Ireland or Rooney

[ronk]

I've made it absolutely clear that I don't think this season offers any meaningful point of comparison - there have been 3/4 games - we will see.

No. You said it and then contradicted yourself. This team has only been together for a few matches. If you're not willing to judge them on their record so far (perfectly reasonably IMO) then stick to it and don't turn around and dismiss a claim that we're a good side because we haven't won anything yet.

[Dunne's Half-Time Pint]

I've made it absolutely clear that I don't think this season offers any meaningful point of comparison - there have been 3/4 games - we will see.

No. You said it and then contradicted yourself. This team has only been together for a few matches. If you're not willing to judge them on their record so far (perfectly reasonably IMO) then stick to it and don't turn around and dismiss a claim that we're a good side because we haven't won anything yet.

quote the two contradictory statements and i'll apologise and clarify.

[ronk]

I've made it absolutely clear that I don't think this season offers any meaningful point of comparison - there have been 3/4 games - we will see.

No. You said it and then contradicted yourself. This team has only been together for a few matches. If you're not willing to judge them on their record so far (perfectly reasonably IMO) then stick to it and don't turn around and dismiss a claim that we're a good side because we haven't won anything yet.

quote the two contradictory statements and i'll apologise and clarify.

If we can agree that last season is the only sensible way to make our player judgments (because it is), then it's brutally apparent that the rags' players are better than ours. 40 odd points better.

although we don't have any bad players (because our players are man-to-man better than the players in a good (title winning) side) which must mean we're a good side... but we havent won anything?

That's twice you've stated that the rag's team is better than ours because their team last year was better, despite us strengthening considerably and them losing 2 of their star names. Using last season's squads to compare is hopelessly out of date.

[Dunne's Half-Time Pint]

I've made it absolutely clear that I don't think this season offers any meaningful point of comparison - there have been 3/4 games - we will see.

No. You said it and then contradicted yourself. This team has only been together for a few matches. If you're not willing to judge them on their record so far (perfectly reasonably IMO) then stick to it and don't turn around and dismiss a claim that we're a good side because we haven't won anything yet.

quote the two contradictory statements and i'll apologise and clarify.

If we can agree that last season is the only sensible way to make our player judgments (because it is), then it's brutally apparent that the rags' players are better than ours. 40 odd points better.

although we don't have any bad players (because our players are man-to-man better than the players in a good (title winning) side) which must mean we're a good side... but we havent won anything?

That's twice you've stated that the rag's team is better than ours because their team last year was better, despite us strengthening considerably and them losing 2 of their star names. Using last season's squads to compare is hopelessly out of date.

ooh - that's a bad miss!

second quote - as I'm sure you're aware - is really very facetious. nothing more than an aside really. I don't think that we have man-for-man better players - i think that it's absurd to claim otherwise.

And is everyone going to wilfully ignore my point regarding our signings - which I've made twice now - they come from the 4th, 5th and 6th place sides in the league. They don't have a trophy between them since 03-04. Exception, as i've said, is Tevez - a substitute/squad man who the rags were not prepared to meet a high valuation for.

and there's no real inconsistency: i think (as i've said) that last season is the best reference point for player assessments. If you think you've learned enough from the 4 games we've/they've played this year to throw away comparisons made over the last 3 years then fair enough - I think that would be ridiculous.

[Ted Hughes]

We could do with a few of these as well


Phil Neville

Premier League (6): 1995-96, 1996-97, 1998-99, 1999-2000, 2000-01, 2002-03
FA Cup (3): 1995-96, 1998-99, 2003-04
FA Community Shield (3): 1996, 1997, 2003
UEFA Champions League (1): 1998-99
Intercontinental Cup (1): 1999


Nicky Butt

Premier League (6): 1995–96, 1996–97, 1998–99, 1999–2000, 2000–01, 2002–03
FA Cup (3): 1995–96, 1998–99, 2003–04
FA Community Shield (3): 1996, 1997, 2003
UEFA Champions League (1): 1998–99
Intercontinental Cup (1): 1999


Nani

Premier League (2): 2007–08, 2008–09
Football League Cup (1): 2008–09
FA Community Shield (2): 2007, 2008
UEFA Champions League (1): 2007–08
FIFA Club World Cup (1): 2008

Anderson


Premier League (2): 2007–08, 2008–09
Football League Cup (1): 2008–09
UEFA Champions League (1): 2007–08
FIFA Club World Cup (1): 2008

John O Shea

Premier League (4): 2002–03, 2006–07, 2007–08, 2008–09
FA Cup (1): 2003–04
Football League Cup (2): 2005–06, 2008-09
FA Community Shield (3): 2003, 2007, 2008
UEFA Champions League (1): 2007–08
FIFA Club World Cup (1): 2008

great riff.
chances are butt and neville would've improved us between 95 and 2003 though.
Nani and Anderson have made less than 85 appearances between them - league and cup - I'm not suggesting you don't take things like this into account - in fact, i've suggested that people do.
O'Shea gets a hard time, but do you honestly think he's shit?

do you think the rags have won so much in spite of the majority of their players?

The point is; most of Utd's squad now consists of Andersons & Nani's. Other than Rooney, their best forwards are Giggs & Scholes who are close to retirement. Berbatov has been a disaster, Owen-has been.

I do think John O Shea is shit btw yes, very very shit.

The current rags team hasn't won stuff in spite of it's players no; the current rags team has won fuck all. The teams that won things had most of the squad they've got now + younger Giggs/Scholes + people like Ronaldo & Tevez which adds up to between 30 odd & 60 odd goals without counting assists. If Owen gets 60 goals & a bucketful of assists then the rags team will be of similar standard to 2 years ago but still not quite as good.

The fear this mob inspires is quite incredible. Could any team in the history of football swap Ronaldo & Tevez for Owen & Valencia & still have people thinking they're uncatchable? It's like Best Law & Charlton without Best & Law! If this belief in them is an example of how people will play against them then they've got a goal start in most games.

They have a top class defence, ok midfield & Rooney. This rags team hasn't won anything. It's the worst they've had since they finished below City. If they win the league, everyone else in it wants shooting.

[ronk]

And is everyone going to wilfully ignore my point regarding our signings - which I've made twice now - they come from the 4th, 5th and 6th place sides in the league. They don't have a trophy between them since 03-04. Exception, as i've said, is Tevez - a substitute/squad man who the rags were not prepared to meet a high valuation for.

3 points:

The Lions Tour in rugby took the best players from 4 sides, none of which were in the top3 in the world and make a single stronger team to take on South Africa, the best team in the world at the moment. It is indeed possible to take the best players from teams that came 4th, 5th and 6th and try to come 4th, or higher. The interest in Barry from Liverpool was well known, clearly he was considered good enough for them. That really only leaves Lescott. Can we agree that he's top4 material based on watching him play?

Further evidence that such a strategy works can be gleaned by examining the rags' squad. Notice the way they went around buying Tevez from West Ham, Berbatov, Carrick from Spurs, Rooney from Everton, Ferdinand from Leeds. How did they make themselves a better team buying players from weaker teams?

The scum are struggling for cash. They still tried to get Tevez in the end, they're desperate to get people believe that they rejected him. Fans were screaming out for him to be bought long term. They might tell you that they'd rather have Owen than Tevez, they'll laugh at you if you believe that though.

[Grob]

Rooney

Innit

[london blue 2]

DHTP has laid the cyber smack down. deal with it.

[Niall Quinns Discopants]

We could do with a few of these as well


Phil Neville

Premier League (6): 1995-96, 1996-97, 1998-99, 1999-2000, 2000-01, 2002-03
FA Cup (3): 1995-96, 1998-99, 2003-04
FA Community Shield (3): 1996, 1997, 2003
UEFA Champions League (1): 1998-99
Intercontinental Cup (1): 1999


Nicky Butt

Premier League (6): 1995–96, 1996–97, 1998–99, 1999–2000, 2000–01, 2002–03
FA Cup (3): 1995–96, 1998–99, 2003–04
FA Community Shield (3): 1996, 1997, 2003
UEFA Champions League (1): 1998–99
Intercontinental Cup (1): 1999


Nani

Premier League (2): 2007–08, 2008–09
Football League Cup (1): 2008–09
FA Community Shield (2): 2007, 2008
UEFA Champions League (1): 2007–08
FIFA Club World Cup (1): 2008

Anderson


Premier League (2): 2007–08, 2008–09
Football League Cup (1): 2008–09
UEFA Champions League (1): 2007–08
FIFA Club World Cup (1): 2008

John O Shea

Premier League (4): 2002–03, 2006–07, 2007–08, 2008–09
FA Cup (1): 2003–04
Football League Cup (2): 2005–06, 2008-09
FA Community Shield (3): 2003, 2007, 2008
UEFA Champions League (1): 2007–08
FIFA Club World Cup (1): 2008

exactly. With all our riches we might be able to attract David May as well. How great would that be?

[King Kev]

We could do with a few of these as well


Phil Neville

Premier League (6): 1995-96, 1996-97, 1998-99, 1999-2000, 2000-01, 2002-03
FA Cup (3): 1995-96, 1998-99, 2003-04
FA Community Shield (3): 1996, 1997, 2003
UEFA Champions League (1): 1998-99
Intercontinental Cup (1): 1999


Nicky Butt

Premier League (6): 1995–96, 1996–97, 1998–99, 1999–2000, 2000–01, 2002–03
FA Cup (3): 1995–96, 1998–99, 2003–04
FA Community Shield (3): 1996, 1997, 2003
UEFA Champions League (1): 1998–99
Intercontinental Cup (1): 1999


Nani

Premier League (2): 2007–08, 2008–09
Football League Cup (1): 2008–09
FA Community Shield (2): 2007, 2008
UEFA Champions League (1): 2007–08
FIFA Club World Cup (1): 2008

Anderson


Premier League (2): 2007–08, 2008–09
Football League Cup (1): 2008–09
UEFA Champions League (1): 2007–08
FIFA Club World Cup (1): 2008

John O Shea

Premier League (4): 2002–03, 2006–07, 2007–08, 2008–09
FA Cup (1): 2003–04
Football League Cup (2): 2005–06, 2008-09
FA Community Shield (3): 2003, 2007, 2008
UEFA Champions League (1): 2007–08
FIFA Club World Cup (1): 2008

Good point well made.

The idea that, if you win something you must be a good player, is laughable.

[Alex Sapphire]

We could do with a few of these as well


Phil Neville

Premier League (6): 1995-96, 1996-97, 1998-99, 1999-2000, 2000-01, 2002-03
FA Cup (3): 1995-96, 1998-99, 2003-04
FA Community Shield (3): 1996, 1997, 2003
UEFA Champions League (1): 1998-99
Intercontinental Cup (1): 1999


Nicky Butt

Premier League (6): 1995–96, 1996–97, 1998–99, 1999–2000, 2000–01, 2002–03
FA Cup (3): 1995–96, 1998–99, 2003–04
FA Community Shield (3): 1996, 1997, 2003
UEFA Champions League (1): 1998–99
Intercontinental Cup (1): 1999


Nani

Premier League (2): 2007–08, 2008–09
Football League Cup (1): 2008–09
FA Community Shield (2): 2007, 2008
UEFA Champions League (1): 2007–08
FIFA Club World Cup (1): 2008

Anderson


Premier League (2): 2007–08, 2008–09
Football League Cup (1): 2008–09
UEFA Champions League (1): 2007–08
FIFA Club World Cup (1): 2008

John O Shea

Premier League (4): 2002–03, 2006–07, 2007–08, 2008–09
FA Cup (1): 2003–04
Football League Cup (2): 2005–06, 2008-09
FA Community Shield (3): 2003, 2007, 2008
UEFA Champions League (1): 2007–08
FIFA Club World Cup (1): 2008

Good point well made.

The idea that, if you win something you must be a good player, is laughable.

although not as laughable as the claim that we are stronger than Utd in all but one position. For fooks sake don't anyone go spouting that shite in public. we'll be laughing stocks

[Alex Sapphire]

If they (Rags) win the league, everyone else in it wants shooting.

Ted
that rates as the stoopidest on topic statement I've ever read on here.

It sounds very much like you are predicting the complete downfall of the rags (worst squad since 1991- are you sure?), and while I dream of that day (having lived it before) I think you're being a bit premature

[Alex Sapphire]

The Lions Tour in rugby took the best players from 4 sides, none of which were in the top3 in the world and make a single stronger team to take on South Africa, the best team in the world at the moment. It is indeed possible to take the best players from teams that came 4th, 5th and 6th and try to come 4th, or higher.

3 points

the Lions lost

oh that's it

[Niall Quinns Discopants]

The idea that, if you win something you must be a good player, is laughable.

although not as laughable as the claim that we are stronger than Utd in all but one position. For fooks sake don't anyone go spouting that shite in public. we'll be laughing stocks

Yeah, what next? We'd actually be proud of the team? We can't have that surely.

[Alex Sapphire]

The idea that, if you win something you must be a good player, is laughable.

although not as laughable as the claim that we are stronger than Utd in all but one position. For fooks sake don't anyone go spouting that shite in public. we'll be laughing stocks

Yeah, what next? We'd actually be proud of the team? We can't have that surely.

Pride: what I feel for City. What I have pretty much always felt for City. Heightened now as we build a team capable of success, but balance by humility and realism.
Hubris: what a typical rag feels for the scum (and I hope never to suffer from). Loathsome. Goes hand in hand with conceit, arrogance, complacency, vanity, egotism, "vainglory"
Delusion: the giddy rush of blood to the head that we are suddenly and undeniably world beaters and that the achievements of others are worthless. The first step towards hubris

[Ted Hughes]

If they (Rags) win the league, everyone else in it wants shooting.

Ted
that rates as the stoopidest on topic statement I've ever read on here.

It sounds very much like you are predicting the complete downfall of the rags (worst squad since 1991- are you sure?), and while I dream of that day (having lived it before) I think you're being a bit premature

What do you think?

Rags squad 1992/93:

Beckham Blackmore Bruce Butt Cantona Dublin Giggs Gillespie
Hughes Ince Irwin Kanchelskis McClair Neville Pallister
Parker Phelan Robson Schmeichel Sharpe Wallace Webb
Beardsmore Blackmore Carey Ferguson Lawton Martin Walsh

Fucking good job we don't have to play them as, if the current bunch are so fantastic, then that lot would just be handed the league before the season started & we'd all have to grovel at their feet whilst begging to look up at their supreme wonderfulness.

Who could finish above such a side?

Blackburn fucking Rovers.

I haven't predicted anything whatsoever yet, in fact I've predicted that if the players in the PL are as badly taken in by the rag bullshit as you & one or two others then they'll win the league again. Why not sell Rooney too? If they won't miss Ronaldo & Tevez then why would they miss Rooney? Obviously any team they put out just wins it by default as everyone shits themselves at the sight of Nani, Valencia, Park Ji Sung & the new God; Darren fucking Fletcher.

I can always hope though that someday, someone will uncover the truth of the Emperor's new clothes.

PS re your latest post: Who's saying we're world beaters. We have a great squad that has to become a team. It's a better squad by far imo than there's but they already have a team.

[Niall Quinns Discopants]

If they (Rags) win the league, everyone else in it wants shooting.

Ted
that rates as the stoopidest on topic statement I've ever read on here.

It sounds very much like you are predicting the complete downfall of the rags (worst squad since 1991- are you sure?), and while I dream of that day (having lived it before) I think you're being a bit premature

What do you think?

Rags squad 1992/93:

Beckham Blackmore Bruce Butt Cantona Dublin Giggs Gillespie
Hughes Ince Irwin Kanchelskis McClair Neville Pallister
Parker Phelan Robson Schmeichel Sharpe Wallace Webb
Beardsmore Blackmore Carey Ferguson Lawton Martin Walsh

Fucking good job we don't have to play them as, if the current bunch are so fantastic, then that lot would just be handed the league before the season started & we'd all have to grovel at their feet whilst begging to look up at their supreme wonderfulness.

Who could finish above such a side?

Blackburn fucking Rovers.

I haven't predicted anything whatsoever yet, in fact I've predicted that if the players in the PL are as badly taken in by the rag bullshit as you & one or two others then they'll win the league again. Why not sell Rooney too? If they won't miss Ronaldo & Tevez then why would they miss Rooney? Obviously any team they put out just wins it by default as everyone shits themselves at the sight of Nani, Valencia, Park Ji Sung & the new God; Darren fucking Fletcher.

I can always hope though that someday, someone will uncover the truth of the Emperer's new clothes.

Again 100% spot on.
Despite hating them, I can admit when they have good sides but this current one simply isn't particularily outstanding. I loathed Tranaldo but truth is that his presence was HUGE part of their game. Even rag mate of mine admitted that these Valencia's and Park Ji Sung's are very average players compared to most of the players in the past (although oddly he seems to really rate Nani).

Personally I feel they have two truly top of the pile players in Vidic and Van Der Sar. Rooney is very good player but despite all the hype surrounding him I can't consider him to be truly world class. Let's face it, he scored less league goals last season than Robinho. Other than those three I don't see much more than (upper) midtable players who are well drilled by admittedly one of the best managers around (I need to wash my fingers).

[Ted Hughes]

If they (Rags) win the league, everyone else in it wants shooting.

Ted
that rates as the stoopidest on topic statement I've ever read on here.

It sounds very much like you are predicting the complete downfall of the rags (worst squad since 1991- are you sure?), and while I dream of that day (having lived it before) I think you're being a bit premature

What do you think?

Rags squad 1992/93:

Beckham Blackmore Bruce Butt Cantona Dublin Giggs Gillespie
Hughes Ince Irwin Kanchelskis McClair Neville Pallister
Parker Phelan Robson Schmeichel Sharpe Wallace Webb
Beardsmore Blackmore Carey Ferguson Lawton Martin Walsh

Fucking good job we don't have to play them as, if the current bunch are so fantastic, then that lot would just be handed the league before the season started & we'd all have to grovel at their feet whilst begging to look up at their supreme wonderfulness.

Who could finish above such a side?

Blackburn fucking Rovers.

I haven't predicted anything whatsoever yet, in fact I've predicted that if the players in the PL are as badly taken in by the rag bullshit as you & one or two others then they'll win the league again. Why not sell Rooney too? If they won't miss Ronaldo & Tevez then why would they miss Rooney? Obviously any team they put out just wins it by default as everyone shits themselves at the sight of Nani, Valencia, Park Ji Sung & the new God; Darren fucking Fletcher.

I can always hope though that someday, someone will uncover the truth of the Emperer's new clothes.

Again 100% spot on.
Despite hating them, I can admit when they have good sides but this current one simply isn't particularily outstanding. I loathed Tranaldo but truth is that his presence was HUGE part of their game. Even rag mate of mine admitted that these Valencia's and Park Ji Sung's are very average players compared to most of the players in the past (although oddly he seems to really rate Nani).

Personally I feel they have two truly top of the pile players in Vidic and Van Der Sar. Rooney is very good player but despite all the hype surrounding him I can't consider him to be truly world class. Let's face it, he scored less league goals last season than Robinho. Other than those three I don't see much more than (upper) midtable players who are well drilled by admittedly one of the best managers around (I need to wash my fingers).

This is the thing that does my head in. If you swapped our squad for theirs, everyone would be shitting themselves at the prospect of going to OT & facing Robinho, Adebayor, Tevez(?), SWP, Ireland + Weiss coming off the bench & even Bellamy. In the past they've always had a bunch of talented match winners. Now they have few & some of them are close to retirement.

They have a team unit more tried & tested at the moment & possibly the best PL defence so of course they're ahead of us in theory but why in God's name do we have to assume it will stay that way all season? Our potential is way above theirs even if they're a stronger unit now; which we'll find out next week. We'll get better & better win or lose though. How much can they improve?

[Fidel Castro]

Sorry, but all this talk of trophies decide how good a player is bollocks. Lee Sharpe, Nicky fuclin Butt, Paul Parker, Tim Sherwood, Chris Sutton, Quentin Fortune have all won more trophies than a lot of our players. So therefore they are better players by default?

[Rag_hater]

The wankfest over two average players in Barry and Ireland by some of the fans on this board is ridiculous.Two players who have won fuckall in their careers.