The mancityfans.net football forum

Right, not many will argue that up to now Stevie's been relatively poor. Obviously he's made things harder for himself by being outstanding last season and setting a really high standard that many will have expected him to maintain. As I see it (and correct me if I'm wrong) there are three scenarios, so I want to know what the general consensus is.

1) He needs to be utilised in the position he's most effective, behind the frontmen, and so Hughes should tweak his system.

2) Over the course of time, he will develop and become a stronger, more rounded player in the middle of the park. We need to keep playing him and accept that he'll have poor days as he's learning.

3) He doesn't fit Hughes' system. Have him on the bench to come on and make an impact like he did on Monday night.


I'm uncertain but leaning towards the second one. We should be in a position now where even if he is off-colour, the quality of players around him can keep the team ticking over.

But one of his strongest aspects I think are his late runs and the way he times them perfectly. He can leave an opposition defence completely for dead, where they think he's in midfield and between blinks he's advanced through the pitch and beyond them. Probably the best example of this was against Everton away last season when he scored our second goal.



There he is, in the centre circle. None of their defenders anticipate that he's going to/can do this-



And remarkably the time elapsed between those two shots is five seconds; he got from our half after seeing off an Everton break, and had the ball in the back of the net within 8 seconds.

What I'm unsure about is can he make those surging runs if we're playing with just himself and Barry in midfield? Can Barry and the defence cope with the possibility of a counterattack? Or does that system dictate that the midfielders have to restrict their movement?

What I do know is that he has the raw materials to become a world-class footballer. It's just, in the short term, how do we best utilise him?

And remarkably the time elapsed between those two shots is five seconds; he got from our half after seeing off an Everton break, and had the ball in the back of the net within 8 seconds.

Wow, he's faster than Adebayor over the lenghth of the pitch ;-)

That's actually a great example and a very tricky question. Is Hughes actually in a position to play a player, just to see him grow (option 2)? It'll probably be great for the club in the long run, but it might cost us dearly now ... I hope he has the guts to do it, because I think Ireland's potential is enormous, but I also think us city fans are biassed. We're desperate for him to turn into our own home grown Gerrard/Lampard type of player and symbol.

Excellent post and question CtK.

Were we playing 4-2-3-1 against Everton with Ireland in the middle? That system would have allowed us to cope with any counter attack with Zabba and Vinny covering. I know it was regarded as a negative tactic by some, but it gave our front four a lot of license to go forward.

A possible line-up would be:

---------------Given----------------
Zab----Toure--------JL-----Bridge
--------NdJ-----------Gaz-----------
Tevez-------Superman-----Bellamy
---------------Ade-------------------

I think it could prove very useful against the better away sides, such as Scouse 2 last year, while I would look to play a 4-4-2 against weaker opposition with either SWP or Petrov coming in for Gaz or NdJ with Stevie moving back and either Tevez or Bellamy coming into the centre.

To sum up, I think Stevie is goint to need to get used to being more of an all-rounder depending on the opposition.

Excellent post and question CtK.

Were we playing 4-2-3-1 against Everton with Ireland in the middle? That system would have allowed us to cope with any counter attack with Zabba and Vinny covering. I know it was regarded as a negative tactic by some, but it gave our front four a lot of license to go forward.

A possible line-up would be:

---------------Given----------------
Zab----Toure--------JL-----Bridge
--------NdJ-----------Gaz-----------
Tevez-------Superman-----Bellamy
---------------Ade-------------------

I think it could prove very useful against the better away sides, such as Scouse 2 last year, while I would look to play a 4-4-2 against weaker opposition with either SWP or Petrov coming in for Gaz or NdJ with Stevie moving back and either Tevez or Bellamy coming into the centre.

To sum up, I think Stevie is goint to need to get used to being more of an all-rounder depending on the opposition.

Option 2. Keep playing him in the role the manager wants and Stevie will become a better player in more than position. It's just a blip in form and nothing to be overly concerned about imo. His natural talent will enable him to adapt, this season has seen a huge change to the team and to his teamates so a transitional period of readjustment is/was to be expected.

4) Ship him out with SWP in January, he was a one season wonder and doesn't have the quality to cut it at the level we want to be at.


or slightly more seriously, it is clear to me that option 2 is the more likely solution for the moment. However, when we have a fit again Vincent Kompany and Michael Johnson available I am tempted to believe that we may see us starting to play a slightly different system which utilises one of those two in more of a ball playing version of the role that De Jong has been playing and allows Stevie more opportunity to operate as a link between midfield and the forwards.

To be honest though, I think most of us are confident that he has more than enough talent to adapt and thrive in whatever role. It's just been unfortunate that his change of role and blip in form have co-incided.

I was very encouraged by his cameo on Monday though and didn't think we lost any rigidity as a result of Nigel going off and being replaced by Ireland

It is a dilemma he has the quality he has proved it but can he do it every year? I don't think so I think last year took it out of him and that's why this year he's having so many problems. He's trying too hard to emulate what he did.

I think he is doing the same thing as last year but not doing it as well.

I think it was obvious on monday how much we need to get him playing in the role he's best at. we are lacking options in that area. Its not as if he doesn't track back. The lad could be as affective as Gerrard for liverpool if given the licence to do so.

I don't think Ireland's poorish form has been down to positional issues at all.

The two biggest factors affecting Ireland have been...

1. He overtrained in the summer and never stopped - apparently doing more training as soon as he gets home from training at Carrington. This has weakened his body hence the headaches and illness at Fulham away. Training a little less and listening to the medical staff will do him wonders.

2. Robinho has not been playing. As you point out well CTK, Ireland scored a lot of goals coming from deep and making perfectly timed runs into the box. However, we are not playing Robinho and our strikers are now basing all their attacks on pure speed. Even Tevez and Adebayor are struggling to get in the box when Bellamy is running down the wing. This means Ireland never gets nearer than 30 yards from the goal on a counter attack.

If Robinho plays, he slows the game down completely, draws players over to him and creates space in the midfield for Ireland to expose. Robinho is a brilliant passer of the ball and finds Ireland easily with those runs.

For me the dilemma is not about Ireland but about which form of attack do we want to employ?

The Robinho and Ireland show or the Bellamy, Tevez and Adebayor show?

But what a dilemma to have!

There are some fantastic playmakers in the premier league.

He's one of them and has the ability to become the best IMO.

He could well adjust and do a job at becoming an all round midfielder, and if this is for the best for City, then fine. As far as the player goes, this 'learning curve' could help him, but I'd rather play in my favourite position if I were him.

He has admitted and hughes has admitted that he is being asked to sit back more. Of that there can be no arguing, so it is pretty ignorant to claim that he's doing the exact same thing as last season... or last season has 'taken it out of him'.

CTK has quite correctly stated there is a change in role for Ireland this season, and while most in this thread are debating the three options listed, there's still a couple who won't accept this for some bizzare reason.

I don't think Hughes should tweak his system to suit anybody - and I read some of the Petrov rants of how he SHOULD have played. Our team is in fantastic form and it changes to suit no man.

However, like I said above, Ireland is one of the best playmakers in the premier league and if city doesn't suit his style of play over the long haul, then I'd be quite confident the likes of Arsenal would have him like a light.... I'd hate to see that happen because he's a super super player with a lot more to come and I'm not so sure about him learning to sit back more at 23, when he should be harnessing his speciality... but that's for player development and potential.

There's a long way to go in this season, so its still not suffice to say that hughes has indeed found his best system anyway.

Original Dub wrote:There are some fantastic playmakers in the premier league.

He's one of them and has the ability to become the best IMO.

He could well adjust and do a job at becoming an all round midfielder, and if this is for the best for City, then fine. As far as the player goes, this 'learning curve' could help him, but I'd rather play in my favourite position if I were him.

He has admitted and hughes has admitted that he is being asked to sit back more. Of that there can be no arguing, so it is pretty ignorant to claim that he's doing the exact same thing as last season... or last season has 'taken it out of him'.

CTK has quite correctly stated there is a change in role for Ireland this season, and while most in this thread are debating the three options listed, there's still a couple who won't accept this for some bizzare reason.

I don't think Hughes should tweak his system to suit anybody - and I read some of the Petrov rants of how he SHOULD have played. Our team is in fantastic form and it changes to suit no man.

However, like I said above, Ireland is one of the best playmakers in the premier league and if city doesn't suit his style of play over the long haul, then I'd be quite confident the likes of Arsenal would have him like a light.... I'd hate to see that happen because he's a super super player with a lot more to come and I'm not so sure about him learning to sit back more at 23, when he should be harnessing his speciality... but that's for player development and potential.

There's a long way to go in this season, so its still not suffice to say that hughes has indeed found his best system anyway.

Good post Dub...and my sentiments exactly

We all know Ireland has the drive and skill to become the best...I suppose his amazing season last year has put more pressure on him...but I happen to think he will take it on his shoulders and thrive on the challenge of becoming a more rounded midfielder

I truly believe he will go on to become a City great

MaineRoadMemories wrote:I don't think Ireland's poorish form has been down to positional issues at all.

The two biggest factors affecting Ireland have been...

1. He overtrained in the summer and never stopped - apparently doing more training as soon as he gets home from training at Carrington. This has weakened his body hence the headaches and illness at Fulham away. Training a little less and listening to the medical staff will do him wonders.

2. Robinho has not been playing. As you point out well CTK, Ireland scored a lot of goals coming from deep and making perfectly timed runs into the box. However, we are not playing Robinho and our strikers are now basing all their attacks on pure speed. Even Tevez and Adebayor are struggling to get in the box when Bellamy is running down the wing. This means Ireland never gets nearer than 30 yards from the goal on a counter attack.

If Robinho plays, he slows the game down completely, draws players over to him and creates space in the midfield for Ireland to expose. Robinho is a brilliant passer of the ball and finds Ireland easily with those runs.

For me the dilemma is not about Ireland but about which form of attack do we want to employ?

The Robinho and Ireland show or the Bellamy, Tevez and Adebayor show?

But what a dilemma to have!

I think your right with both reasons hes over exerting himself which is the point I was trying to get across with training and Robinho being out. As for Robinho slowing things down I would have to say if anything I think its the other way around its Robs breakaways which him and Ireland do so well at. One thing I noticed this season is players like Barry don't like to do breakaways they get the ball with the opportunity and slow the game giving the opposition defence ample opportunity to get back as well as our own players to get forward and break down the opposition that way. Ireland I think is more used to the system last year where we were constantly getting goals from counter attacks something this season we are rarely doing.

We have come along way though as that's the reason we couldn't win away last season as we couldn't break teams down and counter attacking method obviously didn't work away against an 10 man wall. We are a completely different side this season and Ireland is having trouble fitting in simple as. Elano was the same last season but obviously Stevie will work hard at fitting into this new system rather than speaking out to the media about it and getting transferred.

i think this photo says it all really, the defence are too worried about robinho and what he is going to do with the ball and this creates the space for ireland to run into. that is not happening this season as teams cannot just worry about 1 player, they have to cover 4 or 5 and it means they will tend to keep their shape and sit back.

if anything i think ireland arrives in the box too early, although that is great when there is space there it dosent work too well when the box is packed with defenders. look at lampard, he usually arrives late in the 1st phase waiting for a pull back or arrives in the second phase and he is very hard too pick up. i think we should stay playing ireland and let him learn about timing his runs into the box.

[quote="Vhero"
One thing I noticed this season is players like Barry don't like to do breakaways they get the ball with the opportunity and slow the game giving the opposition defence ample opportunity to get back as well as our own players to get forward and break down the opposition that way. quote]

I wouldn't say that's true of Barry's general game at all, in fact his passing suits counterattacking completely - look at how prolific Villa were on the break last year. Barry would pick the ball up in midfield and then play a 30/40 yard ball for Agbonlahor or Young to chase. He could definitely do that for us, he just needs to learn about the movement and combinations of forwards we have. In all fairness to Villa, their players would always just head for the channels towards the corner flags, while Ade, Tevez, Robinho and Ireland all present completely different dimensions to their runs. That will take a while for a player like Barry to get used to. Sorry, I've completely hijacked this thread.

Ireland will also have to make these adjustments because, as we have all seen, he links up incredibly well with Robinho but now needs to learn how to accomodate himself alongside a new set of players. Always going to be a tricky adjustment, it's just the others have gelled incredibly fast, which makes his slight delay more apparent. There's no reason he can't evolve into a Lampard-like runner, but getting the system right will take a while for Hughes to work out.

Option one - he should basically play where he wants, let him off the leash and roam around.

This may sound crazy, but for one game I am curious to see how SWP would slot in at RB. He seems to track back well, and would be able to swing in a few crosses and put more pressure on. Zabba just seemed to be lacking a bit coming forward, although I have very few complaints with the defensive side of his game.

If Hughes gave SWP a go at right back, slot Tevez on the right and put Ireland in right behind the striker. Just for an experiment I would be curious to see how this line-up worked out.

--------------Given------------
SWP--Toure--Lescott--Bridge
------De Jong--Barry----------
Tevez-----Ireland-----Bellamy
-------------Adebayor----------

Kyle wrote:This may sound crazy, but for one game I am curious to see how SWP would slot in at RB. He seems to track back well, and would be able to swing in a few crosses and put more pressure on. Zabba just seemed to be lacking a bit coming forward, although I have very few complaints with the defensive side of his game.

If Hughes gave SWP a go at right back, slot Tevez on the right and put Ireland in right behind the striker. Just for an experiment I would be curious to see how this line-up worked out.

--------------Given------------
SWP--Toure--Lescott--Bridge
------De Jong--Barry----------
Tevez-----Ireland-----Bellamy
-------------Adebayor----------

If you remember he did start off as a striker and then wingback under Keegan. Certainly has the defensive tenacity for playing back there, but I think he wouldn't have the body strength needed to cope with the players who would be running at him. I know if I was manager of the opposition I would have some monster running the left channel all day and almost completely unchecked.

This has made front page of the OS!

Ireland is an extremely talented player who's changed the way he plays the game more than once. A few years ago he was a reluctant shooter, he was all about making opportunities for others. Round about the time he scored a few goals for Ireland he started shooting more, made him more effective because it was harder for defenders.

Last year he really put in a shift but for the most part he was trying to steal possession and set-up fast breaks rather than snuffing out attacks. As CtK points out he was brilliant last year at finding space for late runs into the box. He'd have scored twice as many goals if we'd been better at spotting them and finding him.

But defenders cop on to that sort of thing. They learn to pick up the dangermen rather than just marking the space. When they learn that he's not the guy to risk getting caught in possession with it gets a lot harder.

Ireland is adapting to playing differently. He's still developing as a player, not making the same impacts in the same way. New season, new players, he's been doing a lot of hard work but we're a team that's not really settled but is on a run of form. It's one game at a time for us, they're all different.

At the moment, I don't know where he'll be most effective. Will he be more useful in a deeper position with more occasional bursts into the box or will he be doing the exact opposite. I think that he's going to have to learn to be more selective in his decision making as to whether he holds or attacks. Last season he had such a free role, even in defence. He'd just hassle their midfield and forwards with the ball. He was great at it but sometimes you have to drop back further and defend the space rather than risking ending up the wrong side of the guy with the ball and with him charging into the space you just vacated.