not necessary - Riquelme for instance would look utter shit in plenty of sides - not relevant to (a) or (c) - certainly not part of any logical progression/argument from (a) to (c).
c) that only reconciles with (a) to a certain point - then it becomes logically inconsistent - how many of these bad players can fit into a good side which, necessarily, consists of good players before it becomes a bad side? (in which by (b), presumably, the good players would look good?)

edit: i've not touched the main body - but is the conclusion of (c) what we have? cos Ireland certainly looks good, as do lots of our players... although we don't have any bad players (because our players are man-to-man better than the players in a good (title winning) side) which must mean we're a good side... but we havent won anything?
Last edited by Dunne's Half-Time Pint on Thu Sep 10, 2009 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
All we are saying is give Doug a pass.
Dunne's Half-Time Pint
David Silva's Silky Skills
 
Posts: 6679
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2006 5:37 pm
Location: Leeds/Manchester

Re: Ireland or Rooney

Postby Ted Hughes » Thu Sep 10, 2009 2:24 pm

Dunne's Half-Time Pint wrote:
Ted Hughes wrote:
So would it also not be delusional to talk about Fletcher & Carrick as being better unless you could compare them playing in sides of the calibre of City & Villa or does it only work one way ie; your way? Did the contribution of Ronaldo & Tevez not affect those records & are you sure Barry/Ireland wouldn't have won those trophies if they'd been playing in place of Fletcher & Carrick in that side? Will they be as successful without Ronaldo & Tevez & with Giggs/Scholes on their last legs? Or perhaps you think the current Utd side is just as strong?


Barry was available when Carrick was bought for £18m - they've won the league every year since they signed him - i'm not a massive believer in luck or coincidences. It looks like that was a shrewd decision.
Ireland - who is only 10 months younger than Rooney - was johning around in a wig and being driven to Sunderland etc.
Your riposte... but he's come on leaps and bounds since then. This is true - he looked brilliant last season in an average side. Fletcher was integral in a Championship winning side - it's as though people formed their impression of him 3 seasons ago (when he was quite shit) and aren't prepared to change it. Fact: he's come on leaps and bounds too.

And of course Ronaldo contributed to their records - just as they did to his. The reality is - as we're seeing with our most faithful players past, academy graduates etc. there isn't room for excess sentimentality in football - especially not in a Prem winning side. If they weren't good enough they would have been moved on/fucked it up for the rags - that's not what happened.

If they were any where near as bad as you seem to think then they wouldn't have played the part they did - and if our boys are anywhere near as good as you think they're going to have to prove it.

Finally, of course I hope the current U***d side is not as strong. No, I do not think that they are. But it beggars belief to just discount the players' records (theres and ours) for last 3 years and start claiming we're better: We have to prove it - over the course of an entire season - not just our opening 3 games. And they have to prove it - again - but there is nothing ridiculous/delusional about using last season as a starting point for a realistic assessment.

Last season we were 10th and they won the league - I hope we close that gap, but I don't expect some mad reversal. What do you expect?



I didn't say they were bad. Their strongest team, on a good day, is still a formidable opponent. It's as much to do with time & confidence as players though. I think they have a big advantage over us in that their team has been together longer, particularly the defence & that people are scared of them & often shit out in the big moments. We don't have that effect on teams, yet.

If they lose some of the fear factor though, some teams will knock them over this season. If not, they'll be near the top again. Otherwise I think our squad is miles miles better & that every single player in it would get games for Utd in preference to many, in fact most, of the players they have now. Rooney, Vidic, Ferdinand, Evra are the only players I would consider starting in our 1st 11 & I'd probably pick Toure anyway. None of the rags I know rate Fletcher & Carrick higher than Barry & Ireland. None rate Berbatov better than Ade or Tevez. None rate Nani or Park full stop. All know Giggs & Scholes are only good for a few games. Evans gets a few plaudits but not from Vlad Weiss. O Shea is rated as shite, Anderson not sure. Owen not sure.

A few years ago they rated 1 to 11 as the best.

If they want to stay ahead of us they'll have to spend money or bring through fantastic youngsters because sooner or later our team & in particular our defence will become a unit, just as 'together' as them & imo we have much better options & are more like the strength of squad they used to be rather than what they are now.
The pissartist formerly known as Ted

VIVA EL CITY !!!

Some take the bible for what it's worth.. when they say that the rags shall inherit the Earth...
Well I heard that the Sheikh... bought Carlos Tevez this week...& you fuckers aint gettin' nothin..
Ted Hughes
Donated to the site
Donated to the site
Colin Bell's Football Brain
 
Posts: 28488
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:28 pm
Supporter of: Bill Turnbull
My favourite player is: Bill Turnbull

Re: Ireland or Rooney

Postby Alex Sapphire » Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:03 pm

Niall Quinns Discopants wrote:
Why would you even bother comparing our last season's performances with the players we had last season to rags team in same period of time, I will never know. We have spend hundreds of millions since and cleared some deadwood in process so the spine of the team that started this season is completely different to one that ended last season. And you can see that from results.
.


we should look forward to Saturday's game then.
Our team strengthened, Arsenal weakened.
Expect to radically improve on last year's 3 nil or they'll be baying for Hughes's blood
Last edited by Alex Sapphire on Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Never criticise a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes.
That way when you do criticise him you'll be a mile away.
And you'll have his shoes.


Ἄνδρες γάρ πόλις, καί οὐ τείχη
User avatar
Alex Sapphire
Joe Hart's 29 Clean Sheets
 
Posts: 5758
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2006 10:02 am

Re: Ireland or Rooney

Postby Sister of fu » Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:12 pm

ronk wrote:
Sister of fu wrote:I have found this thread rather amusing......roll back less than 14 months ago and many (Some on here) wanted Stevie out of the door, he has his first really good consistent season and all of a sudden we are putting him on par with world class players. Stevie is not yet in the Gerard/ Lampard type mould as Gerard/ Lampard has been at it at a high level for years season in and season out, but could be if and its a big if, he carries on in the same vein as last year. One decent season does not make you a world class player so some need to take the blue rimmed glasses off.

I know lots on here don’t have a lot of love for Rooney but the guy is class. Does know one recall the Euros when he got injured and England did not look like the same team. I can assure you I will be extremely happy if he is out for the derby as he does have a knack of scoring the odd goal or two against us and I would rather face a rag 11 without him present.


You shouldn't measure a board by the worst posters. None of the posters worth listening to here wanted rid of him. There are people on the board who want to get rid of Robinho and who didn't think Adebayor was a good player.

Sometimes we get too close to a subject to be objective, it happens to pretty much every football fan. Sometimes people just aren't a good reader of the game.

That can apply to City fans who don't rate Shrek and it can equally apply to people who think that Beckham (though a good player) is or was the best player in the world. England inflate players so sometimes people end up thinking that they're better than they are.

Rooney is going through an excellent vein of form at the moment but what exactly has he done that's so special? He's on a goalscoring run that's comparable to Peter Crouch pre the last World Cup. He's England's best forward in a strong team, he's not their best player. Even then what's he done that's so special. He scored a tap into an empty goal to turn a 4-1 into a 5-1 yesterday. He scored 2 against Andorra and Slovakia and Kazakhstan. He'd have to be playing badly not to have scored 7 or 8 goals in qualifying for England so far.




He has been a very important part of Man U winning many many trophies. What has Peter Crouch won???

IMO its quite embarrassing saying were are better than then man for man and i would not have him playing for us or him. I think the comparisons can start if City win something. Like it or not Manchester United are one of the best teams in world football and we are long way off that at the moment. I think we need to be a little more realistic and maybe compare to teams around us like Spuds, Everton and Villa.

If i had to choose between Robbie up front and Rooney im sorry it would be Rooney everyday for me. He is robust, tough, good footballer, passionate, hard-working,skillfull and an eye for goal, pretty much everything you want in a front man.

Are people really saying that if City came out tomo and said he is to be our new No9 they would say no??

Also the last time i looked you don't win trophys with eleven Ronaldos. For every Ronaldo there is a Darren Fletcher of this world and all great teams have the so called anti-flare players that do a job that needs to be done. Fletcher being one of them. I don't think he is as bad as some of you make out and is an easy target for abuse. Are we saying that Fergie has got it all wrong and that Fletcher should not even get in a pub team??

I personally would love the rags to crumble put i don't see it just yet.
Sister of fu
Joe Hart's 29 Clean Sheets
 
Posts: 5770
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:44 am
Location: Manchester
Gender: Female
Supporter of: Manchester City
My favourite player is: Uwe Rosler

Re: Ireland or Rooney

Postby ronk » Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:39 pm

Dunne's Half-Time Pint wrote:
ronk wrote:
Dunne's Half-Time Pint wrote:
This strictly empirical approach to football arguments makes it a lot easier really.


Yes, but I'd rather be right that have an easy argument. a) Good players play in good teams because they are good players. b) A good player should look like a good player in a bad team. c) A bad player can look like a good player in a good team.

Any player on those teams will have comparable stats.


Colours to the mast: what do you think I'm wrong about?

a) true - the very proposition I support - further evidenced by the "comparable stats".
b) contingent but not necessary - Riquelme for instance would look utter shit in plenty of sides - not relevant to (a) or (c) - certainly not part of any logical progression/argument from (a) to (c).
c) that only reconciles with (a) to a certain point - then it becomes logically inconsistent - how many of these bad players can fit into a good side which, necessarily, consists of good players before it becomes a bad side? (in which by (b), presumably, the good players would look good?)

edit: i've not touched the main body - but is the conclusion of (c) what we have? cos Ireland certainly looks good, as do lots of our players... although we don't have any bad players (because our players are man-to-man better than the players in a good (title winning) side) which must mean we're a good side... but we havent won anything?


Causality, you failed to establish causality. I could draw a scatter graph empirically demonstrating that the best attended teams were the best performing teams, especially if I focused on performance at home. I could then try and claim that playing in a bigger stadium in front of more of your fans is the reason that some teams are successful. It helps but I don't think people are going to delude themselves into thinking that if Wigan played in front of 70k fans regularly (all other things being equal) that they'd win the league or come close.

You're trying to use the fact that Fletcher has more medals than Ireland to determine who is the better player. Is a player who plays for the scum automatically a better player than one who plays for us. Is Valencia a better player now that he plays for them or does he have to wait until he wins something? Is Rooney a better player than Torres because the scum won the league and made it to a CL final? Is Berbatov (he was more expensive)?

It's a subjective measure but at the same time it's still the best measure. You have to look at him on the pitch and decide who the better player is. That's the only real comparison that actually means anything.

If we want to use the example of Fletcher it's worth pointing out that the scum midfield was generally regarded as the weakest part of their team. It was often the reason they didn't do better in games where they didn't do well. Fletcher was only playing due to Hargreaves being missing. He's normally not 1st choice. They frequently ended up relying on an ageing Giggs and Scholes. I'm not disputing that Fletcher is a good player (he's certainly a very good backup/squad player), but at the same time it's clear that Ireland is also a good player.

Regarding your very last point, you're switching tenses. You talk about the squad and players who we have now while then bringing up what we've won in the past. Having a good squad in the present does not mean that we had a good squad in the past. United haven't won anything this season without Ronaldo and Tevez. We've won all our games. Does that make de Jong better than Anderson next Christmas?
“Do onto others — then run!”
B. Hill
User avatar
ronk
Shaun Goater's 103 Goals
 
Posts: 7501
Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 12:23 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Ireland or Rooney

Postby Dunne's Half-Time Pint » Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:43 pm

I've made it absolutely clear that I don't think this season offers any meaningful point of comparison - there have been 3/4 games - we will see.
All we are saying is give Doug a pass.
Dunne's Half-Time Pint
David Silva's Silky Skills
 
Posts: 6679
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2006 5:37 pm
Location: Leeds/Manchester

Re: Ireland or Rooney

Postby edge275 » Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:52 pm

Dunne's Half-Time Pint wrote:
Niall Quinns Discopants wrote:
Alex Sapphire wrote:
Niall Quinns Discopants wrote:And then you say that you'd prefer Fletcher and Carrick over Ireland and Barry ... That is one of the most bizarre statements I've ever read here and there have been many good competitors for that title.


almost on a par with

Niall Quinns Discopants wrote:I've never rated Ferdinand half as high as most people. Very errorprone and has been lucky to play all his career alongside more reliable centerbacks. I'd take Lescott


Not quite though.


Joleon Lescott - 27 years old.
2000–2006 Wolverhampton Wanderers 169 (8)
2006-2009 Everton 113 (14)

England (2007-): 7 (0)

Honours: N/A.
Individual: N/A

Rio Ferdinand - 30 years old.
1995–2000 West Ham U***d 127 (2)
2000–2002 Leeds U***d 54 (2)
2002– Manchester U***d 208 (6)

England (1997-): England 74 (3)

Honours:
Premier League: 2002–03, 2006–07, 2007–08, 2008–09
Football League Cup: 2006, 2009
FA Community Shield: 2003, 2007, 2008
UEFA Champions League: 2007–08
FIFA Club World Cup: 2008

Individual:
PFA Premier League Team of the Year: 2001–02 (Leeds), 2004–05, 2006–07, 2007–08, 2008–09 (Manchester U***d)
FIFPro World XI: 2007–08

Your statement is completely divorced from reality - a penchant you revealed long ago.


Djimi Traore

Liverpool

* League Cup: 2000-01
* FA Cup: 2000-01
* UEFA Cup: 2000-01
* UEFA Super Cup: 2000-01
* FA Community Shield: 2001-02
* Football League Cup: 2002-03
* UEFA Champions League: 2004-05
* FA Cup: 2005-06


Kleberson

Honours

* Atlético Paranaense
o Paraná State League: 2000, 2001, 2002 (Superchampionship)
o Brazilian Championship: 2001

* Manchester United
o FA Community Shield: 2003
o FA Cup: 2004

* Beşiktaş
o Turkish Cup: 2006

* Flamengo
o Taça Guanabara: 2008
o Taça Rio: 2009
o Rio de Janeiro State League: 2008, 2009

International

* FIFA World Cup: 2002
* FIFA Confederations Cup: 2009
* Copa América: 2004


Geremi

Club

Real Madrid

* UEFA Champions League Winner: 2000, 2002
* La Liga Winner: 2000-2001
* Supercopa de España Winner: 2001

Chelsea

* Premier League Winner: 2005-2006
* FA Community Shield Winner: 2005

Country

* Olympic Gold Medal: 2000
* Africa Cup of Nations Winner: 2000, 2002



Based on DHTP's analysis sign the above up ASAP.
"Like all bullies, they've just found out that there is a much bigger guy in town, someone who is richer and more powerful than their worst nightmare. And this smiling Arabic assassin is intent on stealing all the treasures they've nicked off everyone else, and pulverising them into commercial and footballing oblivion as he does so."
User avatar
edge275
pot noodle style supporter
Joe Hart's 29 Clean Sheets
 
Posts: 5675
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 3:43 am
Location: Amsterdam
Supporter of: Manchester City
My favourite player is: Mike Lingo

Re: Ireland or Rooney

Postby Dunne's Half-Time Pint » Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:56 pm

edge275 wrote:

Based on DHTP's analysis sign the above up ASAP.


do you think that Lescott is better than Rio?
do you think medals/honours are an indicator of ability (i.e. generally won by good players) or not?
All we are saying is give Doug a pass.
Dunne's Half-Time Pint
David Silva's Silky Skills
 
Posts: 6679
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2006 5:37 pm
Location: Leeds/Manchester

Re: Ireland or Rooney

Postby edge275 » Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:57 pm

Dunne's Half-Time Pint wrote:
edge275 wrote:

Based on DHTP's analysis sign the above up ASAP.


do you think that Lescott is better than Rio?
do you think medals/honours are an indicator of ability (i.e. generally won by good players) or not?


No I do not think Lescott is better than Rio, and I do agree that medals/honours are an indicator but not stonewall fact.
"Like all bullies, they've just found out that there is a much bigger guy in town, someone who is richer and more powerful than their worst nightmare. And this smiling Arabic assassin is intent on stealing all the treasures they've nicked off everyone else, and pulverising them into commercial and footballing oblivion as he does so."
User avatar
edge275
pot noodle style supporter
Joe Hart's 29 Clean Sheets
 
Posts: 5675
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 3:43 am
Location: Amsterdam
Supporter of: Manchester City
My favourite player is: Mike Lingo

Re: Ireland or Rooney

Postby Dunne's Half-Time Pint » Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:01 pm

edge275 wrote:
Dunne's Half-Time Pint wrote:
edge275 wrote:

Based on DHTP's analysis sign the above up ASAP.


do you think that Lescott is better than Rio?
do you think medals/honours are an indicator of ability (i.e. generally won by good players) or not?


No I do not think Lescott is better than Rio, and I do agree that medals/honours are an indicator but not stonewall fact.


when i referred to them as "facts" I meant only the fact of having won them, akin to the fact of how many appearances/goals/caps players have - all of which are further indicators of a player's ability.
It doesn't strike me as a coincidence that the 3 best under-24s in Europe have incomparable CVs to their peers.
All we are saying is give Doug a pass.
Dunne's Half-Time Pint
David Silva's Silky Skills
 
Posts: 6679
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2006 5:37 pm
Location: Leeds/Manchester

Re: Ireland or Rooney

Postby Ted Hughes » Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:07 pm

We could do with a few of these as well


Phil Neville

Premier League (6): 1995-96, 1996-97, 1998-99, 1999-2000, 2000-01, 2002-03
FA Cup (3): 1995-96, 1998-99, 2003-04
FA Community Shield (3): 1996, 1997, 2003
UEFA Champions League (1): 1998-99
Intercontinental Cup (1): 1999


Nicky Butt

Premier League (6): 1995–96, 1996–97, 1998–99, 1999–2000, 2000–01, 2002–03
FA Cup (3): 1995–96, 1998–99, 2003–04
FA Community Shield (3): 1996, 1997, 2003
UEFA Champions League (1): 1998–99
Intercontinental Cup (1): 1999


Nani

Premier League (2): 2007–08, 2008–09
Football League Cup (1): 2008–09
FA Community Shield (2): 2007, 2008
UEFA Champions League (1): 2007–08
FIFA Club World Cup (1): 2008

Anderson


Premier League (2): 2007–08, 2008–09
Football League Cup (1): 2008–09
UEFA Champions League (1): 2007–08
FIFA Club World Cup (1): 2008

John O Shea

Premier League (4): 2002–03, 2006–07, 2007–08, 2008–09
FA Cup (1): 2003–04
Football League Cup (2): 2005–06, 2008-09
FA Community Shield (3): 2003, 2007, 2008
UEFA Champions League (1): 2007–08
FIFA Club World Cup (1): 2008
The pissartist formerly known as Ted

VIVA EL CITY !!!

Some take the bible for what it's worth.. when they say that the rags shall inherit the Earth...
Well I heard that the Sheikh... bought Carlos Tevez this week...& you fuckers aint gettin' nothin..
Ted Hughes
Donated to the site
Donated to the site
Colin Bell's Football Brain
 
Posts: 28488
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:28 pm
Supporter of: Bill Turnbull
My favourite player is: Bill Turnbull

Re: Ireland or Rooney

Postby edge275 » Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:10 pm

Dunne's Half-Time Pint wrote:
edge275 wrote:
Dunne's Half-Time Pint wrote:
edge275 wrote:

Based on DHTP's analysis sign the above up ASAP.


do you think that Lescott is better than Rio?
do you think medals/honours are an indicator of ability (i.e. generally won by good players) or not?


No I do not think Lescott is better than Rio, and I do agree that medals/honours are an indicator but not stonewall fact.


when i referred to them as "facts" I meant only the fact of having won them, akin to the fact of how many appearances/goals/caps players have - all of which are further indicators of a player's ability.
It doesn't strike me as a coincidence that the 3 best under-24s in Europe have incomparable CVs to their peers.


I honestly believe we have both a first team and a squad that's comparable to the rags.

The two things they have advantage over us is that they have the winning mentality drilled into them and an excellent manager (I hate to say it).

I would choose Given ahead of Van Der Sar. Right back is iffy as to whether I'd have Brown, Richards or Zabaleta.

Their centre backs are better than ours but not by a large amount. Evra is better than Bridge.

I would put Barry and Ireland ahead of Fletcher and Carrick and I would put Robinho ahead Nani. SWP is better than Valencia.

Adebayor is better than Berbatov and Rooney is better than Tevez.

Overall we have better midfielders, they have better defenders and about equal in strikers.
"Like all bullies, they've just found out that there is a much bigger guy in town, someone who is richer and more powerful than their worst nightmare. And this smiling Arabic assassin is intent on stealing all the treasures they've nicked off everyone else, and pulverising them into commercial and footballing oblivion as he does so."
User avatar
edge275
pot noodle style supporter
Joe Hart's 29 Clean Sheets
 
Posts: 5675
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 3:43 am
Location: Amsterdam
Supporter of: Manchester City
My favourite player is: Mike Lingo

Re: Ireland or Rooney

Postby Dunne's Half-Time Pint » Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:13 pm

Ted Hughes wrote:We could do with a few of these as well


Phil Neville

Premier League (6): 1995-96, 1996-97, 1998-99, 1999-2000, 2000-01, 2002-03
FA Cup (3): 1995-96, 1998-99, 2003-04
FA Community Shield (3): 1996, 1997, 2003
UEFA Champions League (1): 1998-99
Intercontinental Cup (1): 1999


Nicky Butt

Premier League (6): 1995–96, 1996–97, 1998–99, 1999–2000, 2000–01, 2002–03
FA Cup (3): 1995–96, 1998–99, 2003–04
FA Community Shield (3): 1996, 1997, 2003
UEFA Champions League (1): 1998–99
Intercontinental Cup (1): 1999


Nani

Premier League (2): 2007–08, 2008–09
Football League Cup (1): 2008–09
FA Community Shield (2): 2007, 2008
UEFA Champions League (1): 2007–08
FIFA Club World Cup (1): 2008

Anderson


Premier League (2): 2007–08, 2008–09
Football League Cup (1): 2008–09
UEFA Champions League (1): 2007–08
FIFA Club World Cup (1): 2008

John O Shea

Premier League (4): 2002–03, 2006–07, 2007–08, 2008–09
FA Cup (1): 2003–04
Football League Cup (2): 2005–06, 2008-09
FA Community Shield (3): 2003, 2007, 2008
UEFA Champions League (1): 2007–08
FIFA Club World Cup (1): 2008


great riff.
chances are butt and neville would've improved us between 95 and 2003 though.
Nani and Anderson have made less than 85 appearances between them - league and cup - I'm not suggesting you don't take things like this into account - in fact, i've suggested that people do.
O'Shea gets a hard time, but do you honestly think he's shit?

do you think the rags have won so much in spite of the majority of their players?
All we are saying is give Doug a pass.
Dunne's Half-Time Pint
David Silva's Silky Skills
 
Posts: 6679
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2006 5:37 pm
Location: Leeds/Manchester

PreviousNext

Return to The Maine Football forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: carolina-blue, Majestic-12 [Bot], Scatman and 243 guests