Ireland or Rooney

[gillie]

Sorry Dunnie mate i realised after i posted what you meant but it was too late as i had submitted it and moved onto another thread.

[HuntCast]

Well, FFS, this is a waste of time. How you look on paper, when you compare individual skills (real or imagined) makes not one bit of difference on the pitch. How you play as a TEAM should be the only concern, and points at the end is the only measurement that matters.
Put it this way... do you not think that SWP on the pitch for City makes some sort of intangible difference compared to running out any old player we could pick up with similar stats? Morale, leadership, and flair count too, don't they? Who can say what effect removing Shrek from their lineup would have on those intangibles for them?
After playing both team and individual sports in my lifetime, I have often wondered if we give enough credit to these things.
Fabio Capello could pick a team from everyones reserve squad, room them in dormitory's, then throw them out together on the practice field every week for a year, and as a team, they would probably kick the shit out of anyone else's international squad.

[King Kev]

KK i despise the scouse twat that is r**ney but without him the rags are fucked so he must be better than just good.

They used to win stuff before he joined them, and they will probably continue to win stuff after he leaves them.

[Alex Sapphire]

I can think of a couple of ways to compare a forward and a midfielder.
One is the ACTIM Index which while Stephen was 15 places above Wayne last season (his best by a mile) currently has Ireland 30 places below the granny banger.
T'other is the judgement of fellow professionals (PFA) who twice voted Rooney Young Player of the Year.
Oh and the view of England Official fans voting on the FA's website made him England's player of the year 2008, but what do they know?
And yes I am aware that FAI will not be bestowing a similar honour on our Stevie.
I confess I don't play games on computers, so don't have access to all that knowledge, so I tend to trust the opinion of people who work and play in the industry.
I also confess that while I watch and admire Stevie as often as I can, I rarely have a strong enough stomach (or justification) to cast eyes on the pig snouted, barrel chested slime snot that is shrek. As a result, week in week out Stevie is obviously the best player in my world. Brilliant and I love him.
Outside of my bubble however there's a reality that we shouldn't really ignore.
We do not have 10 better starters than the rags and Superman is not yet "better" than shrek.
Which is why I am not betting my house on us achieving a higher league position than "them" this year and neither I suspect is anyone "who knows anything about football".

[Niall Quinns Discopants]

I can think of a couple of ways to compare a forward and a midfielder.
One is the ACTIM Index which while Stephen was 15 places above Wayne last season (his best by a mile) currently has Ireland 30 places below the granny banger.
T'other is the judgement of fellow professionals (PFA) who twice voted Rooney Young Player of the Year.
Oh and the view of England Official fans voting on the FA's website made him England's player of the year 2008, but what do they know?
And yes I am aware that FAI will not be bestowing a similar honour on our Stevie.
I confess I don't play games on computers, so don't have access to all that knowledge, so I tend to trust the opinion of people who work and play in the industry.
I also confess that while I watch and admire Stevie as often as I can, I rarely have a strong enough stomach (or justification) to cast eyes on the pig snouted, barrel chested slime snot that is shrek. As a result, week in week out Stevie is obviously the best player in my world. Brilliant and I love him.
Outside of my bubble however there's a reality that we shouldn't really ignore.
We do not have 10 better starters than the rags and Superman is not yet "better" than shrek.
Which is why I am not betting my house on us achieving a higher league position than "them" this year and neither I suspect is anyone "who knows anything about football".

Is that so? If I look purely individual skill, I'd say only Vidic is better than what we have got.

Van Der Sar vs Given ---> I'd have Given although admittedly it's close
Chuckle 1 vs Zabaleta ----> I'd have Mad Zabba
Vidic vs Toure ---> Vidic takes this round
Ferdinand vs Lescott ----> I've never rated Ferdinand half as high as most people. Very errorprone and has been lucky to play all his career alongside more reliable centerbacks. I'd take Lescott
Nani vs SWP ----> Only a fucking rag lover would say Nani
Fletcher vs Ireland ----->HAHAHAHHAA
Carrick vs Barry ----> Barry much better allround player
Giggs vs Robinho ----> Fairly clear don't you think?
Berbatov vs Adebayor ---> Comes down to personal preference but Adebayor is miles more active. Ade for me
Rooney vs Tevez ----> Again, comes down to what you are looking for in grafter striker. Pretty much same quality imo

[Scatman]

I can think of a couple of ways to compare a forward and a midfielder.
One is the ACTIM Index which while Stephen was 15 places above Wayne last season (his best by a mile) currently has Ireland 30 places below the granny banger.
T'other is the judgement of fellow professionals (PFA) who twice voted Rooney Young Player of the Year.
Oh and the view of England Official fans voting on the FA's website made him England's player of the year 2008, but what do they know?
And yes I am aware that FAI will not be bestowing a similar honour on our Stevie.
I confess I don't play games on computers, so don't have access to all that knowledge, so I tend to trust the opinion of people who work and play in the industry.
I also confess that while I watch and admire Stevie as often as I can, I rarely have a strong enough stomach (or justification) to cast eyes on the pig snouted, barrel chested slime snot that is shrek. As a result, week in week out Stevie is obviously the best player in my world. Brilliant and I love him.
Outside of my bubble however there's a reality that we shouldn't really ignore.
We do not have 10 better starters than the rags and Superman is not yet "better" than shrek.
Which is why I am not betting my house on us achieving a higher league position than "them" this year and neither I suspect is anyone "who knows anything about football".

Is that so? If I look purely individual skill, I'd say only Vidic is better than what we have got.

Van Der Sar vs Given ---> I'd have Given although admittedly it's close
Chuckle 1 vs Zabaleta ----> I'd have Mad Zabba
Vidic vs Toure ---> Vidic takes this round
Ferdinand vs Lescott ----> I've never rated Ferdinand half as high as most people. Very errorprone and has been lucky to play all his career alongside more reliable centerbacks. I'd take Lescott
Nani vs SWP ----> Only a fucking rag lover would say Nani
Fletcher vs Ireland ----->HAHAHAHHAA
Carrick vs Barry ----> Barry much better allround player
Giggs vs Robinho ----> Fairly clear don't you think?
Berbatov vs Adebayor ---> Comes down to personal preference but Adebayor is miles more active. Ade for me
Rooney vs Tevez ----> Again, comes down to what you are looking for in grafter striker. Pretty much same quality imo

and if we don't win the league it clearly is the managers fault

[Alex Sapphire]

Is that so? If I look purely individual skill, I'd say only Vidic is better than what we have got.

Van Der Sar vs Given ---> I'd have Given although admittedly it's close
Chuckle 1 vs Zabaleta ----> I'd have Mad Zabba
Vidic vs Toure ---> Vidic takes this round
Ferdinand vs Lescott ----> I've never rated Ferdinand half as high as most people. Very errorprone and has been lucky to play all his career alongside more reliable centerbacks. I'd take Lescott
Nani vs SWP ----> Only a fucking rag lover would say Nani
Fletcher vs Ireland ----->HAHAHAHHAA
Carrick vs Barry ----> Barry much better allround player
Giggs vs Robinho ----> Fairly clear don't you think?
Berbatov vs Adebayor ---> Comes down to personal preference but Adebayor is miles more active. Ade for me
Rooney vs Tevez ----> Again, comes down to what you are looking for in grafter striker. Pretty much same quality imo

mmm
so you give it 8-1-1. That seems pretty hard to believe, but doesn't disprove my "we haven't got 10 better starters" statement..

being a bit picky:
Brown v Richards: ask Capello
Ferdinand v Lescott: ditto
Evra seems to be missing from your analysis?

so unless you think you have more insight than Fabio, could you not compromise on 5-4-1 and agree we don't have 10 better starters?

[Niall Quinns Discopants]

Is that so? If I look purely individual skill, I'd say only Vidic is better than what we have got.

Van Der Sar vs Given ---> I'd have Given although admittedly it's close
Chuckle 1 vs Zabaleta ----> I'd have Mad Zabba
Vidic vs Toure ---> Vidic takes this round
Ferdinand vs Lescott ----> I've never rated Ferdinand half as high as most people. Very errorprone and has been lucky to play all his career alongside more reliable centerbacks. I'd take Lescott
Nani vs SWP ----> Only a fucking rag lover would say Nani
Fletcher vs Ireland ----->HAHAHAHHAA
Carrick vs Barry ----> Barry much better allround player
Giggs vs Robinho ----> Fairly clear don't you think?
Berbatov vs Adebayor ---> Comes down to personal preference but Adebayor is miles more active. Ade for me
Rooney vs Tevez ----> Again, comes down to what you are looking for in grafter striker. Pretty much same quality imo

mmm
so you give it 8-1-1. That seems pretty hard to believe, but doesn't disprove my "we haven't got 10 better starters" statement..

being a bit picky:
Brown v Richards: ask Capello
Ferdinand v Lescott: ditto
Evra seems to be missing from your analysis?

so unless you think you have more insight than Fabio, could you not compromise on 5-4-1 and agree we don't have 10 better starters?

Evra vs Bridge ---> Bridge is better player in my opinion. Although this a close one.

And I don't ask Cappello's opinion when forming mine. Just like I didn't ask Graham Taylor's or Steve McClaren's opinion about anything.

My point is that our starting line up is individually every bit as good as rag's

[Alex Sapphire]

My point is that our starting line up is individually every bit as good as rag's

i thought your point was that I was incorrect when I said "we do not have 10 better starters than the rags".

[Niall Quinns Discopants]

My point is that our starting line up is individually every bit as good as rag's

i thought your point was that I was incorrect when I said "we do not have 10 better starters than the rags".

9 better starters, one as good and one nearly as good. I'd say your statement is debatable at very least.

[Ted Hughes]

Imo Evra is better than bridge but not hugely so, Vidic is normally better than Lescott but not looked great this season, Rooney is better than Tevez. Every other position I'd prefer our 1st 11 players but also I'd rate Bellamy, RSC, Zabba, VK, Johnson & Weiss as better than their direct competitors in rags 1st 11 team assuming all are fit. Giggs & Scholes on the top of their game are superior but they can only manage a few such games per season. Berbatov for Spurs was quality but not for rags.

Rags have a huge advantage in that they've played together a lot more & it IS a huge advantage. That's diminishing with each game. Without new signings we'll overtake them in the near future.

[Dunne's Half-Time Pint]

My point is that our starting line up is individually every bit as good as rag's

i thought your point was that I was incorrect when I said "we do not have 10 better starters than the rags".

9 better starters, one as good and one nearly as good. I'd say your statement is debatable at very least.

You're just saying words with no regard for the facts - an absurd series of statements.

If we can agree that last season is the only sensible way to make our player judgments (because it is), then it's brutally apparent that the rags' players are better than ours. 40 odd points better.
We've made some astute additions, but from the clubs who finished 4th,5th and 6th - those players haven't won a trophy since 2001-2(?) if at all. We've also bought one of the rags' substitutes...

The fallacy is that they were a one man team last year. Yes, he did provide the focal point of their attack... but united did the double over every team outside the top 8 - based on clean sheets - their core is still very much stronger than ours, it's the thing which largely stops their opponents from playing football and allows them so much consistency - they will have to explore other attacking variations this season, but that core is intact:

Van Der Sar
Brown/O'shea Vidic Rio Evra
Carrick
Fletcher .......
....... Rooney ..........

If we take our core to be:

Given
Richards Toure Lescott Bridge
Barry
......... Ireland ..........
Adebayor .........

Then the difference should be pretty stark to all but the toppest of top top blues. None of our back 4 gets in their side. Their GK has organisational experience and a CV that Shay, superb though he can be, cannot dream of matching - 130 caps for Holland, 7 league titles, 12 cup competitions (including 2 champion's leagues), plus a host of individual honours; that experience of winning and keeping clean sheets cannot be underestimated and does not happen by accident - I can't wait for him to retire.

Barry and Carrick are not the same player and do not play the same role - it is very difficult to compare them on individual merits - Capello prefers Barry in his system, but Carrick has won back-to-back-to-back leagues since joining the rags - hardly a coincidence when so much of their play, and the areas they control, is dictated by his passing and movement (which is superior to Barry's).
I'd say Ireland and Barry should be looked at cumulatively alongside Fletcher and Carrick - now I know which two I prefer, I know how everyone is going to react, but the cold hard fact is 2 of those players have been the natural starters in back-back Champion's league finals (bans obv.) - it would be naive as fuck to think that they were not there on merit.
We're in the same position as Liverpool were last year - absolutely convinced that our midfield 2 (theirs was Xabi and Mascherano) is the best but a long way from proving it... I hope that we can, but until they do it on the pitch (over the course of the entire Premiership season) then it is frankly deluded to say that they're there now.

Rooney is better than Adebayor.

[ronk]

Given kept Newcastle in the prem for years. They've had excuses for proper defences for years but somehow got by. He kept them in the game. They were finished when he left.

[Dunne's Half-Time Pint]

Given kept Newcastle in the prem for years. They've had excuses for proper defences for years but somehow got by. He kept them in the game. They were finished when he left.

For how many years?
1997 (the year before he joined) - 2nd
1998 - 13th
1999 - 13th
2000 - 11th
2001 - 11th
2002 - 4th
2003 - 3rd
2004 - 5th
2005 - 14th
2006 - 7th
2007 - 13th
2008 - 12th

which of those years would you pin-point as the ones where Shay "kept them in the Premiership"?
I'm saying he's good, very good, but his record does not match Van Der Sar's any more than his organisational ability does.

[Niall Quinns Discopants]

My point is that our starting line up is individually every bit as good as rag's

i thought your point was that I was incorrect when I said "we do not have 10 better starters than the rags".

9 better starters, one as good and one nearly as good. I'd say your statement is debatable at very least.

You're just saying words with no regard for the facts - an absurd series of statements.

Facts? Football if game of opinions and I see all sorts here about the players we support, never mind players of other clubs. You'd prefer Rio Ferdinand to Joleon Lescott. I don't. There are managers and owners and players and supporters who'd agree with you and there'd be some who'd agree with me.

Why would you even bother comparing our last season's performances with the players we had last season to rags team in same period of time, I will never know. We have spend hundreds of millions since and cleared some deadwood in process so the spine of the team that started this season is completely different to one that ended last season. And you can see that from results.

And then you say that you'd prefer Fletcher and Carrick over Ireland and Barry and what little case you were building there went straight out of the window. That is one of the most bizarre statements I've ever read here and there have been many good competitors for that title.

[Alex Sapphire]

And then you say that you'd prefer Fletcher and Carrick over Ireland and Barry ... That is one of the most bizarre statements I've ever read here and there have been many good competitors for that title.

almost on a par with

I've never rated Ferdinand half as high as most people. Very errorprone and has been lucky to play all his career alongside more reliable centerbacks. I'd take Lescott

[Dunne's Half-Time Pint]

You're just saying words with no regard for the facts - an absurd series of statements.

Facts? Football if game of opinions and I see all sorts here about the players we support, never mind players of other clubs. You'd prefer Rio Ferdinand to Joleon Lescott. I don't. There are managers and owners and players and supporters who'd agree with you and there'd be some who'd agree with me.

Why would you even bother comparing our last season's performances with the players we had last season to rags team in same period of time, I will never know. We have spend hundreds of millions since and cleared some deadwood in process so the spine of the team that started this season is completely different to one that ended last season. And you can see that from results.

And then you say that you'd prefer Fletcher and Carrick over Ireland and Barry and what little case you were building there went straight out of the window. That is one of the most bizarre statements I've ever read here and there have been many good competitors for that title.

It's a game of league positions and trophies. It's a game of points and RESULTS. all of these things are facts.
I detailed what we'd spent our hundreds of millions on - 4th, 5th ,6th and a rag substitute - you've ignored it.

And I don't think we can see all that much from 4 results (one league cup) any more than I did last season!


Here's some more facts - you can think they are a biazrre coincidence, a freak occurrence, a quirk of fate - presumably you think they fly in the face of all you know to be true, but they are the facts:

Fletcher: * Premier League (3): 2006–07, 2007–08, 2008–09
* FA Cup (1): 2003–04
* Football League Cup (1): 2005–06
* FA Community Shield (3): 2003, 2007, 2008
* UEFA Champions League (1): 2007–08
* FIFA Club World Cup (1): 2008
Carrick: * Premier League (3): 2006–07, 2007–08, 2008–09
* FA Community Shield (2): 2007, 2008
* UEFA Champions League (1): 2007–08
* FIFA Club World Cup (1): 2008

Barry: Intertoto Cup Winners 2001
Ireland:................

Do I wish our players had those sorts of honours: YES
Do I think it's delusional to talk of our players as better until they've done anything, anything at all, to prove it: certainly.

and to be absolutely clear - I don't think there is a single manager or pundit in World football who would prefer Lescott to Rio. not one.

[Sister of fu]

I have found this thread rather amusing......roll back less than 14 months ago and many (Some on here) wanted Stevie out of the door, he has his first really good consistent season and all of a sudden we are putting him on par with world class players. Stevie is not yet in the Gerard/ Lampard type mould as Gerard/ Lampard has been at it at a high level for years season in and season out, but could be if and its a big if, he carries on in the same vein as last year. One decent season does not make you a world class player so some need to take the blue rimmed glasses off.

I know lots on here don’t have a lot of love for Rooney but the guy is class. Does know one recall the Euros when he got injured and England did not look like the same team. I can assure you I will be extremely happy if he is out for the derby as he does have a knack of scoring the odd goal or two against us and I would rather face a rag 11 without him present.

[Hazy]

Ireland on development is twice the player he was and will get better.Rooney is class and Like Ireland tons more to come both great players for the next 5yrs. great topic.

[ronk]

I have found this thread rather amusing......roll back less than 14 months ago and many (Some on here) wanted Stevie out of the door, he has his first really good consistent season and all of a sudden we are putting him on par with world class players. Stevie is not yet in the Gerard/ Lampard type mould as Gerard/ Lampard has been at it at a high level for years season in and season out, but could be if and its a big if, he carries on in the same vein as last year. One decent season does not make you a world class player so some need to take the blue rimmed glasses off.

I know lots on here don’t have a lot of love for Rooney but the guy is class. Does know one recall the Euros when he got injured and England did not look like the same team. I can assure you I will be extremely happy if he is out for the derby as he does have a knack of scoring the odd goal or two against us and I would rather face a rag 11 without him present.

You shouldn't measure a board by the worst posters. None of the posters worth listening to here wanted rid of him. There are people on the board who want to get rid of Robinho and who didn't think Adebayor was a good player.

Sometimes we get too close to a subject to be objective, it happens to pretty much every football fan. Sometimes people just aren't a good reader of the game.

That can apply to City fans who don't rate Shrek and it can equally apply to people who think that Beckham (though a good player) is or was the best player in the world. England inflate players so sometimes people end up thinking that they're better than they are.

Rooney is going through an excellent vein of form at the moment but what exactly has he done that's so special? He's on a goalscoring run that's comparable to Peter Crouch pre the last World Cup. He's England's best forward in a strong team, he's not their best player. Even then what's he done that's so special. He scored a tap into an empty goal to turn a 4-1 into a 5-1 yesterday. He scored 2 against Andorra and Slovakia and Kazakhstan. He'd have to be playing badly not to have scored 7 or 8 goals in qualifying for England so far.