Ireland taken to hospital last night!

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Re: Ireland taken to hospital last night!

Postby Vhero » Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:59 am

Ted Hughes wrote:
Original Dub wrote:
Ted Hughes wrote:
Original Dub wrote:I disagree Ted. I don't think Gerrard would have been brilliant in a deep role. Or Lampard.

They may well be able to 'do a job if need be' given the experience they now have, but to employ them in that position full time is criminal. And if you say that Stevie Ireland didn't show the attributes of a young Gerrard last season than I'd have to disagree with you.


I don't think Ireland's playing in a deep role, he's just playing in a more orthadox midfield role & isn't as good as a Lampard or Gerrard or Robson at knowing when to come forward & when to go back. It's the next stage of his development. They've all played many games in the same role & done it perfectly.

There's no point though in pretending Ireland has the abilities of a Lampard or Gerrard because he simply doesn't. You're talking about 2 of the best strikers of a ball in PL history. Ireland has a bit more craft & guile but as an attacking threat is smaller so cant get to headers like they do & nowhere even on the same planet as a threat when shooting. He has to find a job to do alongside players like that, where he can be just as valuable to the team. That's what's happening imo.


Can't agree with you mate. When gerrard was the same age as Ireland, he scored 4 league goals and didn't better him until 2 or 3 years ago. His 'graft' isn't the same as you say, so what exactly was Gerrard doing when he was the same age as Stevie then?


Gerrard used to play exactly the same role as Ireland has been asked to, as did Lampard. They've both spent a lot of of their careers as orthadox midfielders. Gerrard has even played DeJong's role at the back of midfield. They do what's required depending on who else is in the team & are always amongst the best in the world at doing it. That's the challenge for Ireland.

I'll give you another example; Paul Scholes. He plays wherever he's asked. One minute he's playing in front of the back 4 in a side with Ronaldo, Giggs, Rooney, Tevez etc the next he's playing behind Rooney with Carrick, Fletcher, Park etc behind him. He can sit in front of the back 4 & still score a hat-trick. That's the challenge & the level Ireland should aim for, not settle for being another Elano who can only play when the moon is in the correct allignment.

I kind of agree with you here Hughes has a lot of players and likes to move them around to suit his formations especially when making a sub. None of our players except for strikers/Defenders stay in the same position for long and need to be ready to switch as the team requires. Obviously if Ireland can only play in 1 position he's gonna struggle staying in the team.
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Re: Ireland taken to hospital last night!

Postby shawzy » Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:10 pm

Ireland and Robson compliment eachothers game tremendously and cetainly thrived off one another last season.
Whereas Barry plays well whoever he plays with in the Mf.
Guess its just a case of adapting to the new system and squad.Im sure he will bang on form when Robson gets fit again.
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Re: Ireland taken to hospital last night!

Postby Ted Hughes » Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:11 pm

Vhero wrote:
Ted Hughes wrote:
Original Dub wrote:
Ted Hughes wrote:
Original Dub wrote:I disagree Ted. I don't think Gerrard would have been brilliant in a deep role. Or Lampard.

They may well be able to 'do a job if need be' given the experience they now have, but to employ them in that position full time is criminal. And if you say that Stevie Ireland didn't show the attributes of a young Gerrard last season than I'd have to disagree with you.


I don't think Ireland's playing in a deep role, he's just playing in a more orthadox midfield role & isn't as good as a Lampard or Gerrard or Robson at knowing when to come forward & when to go back. It's the next stage of his development. They've all played many games in the same role & done it perfectly.

There's no point though in pretending Ireland has the abilities of a Lampard or Gerrard because he simply doesn't. You're talking about 2 of the best strikers of a ball in PL history. Ireland has a bit more craft & guile but as an attacking threat is smaller so cant get to headers like they do & nowhere even on the same planet as a threat when shooting. He has to find a job to do alongside players like that, where he can be just as valuable to the team. That's what's happening imo.


Can't agree with you mate. When gerrard was the same age as Ireland, he scored 4 league goals and didn't better him until 2 or 3 years ago. His 'graft' isn't the same as you say, so what exactly was Gerrard doing when he was the same age as Stevie then?


Gerrard used to play exactly the same role as Ireland has been asked to, as did Lampard. They've both spent a lot of of their careers as orthadox midfielders. Gerrard has even played DeJong's role at the back of midfield. They do what's required depending on who else is in the team & are always amongst the best in the world at doing it. That's the challenge for Ireland.

I'll give you another example; Paul Scholes. He plays wherever he's asked. One minute he's playing in front of the back 4 in a side with Ronaldo, Giggs, Rooney, Tevez etc the next he's playing behind Rooney with Carrick, Fletcher, Park etc behind him. He can sit in front of the back 4 & still score a hat-trick. That's the challenge & the level Ireland should aim for, not settle for being another Elano who can only play when the moon is in the correct allignment.

I kind of agree with you here Hughes has a lot of players and likes to move them around to suit his formations especially when making a sub. None of our players except for strikers/Defenders stay in the same position for long and need to be ready to switch as the team requires. Obviously if Ireland can only play in 1 position he's gonna struggle staying in the team.


Well sometimes the choice will come down to either Ireland playing a more orthadox role, or City playing with one less forward because Ireland plays further up. If we need the extra forward & Ireland can't drop back then the only option is to replace him. Most world class midfielders wouldn't have to be replaced, they'd just adapt.
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Re: Ireland taken to hospital last night!

Postby blues-clues » Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:12 pm

It is an interesting debate for sure!

Asking Ireland to play "out of position" and still excel is one thing but is there a role for him in his best position? Does our flank heavy squad now suit him at any time?

You can't expect him to be MOTM playing all over the place and you cannot expect him to just settle straight into a position that does not suit him. He is not Gareth Barry, NDJ or Vince but neither is he SWP or Elano. Ireland played a vital role last season and excelled when Robson had a good game as well.

At the moment I struggle to see a team that has Robson and Bellamy in it if Ade is playing up front with Tevez just behind. If you did get them all on the pitch together, how are you ever going to get the best out of Ireland.

I think Stevie is a great player but not how he is being misused at the moment. Of course he may adapt to other positions but as others have already said on here he is not built to be a defensive midfielder and it would be a terrible waste to only use him in that position.

Ireland seemed to improve dramatically with the arrival of Robinho but the new arrivals seem to have had completely the opposite impact. I really hope he recovers his touch, finds his confidence or gets whatever the opportunity he needs to get back near to where he was last year within the current structure. We cannot expect miracles from the team every week but somehow we came to expect them from Stephen Ireland last year and it would be great to get him back!
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Re: Ireland taken to hospital last night!

Postby Robinho_Is_GOD » Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:13 pm

Hope he is back and in good health soon, must have been a little nerve-wracking for him to be whisked away in an Ambulance after feeling light-headed, I bet a thousand things were going through his mind then, I know it would have been with mine, had I been in the same scenario.

On the missing Robinho front, no doubt he is missing playing with a genius like Robinho, but I don't think it is a co-incidence that before Elano or Robinho were here, Ireland was not one to take the eye or be seen as having a future at the club, since they arrived, he suddenly looked a class act and found the ability he had to play, now neither of them are around again, we are getting the Ireland of Pearce's reign.

If he wants to be a star player for the team for seasons to come, then he best shape up and re-discover his form, as neither the club nor the Shiekh will hang around waiting for him to do so, for too long.
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Re: Ireland taken to hospital last night!

Postby Ted Hughes » Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:23 pm

blues-clues wrote:It is an interesting debate for sure!

Asking Ireland to play "out of position" and still excel is one thing but is there a role for him in his best position? Does our flank heavy squad now suit him at any time?

You can't expect him to be MOTM playing all over the place and you cannot expect him to just settle straight into a position that does not suit him. He is not Gareth Barry, NDJ or Vince but neither is he SWP or Elano. Ireland played a vital role last season and excelled when Robson had a good game as well.

At the moment I struggle to see a team that has Robson and Bellamy in it if Ade is playing up front with Tevez just behind. If you did get them all on the pitch together, how are you ever going to get the best out of Ireland.

I think Stevie is a great player but not how he is being misused at the moment. Of course he may adapt to other positions but as others have already said on here he is not built to be a defensive midfielder and it would be a terrible waste to only use him in that position.

Ireland seemed to improve dramatically with the arrival of Robinho but the new arrivals seem to have had completely the opposite impact. I really hope he recovers his touch, finds his confidence or gets whatever the opportunity he needs to get back near to where he was last year within the current structure. We cannot expect miracles from the team every week but somehow we came to expect them from Stephen Ireland last year and it would be great to get him back!


He can play his favoured role when the team needs it & do another job when it doesn't. He's not playing as a defensive midfielder though mate, just an orthadox one. When Tevez hit the post at the swamp at the end of the 1st half, Ireland was next to him. When Owen scored, Ireland had 7 Utd players closer to our goal than he was, in the 95th minute! If he was playing as a defensive midfielder that'd make him a complete twat!

It's about knowing when to go forward & when to stay back. He was right at the end of the 1st half because we were covered & wrong in the 95th minute because we weren't. He can learn that.
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Re: Ireland taken to hospital last night!

Postby Original Dub » Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:32 pm

Ted Hughes wrote:
Original Dub wrote:
Ted Hughes wrote:
Original Dub wrote:I disagree Ted. I don't think Gerrard would have been brilliant in a deep role. Or Lampard.

They may well be able to 'do a job if need be' given the experience they now have, but to employ them in that position full time is criminal. And if you say that Stevie Ireland didn't show the attributes of a young Gerrard last season than I'd have to disagree with you.


I don't think Ireland's playing in a deep role, he's just playing in a more orthadox midfield role & isn't as good as a Lampard or Gerrard or Robson at knowing when to come forward & when to go back. It's the next stage of his development. They've all played many games in the same role & done it perfectly.

There's no point though in pretending Ireland has the abilities of a Lampard or Gerrard because he simply doesn't. You're talking about 2 of the best strikers of a ball in PL history. Ireland has a bit more craft & guile but as an attacking threat is smaller so cant get to headers like they do & nowhere even on the same planet as a threat when shooting. He has to find a job to do alongside players like that, where he can be just as valuable to the team. That's what's happening imo.


Can't agree with you mate. When gerrard was the same age as Ireland, he scored 4 league goals and didn't better him until 2 or 3 years ago. His 'graft' isn't the same as you say, so what exactly was Gerrard doing when he was the same age as Stevie then?


Gerrard used to play exactly the same role as Ireland has been asked to, as did Lampard. They've both spent a lot of of their careers as orthadox midfielders. Gerrard has even played DeJong's role at the back of midfield. They do what's required depending on who else is in the team & are always amongst the best in the world at doing it. That's the challenge for Ireland.

I'll give you another example; Paul Scholes. He plays wherever he's asked. One minute he's playing in front of the back 4 in a side with Ronaldo, Giggs, Rooney, Tevez etc the next he's playing behind Rooney with Carrick, Fletcher, Park etc behind him. He can sit in front of the back 4 & still score a hat-trick. That's the challenge & the level Ireland should aim for, not settle for being another Elano who can only play when the moon is in the correct allignment.


Scholes is a bad example and employing him to sit in front of a back four would be ludacris given the fact that he is one of the worst tacklers I ever seen. He would be wasted in that position.

Gerrard may well have played this role but again was being wasted in this position. Are you saying now that he is ABLE to play that role, he is a better grafter or he plays there from time to time depending on how Liverpool are playing? No way, he is wasted anywhere but in attack, be that centre, right, left or second striker.

Gerrard goes missing for long periods of games when he is played any deeper than his usual advanced roles. There are direct comparrisons to be made between Ireland's play last season and Gerrard a few years ago. Ireland can strike the ball beautifully and his link up play if fantastic. Gerrard may strike the ball better - which is something he fine tuned as the years went on - and his link up play is fantastic, but there's no way Benitez would ask him to sit back a bit more.

I'm not saying I want to see Ireland get forward more - because I'm a Man City fan, not an Ireland fan - but while he may well adjust to doing a job in this new role, he is being wasted.

And comparing him to Elano and only being up for it when the moon is in allignment etc is just plain wrong. He can tackle and work like a horse while in that position. But the fact reamins that if he finds himself over the course of a few seasons being played what is essentially out of position, then someone who is screaming out for a player like him in the system they use (United, Arsenal?) will come in for him and you couldn't begrudge him leaving to play in his best role, which is unarguably the EXACT role he played last season.

Again, I want what's best for City, so I'm not saying he needs to be put back into his advanced role, but in this debate its my opinion that in this advanced role he has the potential to be one of the very best. Not to play alongside one of the very best. That's what Barry does. His potential is massive, but not unless he has the opportunity to play to his full strenght. And at 23, this learning curve you're implying, having already found his best position (unlike Gerrard at that age), could be a hinderence (to him as a player) rather than a help.
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Re: Ireland taken to hospital last night!

Postby Ted Hughes » Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:59 pm

Original Dub wrote:
Ted Hughes wrote:
Original Dub wrote:
Ted Hughes wrote:
Original Dub wrote:I disagree Ted. I don't think Gerrard would have been brilliant in a deep role. Or Lampard.

They may well be able to 'do a job if need be' given the experience they now have, but to employ them in that position full time is criminal. And if you say that Stevie Ireland didn't show the attributes of a young Gerrard last season than I'd have to disagree with you.


I don't think Ireland's playing in a deep role, he's just playing in a more orthadox midfield role & isn't as good as a Lampard or Gerrard or Robson at knowing when to come forward & when to go back. It's the next stage of his development. They've all played many games in the same role & done it perfectly.

There's no point though in pretending Ireland has the abilities of a Lampard or Gerrard because he simply doesn't. You're talking about 2 of the best strikers of a ball in PL history. Ireland has a bit more craft & guile but as an attacking threat is smaller so cant get to headers like they do & nowhere even on the same planet as a threat when shooting. He has to find a job to do alongside players like that, where he can be just as valuable to the team. That's what's happening imo.


Can't agree with you mate. When gerrard was the same age as Ireland, he scored 4 league goals and didn't better him until 2 or 3 years ago. His 'graft' isn't the same as you say, so what exactly was Gerrard doing when he was the same age as Stevie then?


Gerrard used to play exactly the same role as Ireland has been asked to, as did Lampard. They've both spent a lot of of their careers as orthadox midfielders. Gerrard has even played DeJong's role at the back of midfield. They do what's required depending on who else is in the team & are always amongst the best in the world at doing it. That's the challenge for Ireland.

I'll give you another example; Paul Scholes. He plays wherever he's asked. One minute he's playing in front of the back 4 in a side with Ronaldo, Giggs, Rooney, Tevez etc the next he's playing behind Rooney with Carrick, Fletcher, Park etc behind him. He can sit in front of the back 4 & still score a hat-trick. That's the challenge & the level Ireland should aim for, not settle for being another Elano who can only play when the moon is in the correct allignment.


Scholes is a bad example and employing him to sit in front of a back four would be ludacris given the fact that he is one of the worst tacklers I ever seen. He would be wasted in that position.

Gerrard may well have played this role but again was being wasted in this position. Are you saying now that is ABLE to play that role, he is a better grafter or he plays there from time to time depending on how Liverpool are playing? No way, he is wasted anywhere but in attack, be that centre, right, left or second striker.

Gerrard goes missing for long periods of games when he is played any deeper than his usual advanced roles. There are direct comparrisons to be made between Ireland's play last season and Gerrard a few years ago. Ireland can strike the ball beautifully and his link up play if fantastic. Gerrard may strike the ball better - which is something he fine tuned as the years went on - and his link up play is fantastic, but there' no way Benitez would ask him to sit back a bit more.

I'm not saying I want to see Ireland get forward more - because I'm a Man City fan, not an Ireland fan - but while he may well adjust to doing a job in this new role, he is being wasted.

And comparing him to Elano and only being up for it when the moon is in allignment etc is just plain wrong. He can tackle and work like a horse while in that position. But the fact reamins that if he finds himself over the course of a few seasons being played what is essentially out of position, then someone who is screaming out for a player like him in the system they use (U***d, Arsenal?) will come in for him and you couldn't begrudge him leaving to play in his best role, which is unarguably the EXACT role he played last season.

Again, I want what's best for City, so I'm not saying he needs to be put back into his advanced role, but in this debate its my opinion that in this advanced role he has the potential to be one of the very best. Not to play alongside one of the very best. That's what Barry does. His potential is massive, but not unless he has the opportunity to play to his full strenght. And at 23, this learning curve you're implying, having already found his best position (unlike Gerrard at that aga), could be a hinderence (to him as a player) rather than a help.


I'm not comparing him to Elano I'm saying I don't believe he's that sort of bloke; he'll learn & improve wheras Elano thinks it's everyone elses job to adapt to him. No way was Gerrard not a great player before he moved forward btw. He was a great central midfielder rather than now, where he's become a great attacking midfielder/2nd striker. Ireland just doesn't have the ammo to do what gerrard does to that level. If he did, we'd've seen it regularly. He's clever & sneaks in for goals wheras Gerrard leathers it in from 25 yards & is also a much better crosser of the ball, faster & better in the air; in short he has more attributes as a forward than Ireland does. Ireland is a midfield player.

Re Scholes he almost always goes deep & plays from the back now. He usually starts all the moves by taking the ball from the defence. He arrives forward late & scores from the edge of the box. When he 1st arrived he was a striker, he's adapted.

Arsenal are a good example of a side where Ireland could play his favoured role. They're also an example of a side that stopped winning things once that role appeared in their team rather than the orthadox midfield they used to play. If Ireland signed for the rags btw, he'd play where he was told, end of. He could play in that Joe Cole position for Chelsea but would he really be more of a threat than Joe Cole doing it? Would Liverpool swap him for Gerrard?

If his only use is as a playmaker, he'll be competing with the wrong people, he'll have to leave the PL eventually & he won't be half the player he could be.
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Re: Ireland taken to hospital last night!

Postby ronk » Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:01 pm

I'm glad he's okay.

Ireland hasn't stood out to the same extent as last year but we've still been playing well. The season is still early.

There have been flashes of the usual brilliance but he's less involved in the attacking play at the moment due to other options getting the ball more. SWP, in particular, has been running at defenders a lot (and giving away the ball).

Defensively, Ireland is a little closer to a 10 than a more conventional midfielder. He tends to take a freer role and look to intercept and setup counter-attacks in preference to stopping the progress of the ball carrier. That's not something I necessarily want to see him stop doing but the problem is that I think he needs to be a bit more careful in his decision making about when to go for it. At the moment he's all or nothing so often that attackers expect it and are adapting; and beating him. It can put that much more pressure on our defence when there's a proper midfield battle going on.
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Re: Ireland taken to hospital last night!

Postby Original Dub » Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:32 pm

Right well, I suppose we could go on for hours when the fact is, as Ronk has so rightly pointed out, its very early days...

The course of the season will tell us if Stevie is 'adapting' or 'back to form' or 'improves his decision making' or whatever we SUSPECT it could be at present. There is no doubting that at the minute he is below par in every aspect of game... I think we can all agree on that.

Also, Hughes is no fool when it comes to getting the best out of players like Stevie, as Stevie has confirmed himself, so whatever role/poisition Hughes reckons is best for Stevie's development or best for him right now, I'll leave it until the season is well under way. If he is playing a more orthadox role as you say Ted, then I suppose we have to offer him the same amount of patience to slot in as we do the rest of the team.

Good debate though, and I hope he proves to be the next great attacking premier league midfielder.

I'm confident he will do.
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Re: Ireland taken to hospital last night!

Postby Ted Hughes » Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:40 pm

Original Dub wrote:Right well, I suppose we could go on for hours when the fact is, as Ronk has so rightly pointed out, its very early days...

The course of the season will tell us if Stevie is 'adapting' or 'back to form' or 'improves his decision making' or whatever we SUSPECT it could be at present. There is no doubting that at the minute he is below par in every aspect of game... I think we can all agree on that.

Also, Hughes is no fool when it comes to getting the best out of players like Stevie, as Stevie has confirmed himself, so whatever role/poisition Hughes reckons is best for Stevie's development or best for him right now, I'll leave it until the season is well under way. If he is playing a more orthadox role as you say Ted, then I suppose we have to offer him the same amount of patience to slot in as we do the rest of the team.

Good debate though, and I hope he proves to be the next great attacking premier league midfielder.

I'm confident he will do.


My main concern is WHY he's unwell & dizzy. Is it a virus, in which case he may have given it to everyone else, or is it because he's doing too much training & suffering from exhaustion? It's a bit odd. He was actually crouched down holding his head, twice. I thought he'd had a blow on the head or something.
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Re: Ireland taken to hospital last night!

Postby Original Dub » Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:44 pm

Ted Hughes wrote:
Original Dub wrote:Right well, I suppose we could go on for hours when the fact is, as Ronk has so rightly pointed out, its very early days...

The course of the season will tell us if Stevie is 'adapting' or 'back to form' or 'improves his decision making' or whatever we SUSPECT it could be at present. There is no doubting that at the minute he is below par in every aspect of game... I think we can all agree on that.

Also, Hughes is no fool when it comes to getting the best out of players like Stevie, as Stevie has confirmed himself, so whatever role/poisition Hughes reckons is best for Stevie's development or best for him right now, I'll leave it until the season is well under way. If he is playing a more orthadox role as you say Ted, then I suppose we have to offer him the same amount of patience to slot in as we do the rest of the team.

Good debate though, and I hope he proves to be the next great attacking premier league midfielder.

I'm confident he will do.


My main concern is WHY he's unwell & dizzy. Is it a virus, in which case he may have given it to everyone else, or is it because he's doing too much training & suffering from exhaustion? It's a bit odd. He was actually crouched down holding his head, twice. I thought he'd had a blow on the head or something.



Its a strange one granted, but if it was a virus, the hospital would have picked up on it. It was more so dizziness which could be from a number of things from exhaustion to dehydration to a blow to the head.

Either way, he won't be played if he is not 100% in the head region!

Some would argue he never really was...
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Re: Ireland taken to hospital last night!

Postby Geo123 » Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:03 pm

The syntoms dont sound like a virus more of a cradiac problem (dizzyness/chest pains) or maybe im being paranoid after MVF,
But it is very strange, but i would imagine with all the equipment in clubs these days everything is monitired.
Hopefully anywy
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