De Jong today

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Re: De Jong today

Postby Grob » Sun Sep 13, 2009 1:06 pm

Niall Quinns Discopants wrote:
Grob wrote:
Niall Quinns Discopants wrote:De Jong is absolutely nothing compared to super stars like Carrick and Fletcher.


and Rooney


Not the same position. Adebayor is nothing compared to Roonaldo.


You didnt mention position so i wasnt aware i could only go for scum midfielders.

Otherwise i would have said Anderson.

Saying Adebayor is nothing compared to Rooney (Roonaldo's a bit much) is a bit of a lose statement. Adebayor is as good in my opinion.
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Re: De Jong today

Postby Dunne's Half-Time Pint » Sun Sep 13, 2009 1:12 pm

People are going to miss my wicked De Jong v Arsenal/Makelele v Arsenal/Makelele v Chelsea chalkboards now.

If everyone could please just stick to page 2 of this thread that would be good. Thanks for your understanding.
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Re: De Jong today

Postby ronk » Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:34 am

Kippax wrote:Yep, I fall in the positive camp here.

Thought he had a very good game, given the territory of penalty spot to edge of our D on the half way line. I thought he coped very well considering it was his first premiership game this season and particuarly the quality of the opposition. Broke up play and put himself about. The Arsenal players knew he was out there today which counts for an awful lot.

His tracking and movement off the ball were very good as well which enabled him to be in the right place at the right time. Just hope this was picked up on TV. Wouldn't be too harsh on him giving the ball away so much, as his main job was to break up play and give the back four time and space to regroup.

Not brilliant but very good. lol

Kippax.

.


He didn't really give the ball away much. Tried to release players on the break a few times with quick through balls. Worth trying even if they didn't come off. Otherwise he was very assured in possession and contributed to us retaining the ball and being more comfortable passing it around.
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Re: De Jong today

Postby mcfc1632 » Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:01 am

Somebody else who was watching the same game as me - some others must have had a dodgy stream that showed a different match - or they simply do not understand the scope of the DM role and what marks a player as excellent in that role.

Interesting (and obvious as to why) Hughes brings him in for the game against Arsenal - and he will play against the rags - I suspect that Hughes when reviewing things this morning will fall into the positive camp as well - asked de jong to do a specific job - he did it really well - just a shame he did not do some step-overs so that he could be seen as effective to all the fans
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Re: De Jong today

Postby Grob » Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:50 am

I thought De Jong did quite well on saturday considering what he was up against. Arsenel are the best pass and move team in the country. Keeping track of their players when they are on song is a nightmare. He got around the pitch, closed down the play when it got near the final 3rd and gave us a good shape with his positioning.

De Jong is a better version of Gelson Fernandes. He's no Claude Makalele but Makalele was no Claude Maklele himself untill his late 20's and 30's. De Jong is 24.

What De Jong needs to work on his is quality of pass and the ability to begin attacks. His passing is below par predominenty. It doesnt matter how much he wins the ball if he continually gives it away.

Every squad needs a De Jong though, he'll be handy in situations like Saturday.

He's no world beater but a valuable squad member.
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Re: De Jong today

Postby Dunne's Half-Time Pint » Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:39 pm

Grob wrote:
De Jong is a better version of Gelson Fernandes. He's no Claude Makalele but Makalele was no Claude Maklele himself untill his late 20's and 30's. De Jong is 24.

What De Jong needs to work on his is quality of pass and the ability to begin attacks. His passing is below par predominenty. It doesnt matter how much he wins the ball if he continually gives it away.


De Jong is not a better version of Gelson: Gelson had zero discipline - the man ran round like a headless chicken. Positionally De Jong is very good.

You're very right about the development of that kind of player though/Makelele - I've said that above like - read of the game can only improve with vintage.

This "continually gives it away" thing is a myth though... certainly based on yesterday. De Jong made unsuccessful passes 6 times (out of 37); Barry 4 times (in open play - out of 25); Ireland 3 (out of only 12); SWP was 5 (out of 12); Richards 8 (of 20); and Bellamy 5 (of 23).

Bridge, Lescott and Toure were all superb though - only 6 misplaced passes between them (out of 66). Adebayor - bearing in mind how isolated he was at times - made 2 unsuccessful passes in the whole game (out of 22)... world class really.

So De Jong - who's made the most passes in the team - had 84% completion. That's identical to Barry (who made 1/3 fewer passes) and better as a percentage than everyone except the CBs, Adebayor and Bridge.
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Re: De Jong today

Postby ronk » Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:44 pm

DHTP:

I agree. I had a close look at him watching the game again and his passing was very good. A couple of times he went for through balls on the break that didn't pay off. But they were definitely the sort of passes that it's worth risking over, Arsenal did a good job of cutting them out.

I thought he was key in being the outlet that gave other players time on the ball.
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Re: De Jong today

Postby Niall Quinns Discopants » Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:48 pm

Dunne's Half-Time Pint wrote:
Grob wrote:
De Jong is a better version of Gelson Fernandes. He's no Claude Makalele but Makalele was no Claude Maklele himself untill his late 20's and 30's. De Jong is 24.

What De Jong needs to work on his is quality of pass and the ability to begin attacks. His passing is below par predominenty. It doesnt matter how much he wins the ball if he continually gives it away.


De Jong is not a better version of Gelson: Gelson had zero discipline - the man ran round like a headless chicken. Positionally De Jong is very good.

You're very right about the development of that kind of player though/Makelele - I've said that above like - read of the game can only improve with vintage.

This "continually gives it away" thing is a myth though... certainly based on yesterday. De Jong made unsuccessful passes 6 times (out of 37); Barry 4 times (in open play - out of 25); Ireland 3 (out of only 12); SWP was 5 (out of 12); Richards 8 (of 20); and Bellamy 5 (of 23).

Bridge, Lescott and Toure were all superb though - only 6 misplaced passes between them (out of 66). Adebayor - bearing in mind how isolated he was at times - made 2 unsuccessful passes in the whole game (out of 22)... world class really.

So De Jong - who's made the most passes in the team - had 84% completion. That's identical to Barry (who made 1/3 fewer passes) and better as a percentage than everyone except the CBs, Adebayor and Bridge.


While I've stayed away from this thread in purpose as I think truth is somewhere in the middle, I have to say that using passing percentages is not even nearly as simple as you make it sound. Central defenders and holding midfielders always have best success rates for simple reason that they rarely make passes on attacking half of the pitch but backwards and sideways passes on own half/near the center circle. Whole different thing having a great passing rate if you make most your passes near opposition box or putting in crosses.

De Jong isn't either shitter than shite or world class. He is a good tackler but isn't in my opinion involved enough to be called really top class. He also offers next to nothing going forward.
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Re: De Jong today

Postby Dunne's Half-Time Pint » Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:55 pm

Niall Quinns Discopants wrote:
Dunne's Half-Time Pint wrote:
Grob wrote:
De Jong is a better version of Gelson Fernandes. He's no Claude Makalele but Makalele was no Claude Maklele himself untill his late 20's and 30's. De Jong is 24.

What De Jong needs to work on his is quality of pass and the ability to begin attacks. His passing is below par predominenty. It doesnt matter how much he wins the ball if he continually gives it away.


De Jong is not a better version of Gelson: Gelson had zero discipline - the man ran round like a headless chicken. Positionally De Jong is very good.

You're very right about the development of that kind of player though/Makelele - I've said that above like - read of the game can only improve with vintage.

This "continually gives it away" thing is a myth though... certainly based on yesterday. De Jong made unsuccessful passes 6 times (out of 37); Barry 4 times (in open play - out of 25); Ireland 3 (out of only 12); SWP was 5 (out of 12); Richards 8 (of 20); and Bellamy 5 (of 23).

Bridge, Lescott and Toure were all superb though - only 6 misplaced passes between them (out of 66). Adebayor - bearing in mind how isolated he was at times - made 2 unsuccessful passes in the whole game (out of 22)... world class really.

So De Jong - who's made the most passes in the team - had 84% completion. That's identical to Barry (who made 1/3 fewer passes) and better as a percentage than everyone except the CBs, Adebayor and Bridge.


While I've stayed away from this thread in purpose as I think truth is somewhere in the middle, I have to say that using passing percentages is not even nearly as simple as you make it sound. Central defenders and holding midfielders always have best success rates for simple reason that they rarely make passes on attacking half of the pitch but backwards and sideways passes on own half/near the center circle. Whole different thing having a great passing rate if you make most your passes near opposition box or putting in crosses.

De Jong isn't either shitter than shite or world class. He is a good tackler but isn't in my opinion involved enough to be called really top class. He also offers next to nothing going forward.


I'm not trying to base my view of the quality of his performance on pass percentages - you're right about it being easier to get high % deeper - I'm saying that he did not "continually give it away" and using the figures to demonstrate this. I don't think I've failed in that regard.
His performance for me was based on defensive positioning - he forced them to play round the area which he occupies, and the area through which Arsenal traditionally have the most joy, and in that respect I thought he was very good.
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Re: De Jong today

Postby Grob » Mon Sep 14, 2009 1:08 pm

Dunne's Half-Time Pint wrote:
Grob wrote:
De Jong is a better version of Gelson Fernandes. He's no Claude Makalele but Makalele was no Claude Maklele himself untill his late 20's and 30's. De Jong is 24.

What De Jong needs to work on his is quality of pass and the ability to begin attacks. His passing is below par predominenty. It doesnt matter how much he wins the ball if he continually gives it away.


De Jong is not a better version of Gelson: Gelson had zero discipline - the man ran round like a headless chicken. Positionally De Jong is very good.

You're very right about the development of that kind of player though/Makelele - I've said that above like - read of the game can only improve with vintage.

This "continually gives it away" thing is a myth though... certainly based on yesterday. De Jong made unsuccessful passes 6 times (out of 37); Barry 4 times (in open play - out of 25); Ireland 3 (out of only 12); SWP was 5 (out of 12); Richards 8 (of 20); and Bellamy 5 (of 23).

Bridge, Lescott and Toure were all superb though - only 6 misplaced passes between them (out of 66). Adebayor - bearing in mind how isolated he was at times - made 2 unsuccessful passes in the whole game (out of 22)... world class really.

So De Jong - who's made the most passes in the team - had 84% completion. That's identical to Barry (who made 1/3 fewer passes) and better as a percentage than everyone except the CBs, Adebayor and Bridge.


Doesnt the fact that De Jong has better discipline and positional sense make him a better Gelson as I stated?? They are players in the same mould hence the comparison.

De Jong's ability to spread the game isnt good from the DM 'QB' position. Kompany is much better IMO. As an attacking force De Jong is non existant and a burden rather than a help. If most of my passes were 5 yard nudges to Toure, Lescott or Barry, my pass % would be awesome too.

As a 1 dimensional DM, as he played on Saturday he is fine. As a regular where we now require more from all of our players as we aim to challange for the title, we need more than a 1 dimensional DM. Hence why his first game of the season was not until Saturday.
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Re: De Jong today

Postby Original Dub » Mon Sep 14, 2009 1:10 pm

Dunne's Half-Time Pint wrote:
Niall Quinns Discopants wrote:
Dunne's Half-Time Pint wrote:
Grob wrote:
De Jong is a better version of Gelson Fernandes. He's no Claude Makalele but Makalele was no Claude Maklele himself untill his late 20's and 30's. De Jong is 24.

What De Jong needs to work on his is quality of pass and the ability to begin attacks. His passing is below par predominenty. It doesnt matter how much he wins the ball if he continually gives it away.


De Jong is not a better version of Gelson: Gelson had zero discipline - the man ran round like a headless chicken. Positionally De Jong is very good.

You're very right about the development of that kind of player though/Makelele - I've said that above like - read of the game can only improve with vintage.

This "continually gives it away" thing is a myth though... certainly based on yesterday. De Jong made unsuccessful passes 6 times (out of 37); Barry 4 times (in open play - out of 25); Ireland 3 (out of only 12); SWP was 5 (out of 12); Richards 8 (of 20); and Bellamy 5 (of 23).

Bridge, Lescott and Toure were all superb though - only 6 misplaced passes between them (out of 66). Adebayor - bearing in mind how isolated he was at times - made 2 unsuccessful passes in the whole game (out of 22)... world class really.

So De Jong - who's made the most passes in the team - had 84% completion. That's identical to Barry (who made 1/3 fewer passes) and better as a percentage than everyone except the CBs, Adebayor and Bridge.


While I've stayed away from this thread in purpose as I think truth is somewhere in the middle, I have to say that using passing percentages is not even nearly as simple as you make it sound. Central defenders and holding midfielders always have best success rates for simple reason that they rarely make passes on attacking half of the pitch but backwards and sideways passes on own half/near the center circle. Whole different thing having a great passing rate if you make most your passes near opposition box or putting in crosses.

De Jong isn't either shitter than shite or world class. He is a good tackler but isn't in my opinion involved enough to be called really top class. He also offers next to nothing going forward.


I'm not trying to base my view of the quality of his performance on pass percentages - you're right about it being easier to get high % deeper - I'm saying that he did not "continually give it away" and using the figures to demonstrate this. I don't think I've failed in that regard.
His performance for me was based on defensive positioning - he forced them to play round the area which he occupies, and the area through which Arsenal traditionally have the most joy, and in that respect I thought he was very good.


I agree with this. Mascherano does the same job for liverpool. Very very important role. Its not just the physical break up play, because sometimes it looks like he's not in the game, but his positional play in key areas force the attackers into less favourable positions. I'm not saying De Jong is as good as Mascherano but it did take a while before the fans appreciated what Mascherano did and I feel it will be the same for De Jong given time.
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