some of Hughes tactics and substitutions baffling?

[mcfc1632]

What an absolutely fucking weird thread. He makes a substitution that immediately succeeds & people are saying if he'd done what THEY want it would've automatically worked out better? Of course if he'd done that & we lost it'd be his mistake though. What a load of speculative bullshit.

It works well for posters when playing some PC game - but to be fair I have sensed less antagonism / criticism that the norm

I think the most of the posts have been recognising that we bossed a good side and are just disappointed that we did not press on

I have definitely felt like there is more unity / sense on here tonight

And Stevie's pass had a lovely weight - Villa had to work their socks off to come a distant 2nd

[Ted Hughes]

What an absolutely fucking weird thread. He makes a substitution that immediately succeeds & people are saying if he'd done what THEY want it would've automatically worked out better? Of course if he'd done that & we lost it'd be his mistake though. What a load of speculative bullshit.

It works well for posters when playing some PC game - but to be fair I have sensed less antagonism / criticism that the norm

I think the most of the posts have been recognising that we bossed a good side and are just disappointed that we did not press on

I have definitely felt like there is more unity / sense on here tonight

And Stevie's pass had a lovely weight - Villa had to work their socks off to come a distant 2nd

Fair enough. It's just this bullshit substitution business does my head in. It's a load of bollocks which sometimes works & sometimes fails. Bringing on RSC, a player who's taken Dunne apart every time he's played against him, is hardly an illogical move. It's got just as much merit as ANY other possible substitution. 1 fucking decent cross from SWP etc wouldn't have been a bad way of testing it.

[Original Dub]

Well he brought Stevie Ireland on tonight who I thought changed the game for us, opening space for the likes of Ade who then played Bellamy the ball to score. So all in all I thought he did a decent job tonight with his tactics although I still think it was a bit early to throw RSC on for half an hour and I would of taken SWP rather than Tevez.

Like I said though Stevie changed the game for us so well done Hughes.

A-fucking-Men!

I admit I found some of Hughes changes last season annoying - some were just wrong, others were down to lack of quality options... but this season, particlularly in games where we needed something different, to the best of my knowledge Hughes' substitutes have all contributed signifigantly in every game?

And again tonight. I don't agree that the game was screaming out for Petrov... maybe for the winner in the last few mins, but unlike a few on here I am content with a point. The meanest defence in the legue so far and a genuine top four challenger.

FFS if United or Liverpool or Chelsea take a point at eastlands, they'll look at it as a valuable point and the extremely important fact that they didn't lose.

We've played three of the (maybe) eight hardest fixtures on paper and we've only lost once - possibly the hardest fixture too.

I'm thinking if we lose more than 3 games the title is probably out of reach and while I won't condone drawing with teams we should be beating, I don't believe United or Liverpool or the others would be fuming leaving Villa Park tonight... not half as much as they are for their own shitty, shitty results so far this season already.

The fucking lot of them. They're not half as scary as i remember them. You take our two star players away and you get a team that can take it to the champions on their turf...

Now take away the 'big' four's two star players... and give them the fixtures we've had lately.

Exactly.

[Ted Hughes]

Well he brought Stevie Ireland on tonight who I thought changed the game for us, opening space for the likes of Ade who then played Bellamy the ball to score. So all in all I thought he did a decent job tonight with his tactics although I still think it was a bit early to throw RSC on for half an hour and I would of taken SWP rather than Tevez.

Like I said though Stevie changed the game for us so well done Hughes.

A-fucking-Men!

I admit I found some of Hughes changes last season annoying - some were just wrong, others were down to lack of quality options... but this season, particlularly in games where we needed something different, to the best of my knowledge Hughes' substitutes have all contributed signifigantly in every game?

And again tonight. I don't agree that the game was screaming out for Petrov... maybe for the winner in the last few mins, but unlike a few on here I am content with a point. The meanest defence in the legue so far and a genuine top four challenger.

FFS if U***d or Liverpool or Chelsea take a point at eastlands, they'll look at it as a valuable point and the extremely important fact that they didn't lose.

We've played three of the (maybe) eight hardest fixtures on paper and we've only lost once - possibly the hardest fixture too.

I'm thinking if we lose more than 3 games the title is probably out of reach and while I won't condone drawing with teams we should be beating, I don't believe U***d or Liverpool or the others would be fuming leaving Villa Park tonight... not half as much as they are for their own shitty, shitty results so far this season already.

The fucking lot of them. They're not half as scary as i remember them. You take our two star players away and you get a team that can take it to the champions on their turf...

Now take away the 'big' four's two star players... and give them the fixtures we've had lately.

Exactly.

Unfortunately for us, that's as good as Villa get. ONeil said himself it's the best they've played. Unlikely they'll reach that level against our competitors & their arses ALWAYS go when the rags visit. On the strength of that, it's probably 2 points lost, even though many sides would've crumbled on the night. Pity we couldn't have played them a bit further along the road when they've cracked up, which they will.

[Original Dub]

Well he brought Stevie Ireland on tonight who I thought changed the game for us, opening space for the likes of Ade who then played Bellamy the ball to score. So all in all I thought he did a decent job tonight with his tactics although I still think it was a bit early to throw RSC on for half an hour and I would of taken SWP rather than Tevez.

Like I said though Stevie changed the game for us so well done Hughes.

A-fucking-Men!

I admit I found some of Hughes changes last season annoying - some were just wrong, others were down to lack of quality options... but this season, particlularly in games where we needed something different, to the best of my knowledge Hughes' substitutes have all contributed signifigantly in every game?

And again tonight. I don't agree that the game was screaming out for Petrov... maybe for the winner in the last few mins, but unlike a few on here I am content with a point. The meanest defence in the legue so far and a genuine top four challenger.

FFS if U***d or Liverpool or Chelsea take a point at eastlands, they'll look at it as a valuable point and the extremely important fact that they didn't lose.

We've played three of the (maybe) eight hardest fixtures on paper and we've only lost once - possibly the hardest fixture too.

I'm thinking if we lose more than 3 games the title is probably out of reach and while I won't condone drawing with teams we should be beating, I don't believe U***d or Liverpool or the others would be fuming leaving Villa Park tonight... not half as much as they are for their own shitty, shitty results so far this season already.

The fucking lot of them. They're not half as scary as i remember them. You take our two star players away and you get a team that can take it to the champions on their turf...

Now take away the 'big' four's two star players... and give them the fixtures we've had lately.

Exactly.

Unfortunately for us, that's as good as Villa get. ONeil said himself it's the best they've played. Unlikely they'll reach that level against our competitors & their arses ALWAYS go when the rags visit. On the strength of that, it's probably 2 points lost, even though many sides would've crumbled on the night. Pity we couldn't have played them a bit further along the road when they've cracked up, which they will.

If that's as bad as it gets, I'll take it !

[Ted Hughes]

Well he brought Stevie Ireland on tonight who I thought changed the game for us, opening space for the likes of Ade who then played Bellamy the ball to score. So all in all I thought he did a decent job tonight with his tactics although I still think it was a bit early to throw RSC on for half an hour and I would of taken SWP rather than Tevez.

Like I said though Stevie changed the game for us so well done Hughes.

A-fucking-Men!

I admit I found some of Hughes changes last season annoying - some were just wrong, others were down to lack of quality options... but this season, particlularly in games where we needed something different, to the best of my knowledge Hughes' substitutes have all contributed signifigantly in every game?

And again tonight. I don't agree that the game was screaming out for Petrov... maybe for the winner in the last few mins, but unlike a few on here I am content with a point. The meanest defence in the legue so far and a genuine top four challenger.

FFS if U***d or Liverpool or Chelsea take a point at eastlands, they'll look at it as a valuable point and the extremely important fact that they didn't lose.

We've played three of the (maybe) eight hardest fixtures on paper and we've only lost once - possibly the hardest fixture too.

I'm thinking if we lose more than 3 games the title is probably out of reach and while I won't condone drawing with teams we should be beating, I don't believe U***d or Liverpool or the others would be fuming leaving Villa Park tonight... not half as much as they are for their own shitty, shitty results so far this season already.

The fucking lot of them. They're not half as scary as i remember them. You take our two star players away and you get a team that can take it to the champions on their turf...

Now take away the 'big' four's two star players... and give them the fixtures we've had lately.

Exactly.

Unfortunately for us, that's as good as Villa get. ONeil said himself it's the best they've played. Unlikely they'll reach that level against our competitors & their arses ALWAYS go when the rags visit. On the strength of that, it's probably 2 points lost, even though many sides would've crumbled on the night. Pity we couldn't have played them a bit further along the road when they've cracked up, which they will.

If that's as bad as it gets, I'll take it !

Whatever happens in the near future, the key imo is to be somewhere thereabouts for the run in. Whatever ups & downs come, even if we get the odd nightmare result, if we're within touching distance of any of the top 4 places midwinter then any teams not completely out of reach have got potential big fuckoff problems because we'll go for it & won't have a chump's league to worry about. Also we'll have nothing to lose wheras they'll have everything to lose. We just have to stay in sight of them.

[lets all have a disco]

Ha ha i love this thread Hughes didnt do badly with his subs tonight.He brought on Ireland who changed the game,brought on Santa who caused problems IMHO the only thing he didnt do is replace SWP,FFS we drew give the guy some slack after spending my evening in that shithole im glad we came away with something.

[xavi6]

I'm glad Hughes went with attacking substitutions. It was good to see that attitdue unlike Villa who, when needing to replace an attacking midfielder, threw on a defensive donkey in Reo-Coker to shut down our left side.

The only difference I think I'd have liked was Petrov for Tevez and not RSC with Bellers going up top alongside Ade. Petrov could have destroyed Cuellar and put in some crosses and Bellamy would have had a field day against Collins.

[DoomMerchant]

I'm glad Hughes went with attacking substitutions. It was good to see that attitdue unlike Villa who, when needing to replace an attacking midfielder, threw on a defensive donkey in Reo-Coker to shut down our left side.

The only difference I think I'd have liked was Petrov for Tevez and not RSC with Bellers going up top alongside Ade. Petrov could have destroyed Cuellar and put in some crosses and Bellamy would have had a field day against Collins.

totally agree...i think Hughes substitution of Ireland for NDJ was out of injury to NDJ more than his interest in changing things up at the time. He still had to decide who to throw on tho, so it's a bit of a moot point, but i think you get what im saying. How much longer would he have pressed on if NDJ hadn't been injured? i dunno.

[Niall Quinns Discopants]

What an absolutely fucking weird thread. He makes a substitution that immediately succeeds & people are saying if he'd done what THEY want it would've automatically worked out better? Of course if he'd done that & we lost it'd be his mistake though. What a load of speculative bullshit.

Without commenting on the overall point of this thread, it has to be said at this stage of the topic that De Jong came off for Ireland because of ankle injury, not because Hughes wanted to change things around.

Overall, Hughes seems like a manager who has a gameplan and usually wants to see it through late in the game until and if he makes substitutions. That's one school of thought and one of my favourite managers in the league Martin O'Neil is the same. Some other managers are more eager to react to situations. I don't think there's any single right or wrong school of thought here.

[mcfc1632]

What an absolutely fucking weird thread. He makes a substitution that immediately succeeds & people are saying if he'd done what THEY want it would've automatically worked out better? Of course if he'd done that & we lost it'd be his mistake though. What a load of speculative bullshit.

Without commenting on the overall point of this thread, it has to be said at this stage of the topic that De Jong came off for Ireland because of ankle injury, not because Hughes wanted to change things around.

Overall, Hughes seems like a manager who has a gameplan and usually wants to see it through late in the game until and if he makes substitutions. That's one school of thought and one of my favourite managers in the league Martin O'Neil is the same. Some other managers are more eager to react to situations. I don't think there's any single right or wrong school of thought here.

I agree - on the one hand you prepare for a match - you brief your players before hand and you give them roles / gameplan to perform - if the preparation is right then you will want to see it through

Of course you have to be able to observe how things pan out in the game and adapt - put there is a fine line between doing that and becoming a 'tinkerman' - people talk about throwing this player on or that - but you also need all the players to know how the tactics are to be changed and how it affects their individual roles - it is easy to cause distraction / confusion through making changes as well - all in all it is a fine balance.

I wonder if there is not more to be said in making changes more often at half time when you have the chance to sit down and explain the changes you want and what individuals need to change - but this never seems to happen - but for me this is mainly because teams tend to only haver a limited number of 1st team players -with our squad and ability to play so many options - I just wonder if that is not something we should think of more as an option

[Dazzacity]

Iv said it before, I said it last night and Ill say it again.. Hughes will only start really convincing me when he manages to really turn a game. That to me, is when you have a great manager. Iv never really seen him turn a game on its head with big tactical changes..

I was anti Hughes last season and now Im on the fence as I want to give him a chance with a new squad. His signings have been great!! Now lets see if he can make a team out of them.. Still a little sus in some of the things he does but so far so good..Too early yet though.

I was baffled last night as to how shite SWP was yet Hughes kept him on!! It was clear to everyone that he simply didnt turn up and wasnt goin to pick up his game. Think an early change for Petrov,move Bellamy in would have made a massive difference. Or maybe moved Tevez to the right and RSC on for SWP..

[sky_blue_stew]

To be fair to Villa, they had a similar performance to that against Liverpool and beat them 3-1, so we should definitely consider ourselves well improved in terms of the result. Although second half I really felt if we'd pushed on for the win a bit more it looked very possible. Ireland was an inspired introduction, RSC was reasonable given his record against Dunne, I would probably have liked to see Petrov but we'd used all subs by then.

In terms of tactics, why the hell was Barry left to mark Dunne? That was just baiting fate so that there'd be some headline about the swapped players! Adebayor would have nailed Dunne in the air, leave Barry to mark the space!

[Ted Hughes]

Iv said it before, I said it last night and Ill say it again.. Hughes will only start really convincing me when he manages to really turn a game. That to me, is when you have a great manager. Iv never really seen him turn a game on its head with big tactical changes..

I was anti Hughes last season and now Im on the fence as I want to give him a chance with a new squad. His signings have been great!! Now lets see if he can make a team out of them.. Still a little sus in some of the things he does but so far so good..Too early yet though.

I was baffled last night as to how shite SWP was yet Hughes kept him on!! It was clear to everyone that he simply didnt turn up and wasnt goin to pick up his game. Think an early change for Petrov,move Bellamy in would have made a massive difference. Or maybe moved Tevez to the right and RSC on for SWP..

There's absolutely no way of knowing for sure what effect a substitution will have & none of the opinions on it are neccessarily any more insightful than those of the manager. It could be right it could be wrong. There are pros & cons for everything. RSC was useless when he came on but one decent cross or corner & he could've been the matchwinner, just as Petrov could or Petrov may have lost the ball in his own half & lost us the game or a break down the right could've lost it if SWP wasn't there. Speculation.

[sandman]

Do others like me find some of Hughes tactics and substitutions baffling?

I am not basing this on one match, I am basing with observations I made last season and this season, last season there were many matches where I felt Hughes dawdled in making substitutions, and when he did belatedly make them I was just confused, throwing a 2-0 lead against Liverpool because we were unable to shut up shop is one that springs to mind, playing right sided players on the left etc were others.

We have had a great season so far, yet I feel we lost to the Scum because Hughes changed things at half time and took far to long to revert back to the same system, I remember De Jong pleading with him to sure up the midfield because we were being over run, he took far to long to change things, tonight for me it was evident very early on that midfield was none existent, substitutions should have been made after maybe just half an hour, bringing on SI was a positive move, then any benefit from it effectively evaporated by bringing on the clearly unfit RSC ,I feel we could and should have beaten these if the right choices were made by Hughes.

bad choices might cost us in the bigger games where Hughes needs to pit his whit’s against the top 4.

I totally agree with this and this is the only reason I am still in the Hughes Out Brigade, unfortunately as good as he is in the purchasing side of managment I honestly believe he does not have enough in his bag of tricks to contend for trophies, Arse, Scum and Scousers have all proven they have managers who can change a game for the better with a single substitution, we dont.

[CITYTILLIDIE11]

Iv said it before, I said it last night and Ill say it again.. Hughes will only start really convincing me when he manages to really turn a game. That to me, is when you have a great manager. Iv never really seen him turn a game on its head with big tactical changes..

I was anti Hughes last season and now Im on the fence as I want to give him a chance with a new squad. His signings have been great!! Now lets see if he can make a team out of them.. Still a little sus in some of the things he does but so far so good..Too early yet though.

I was baffled last night as to how shite SWP was yet Hughes kept him on!! It was clear to everyone that he simply didnt turn up and wasnt goin to pick up his game. Think an early change for Petrov,move Bellamy in would have made a massive difference. Or maybe moved Tevez to the right and RSC on for SWP..

Totally agree with you mate.

I have to be totally honest here and say Hughes wasn’t on my list of managers that I wanted to have the City job, however some of his signings have been great, Hughes the man comes across as a likeable bloke, we have got off to a flyer this season with one of our best starts since the 60s.

However is our great start to the season more to do with spending 10s of millions of pounds or more to do with Hughes management skills ?,

Like you I have still to be convinced that Hughes has the ability to change a big match last night for me was a prime example of game that needed changing I personally thought we were good enough to win with the players at our disposal and the right management, for me it was a prime example of Hughes inadequacies ,I am not going to start going on about them all except to highlight bringing on RSC who looked a million miles away from full fitness it was a shocking decision ,never mind he needs match fitness there’s a time and a place like the reserves, what has Hughes seen in training to suggest this bloke is ready for a game like Villa when he is not even fit ?,

There’s no doubt in my mind that we are going to have a brilliant season, we are going to win a lot of games regardless just because of the sheer quality of our side, but there are going to be big games where Hughes needs to earn his corn when we face a more stiff challenge, I honestly believe we could and should have won last night, and taken a point from the swamp, I think we have dropped 4 points this season.

[john68]

Last season Hughes made a number of substitutions that baffled me at the time. Later when questioned about them, his explanations seemed plausible and I then understood what he was trying to do.

What I do know is that, during a game, Hughes has access to very complex set of individual stats on each player and is fully aware of every aspect of their individual performance and the way it impacts on tactics as a whole.

Maybe, the fact that Hughes has this information shows him things that generally would remain unseen. As long as we keep on schedule, and I think we are slightly ahead at the moment, I will be happy to remain baffled and celebrate the gains we are making content in the knowledge that he probably knows what is going on, more than I do.

[CITYTILLIDIE11]

Last season Hughes made a number of substitutions that baffled me at the time. Later when questioned about them, his explanations seemed plausible and I then understood what he was trying to do.

What I do know is that, during a game, Hughes has access to very complex set of individual stats on each player and is fully aware of every aspect of their individual performance and the way it impacts on tactics as a whole.

Maybe, the fact that Hughes has this information shows him things that generally would remain unseen. As long as we keep on schedule, and I think we are slightly ahead at the moment, I will be happy to remain baffled and celebrate the gains we are making content in the knowledge that he probably knows what is going on, more than I do.

Exactly working from stats, 99% of the time there will be no problem and it will be a good method.

However there will be matches where he needs to go off what his eyes are seeing, I see us having problems against opposition that is more evenly matched on the pitch, I hope Hughes proves me wrong but I see him struggling against the top managers as he did last season, it was no coincidence that other than a solitary win against Arsenal we struggled against the top 4.

Fortune favours the brave and last nights match was there for the taking, Villa are not a great side

[john@staustell]

Apparently his transfer policy and team spirit tactics were baffling until we started the season so well.

Maybe wait til we lose a few games before criticising the subs eh?

[london blue 2]

One thing i can say is that we all saw that barry was getting crucified by Dunne when villa had a corner. I saw it early and said to my pal "hughes has to stick someone else on Dunne" as the villa players were all running away from the penalty spot leaving Dunne 1 on 1 with barry. eventually Hughes sorted it, but not before Dunne very nearly made it 2-0. I would have thought he'd of seen that very early.