Lack of creativity

[Pretty Boy Lee]

Truth is though that our game has been carbonbase copy of Blackburns under Hughes

that is absolute bollocks mate. what do you base that on, because we put some crosses into the box? come on. scoring the goals was not the problem yesterday if you remember.

what impressed me yesterday was that we actually broke down a side who came and "parked the bus". we were shit at that last season, so another tick goes in the improved box. what hughes needs to do is sort the team's concentration out; when we get a goal or two ahead we seem to think the game is as good as won - same against arsenal, west ham.

I was going on and on (and on some would say) about Hughes' preferred tactics of 4-4-2 with two deep lying central midfielders and two wingers pushing forward, meaning there's efectively only four players doing attacking. I was hammered for saying that. That is EXACTLY the system we have been playing in past three games. Whether that's something Hughes is looking into or his long term preferred system remains to be seen.

If you are impressed with the way Hughes has set us in past three games then great. I am not. I'm sure you will get Douglas Higginbotham and Grob agreeing with you. Game of opinions.

For once you have made a damning statement and I have to agree. I'm not so sure he is trying to turn us into Rovers, but the fatc is 2 def mids has boggled my mind lately. Gaz Baz and Ireland were doing fine start of the yr and we weren't leaking goals, I know De Jong wants games, but he is going have to accept the fact that a player with his limited attacking guile will not always be required in the middle of the park.

Hughes showed me some balls by playing with Barry as our most def mindind midfielder early on, I'd like to think he will go back down that route some time soon.

[Rag_hater]

Can't see why people are moaning about the lack of creativity.
That was Hughes team playing out there yesterday,and he left our most creative player on the bench, preferring to play two defensivley minded midfielders.
I think he prefers a defensive set up shown by the fact he left he left Ireland on the bench.
Thats the way he likes this team to play so we should get used to it.
I think the fact that he got rid of an attacking midfielder and replaced him with a defesive one tells the story.
And he spent 18mil on NDJ he is hardly gonna leave him on the bench admiting he may be surplus to what we need.

[Pretty Boy Lee]

Can't see why people are moaning about the lack of creativity.
That was Hughes team playing out there yesterday,and he left our most creative player on the bench, preferring to play two defensivley minded midfielders.
I think he prefers a defensive set up shown by the fact he left he left Ireland on the bench.
Thats the way he likes this team to play so we should get used to it.
I think the fact that he got rid of an attacking midfielder and replaced him with a defesive one tells the story.
And he spent 18mil on NDJ he is hardly gonna leave him on the bench admiting he may be surplus to what we need.

Played without him plenty at start of the season. Appears too gun shy to do it again, but the over the top stuff you post can't be objective at all can it?

[ant london]

Errrrrrm 'scuse me slag. I wasn't moaning about 442, I'm saying that the flair players from last season aren't as effective in a 442 formation. Robbie and shaun aren't out and out wingers like they need to be in 442, they are like right and left forwards when they are most effective, and Ireland isn't banging them in and setting them up like he was as he is sitting back to much as an out and out CM instead of being an attacking midfielder.

Yeah I know but our "flair players" in SWP and Ireland have been utter wank....I'm not sure that would have changed in a 433 as they look shadows of last season's players. And our other flair player is crocked. So it's kind of a moot point.

I do see what you are driving at, I just don't think that deploying a 433 on current availability/form would get us anywhere further or faster.

The main issue is the defence going to bastard sleep for me. It's so annoying as Bridge is in cracking form (mainly) and yet our defensive unit looks appalling these last couple of games. They had looked pretty solid at the outset (not perfect but miles better than they do currently).

[david yearsley]

He should have found space for Ireland yesterday but isn´t that what we need , competition for every place in every game?
We´ve got the strength in depth to have that and eventually the best starting 11 will emerge with more consistent performances

[Blueboylewis]

In the first half we wasnt lacking to much creativity but when it came to the second half and the score becomes 2-2, Then we just started going route 1, launching balls forward looking for an opening but that just wasnt happening. Ade brought a few down yeh but we can be much more effective with the ball on the floor.

We miss robbie because he has that creativity that we are lacking a bit. Ireland needs to start next game. Hopefully scunny on wednesday so he can bring himself back in.

[Rag_hater]

Besides Ireland and Robson which creative players have we got?Ireland he inherrited and Robson a show of strength by the Sheikh.
What did Hughes do to getting anybody who was creative in the summer.I think it was nothing,he seems to want players that will give him a good workrate.
I think he likes sweaty men and hardcases

[Bingo Lewis]

Errrrrrm 'scuse me slag. I wasn't moaning about 442, I'm saying that the flair players from last season aren't as effective in a 442 formation. Robbie and shaun aren't out and out wingers like they need to be in 442, they are like right and left forwards when they are most effective, and Ireland isn't banging them in and setting them up like he was as he is sitting back to much as an out and out CM instead of being an attacking midfielder.

Yeah I know but our "flair players" in SWP and Ireland have been utter wank....I'm not sure that would have changed in a 433 as they look shadows of last season's players. And our other flair player is crocked. So it's kind of a moot point.

I do see what you are driving at, I just don't think that deploying a 433 on current availability/form would get us anywhere further or faster.

The main issue is the defence going to bastard sleep for me. It's so annoying as Bridge is in cracking form (mainly) and yet our defensive unit looks appalling these last couple of games. They had looked pretty solid at the outset (not perfect but miles better than they do currently).

Mate, I'm not moaning. I was putting forward a reason why the 3 mentioned aren't playing as they were last season.
I'm happy with whatever formation works best.

[Bingo Lewis]

Errrrrrm 'scuse me slag. I wasn't moaning about 442, I'm saying that the flair players from last season aren't as effective in a 442 formation. Robbie and shaun aren't out and out wingers like they need to be in 442, they are like right and left forwards when they are most effective, and Ireland isn't banging them in and setting them up like he was as he is sitting back to much as an out and out CM instead of being an attacking midfielder.

Yeah I know but our "flair players" in SWP and Ireland have been utter wank....I'm not sure that would have changed in a 433 as they look shadows of last season's players. And our other flair player is crocked. So it's kind of a moot point.

I do see what you are driving at, I just don't think that deploying a 433 on current availability/form would get us anywhere further or faster.

The main issue is the defence going to bastard sleep for me. It's so annoying as Bridge is in cracking form (mainly) and yet our defensive unit looks appalling these last couple of games. They had looked pretty solid at the outset (not perfect but miles better than they do currently).

Mate, I'm not moaning. I was putting forward a reason why the 3 mentioned aren't playing as they were last season.
I'm happy with whatever formation works best.

Oh, and I wore my fez to the game yesterday.
LAHAD has got the evidence.

[ant london]

haha touch of class!!

LAHAD....get it displayed young man!!

Yeah and on a re-read I can see you weren't moaning so apologies for lumping you in with some others

[The Man In Blue]

I was going on and on (and on some would say) about Hughes' preferred tactics of 4-4-2 with two deep lying central midfielders and two wingers pushing forward, meaning there's efectively only four players doing attacking. I was hammered for saying that.

right. you didn't explain that at all in yr post, you said "lack of creativity in cm". you also completely failed to address the other part of my response, which was to explain why you think we need more creativity when we score two goals (and thinking about it more, we could have had a couple more but for some excellent keeping by schwartzer). attack is fine, just because we are not scoring 22-pass total football style goals all the time does not mean we lack creativity. granted its not been as scintillating as some of the games last season (when fulham beat us 1-3) - but Robbie is injured and Ireland is not 100%, and these are our two most creative players.

come on, it is the defence that needs sorting - if they would have done their jobs we would be talking about sitting 3rd with a game in hand and this thread would not exist.

[Twobob]

I cant agree too much with the lack of creativity and considering the system that we've been playing has seen us unbeaten at home and only loose one match away - we got ourselves into some very good possitions yesterday and

we've scored goals against Very well organised definsive teams ... Fulham included.

However the issue I do see, is when we're infront or away from home we struggle on the counter without Stevie or Rob to pick out forward passes when the opposition is pressing for an equaliser and have lost posession (i.e. we need a De-Jong & Stevie or Barry and Stevie combo in the midle of the park).

However Yesteday - the errors were defensive NOT Creative, there were two teams on the pitch yesterday and we've not won that much to make us start thinking we're invincable just yet and that teams will roll over for us just so we can play pretty.

[Colin the King]

Last season we played our most scintillating football with a 4-3-3 system. SWP and Robinho as wide forwards with one of Caicedo/Benjani/Jo through the middle. We had one defensively minded midfielder (Kompany) and two attacking ones (Ireland and Elano). With that system and those players we thrashed Portsmouth 6-0, Hull 5-1 and Stoke 3-0. It wasn't flawless either and away from home we had a soft underbelly but I'd like us to try it again, as this time we have a world-class striker to link effectively in Adebayor, a more complete midfielder in Barry and defenders who are more comfortable in possession (yesterday excepted).

I really do believe in playing a possession orientated game and passing the ball to death until eventually the opposition tires and loses concentration- Arsenal do this and regularly score 4 or 5 at home. It's much easier for a defensive unit like Fulham to deal with us in our current state, in particular for Hangeland yesterday. Those long balls into the box were food and drink to him. Where they might have struggled was with us knocking the ball around them, inviting them onto the ball and exploiting the spaces in behind as opposed to the direct approach we took.

We have defensive problems but some of it is self inflicted. We're putting ourselves under pressure by giving the ball away cheaply whereas if we were on the ball 65-70% of the time there'd be less opportunity for the defence itself to be exploited.

As Bingo points out, SWP and especially Robinho will never look brilliant as wingers- as wide forwards I genuinely believe they'd both have been a great deal better so far. Also the 4-3-3 system which allows them to be at their best also gives Ireland the license to attack and make those clever darts into the box.

[john68]

D'yer know Eoin....I'd go with that mate.
If teams have to some extent worked us out, maybe a change and a plan B would be just the thing to freshen us up.

[The Man In Blue]

I really do believe in playing a possession orientated game and passing the ball to death until eventually the opposition tires and loses concentration- Arsenal do this and regularly score 4 or 5 at home. It's much easier for a defensive unit like Fulham to deal with us in our current state, in particular for Hangeland yesterday. Those long balls into the box were food and drink to him. Where they might have struggled was with us knocking the ball around them, inviting them onto the ball and exploiting the spaces in behind as opposed to the direct approach we took.

agree with most of yr post mate, especially about the 4-3-3. but i still think my earlier point stands - Hangeland and co were breached twice, and Schwarzer also had to make two awesome saves to keep out Bridge and de Jong. if the defence had not gone to sleep after we got the second, we would be talking about a comfortable 2-0 win.

[mr_nool]

I really do believe in playing a possession orientated game and passing the ball to death until eventually the opposition tires and loses concentration- Arsenal do this and regularly score 4 or 5 at home. It's much easier for a defensive unit like Fulham to deal with us in our current state, in particular for Hangeland yesterday. Those long balls into the box were food and drink to him. Where they might have struggled was with us knocking the ball around them, inviting them onto the ball and exploiting the spaces in behind as opposed to the direct approach we took.

agree with most of yr post mate, especially about the 4-3-3. but i still think my earlier point stands - Hangeland and co were breached twice, and Schwarzer also had to make two awesome saves to keep out Bridge and de Jong. if the defence had not gone to sleep after we got the second, we would be talking about a comfortable 2-0 win.

You seem to forget Zamora fluffing it from 1.5 yards and a bunch of other good Fulham chances. Or do only Citys close calls count when playing the "what if"-game?

[bluej]

I really do believe in playing a possession orientated game and passing the ball to death until eventually the opposition tires and loses concentration- Arsenal do this and regularly score 4 or 5 at home. It's much easier for a defensive unit like Fulham to deal with us in our current state, in particular for Hangeland yesterday. Those long balls into the box were food and drink to him. Where they might have struggled was with us knocking the ball around them, inviting them onto the ball and exploiting the spaces in behind as opposed to the direct approach we took.

agree with most of yr post mate, especially about the 4-3-3. but i still think my earlier point stands - Hangeland and co were breached twice, and Schwarzer also had to make two awesome saves to keep out Bridge and de Jong. if the defence had not gone to sleep after we got the second, we would be talking about a comfortable 2-0 win.

You seem to forget Zamora fluffing it from 1.5 yards and a bunch of other good Fulham chances. Or do only Citys close calls count when playing the "what if"-game?

Again though, that's the defence - not a lack of creativity.

[The Man In Blue]

I really do believe in playing a possession orientated game and passing the ball to death until eventually the opposition tires and loses concentration- Arsenal do this and regularly score 4 or 5 at home. It's much easier for a defensive unit like Fulham to deal with us in our current state, in particular for Hangeland yesterday. Those long balls into the box were food and drink to him. Where they might have struggled was with us knocking the ball around them, inviting them onto the ball and exploiting the spaces in behind as opposed to the direct approach we took.

agree with most of yr post mate, especially about the 4-3-3. but i still think my earlier point stands - Hangeland and co were breached twice, and Schwarzer also had to make two awesome saves to keep out Bridge and de Jong. if the defence had not gone to sleep after we got the second, we would be talking about a comfortable 2-0 win.

You seem to forget Zamora fluffing it from 1.5 yards and a bunch of other good Fulham chances. Or do only Citys close calls count when playing the "what if"-game?

true, but point stands imo. attack did its job, defence was at fault. although how zamora missed that i will never know. (when your sat in row z and the ball hits your head, thats zamora!) cant remember fulham having that many good chances - they looked much more dangerous as soon as we scored the second. the defence needs to be able to soak up the post goal pressure, or the work the attack does is meaningless.

[mr_nool]

I really do believe in playing a possession orientated game and passing the ball to death until eventually the opposition tires and loses concentration- Arsenal do this and regularly score 4 or 5 at home. It's much easier for a defensive unit like Fulham to deal with us in our current state, in particular for Hangeland yesterday. Those long balls into the box were food and drink to him. Where they might have struggled was with us knocking the ball around them, inviting them onto the ball and exploiting the spaces in behind as opposed to the direct approach we took.

agree with most of yr post mate, especially about the 4-3-3. but i still think my earlier point stands - Hangeland and co were breached twice, and Schwarzer also had to make two awesome saves to keep out Bridge and de Jong. if the defence had not gone to sleep after we got the second, we would be talking about a comfortable 2-0 win.

You seem to forget Zamora fluffing it from 1.5 yards and a bunch of other good Fulham chances. Or do only Citys close calls count when playing the "what if"-game?

true, but point stands imo. attack did its job, defence was at fault. although how zamora missed that i will never know. (when your sat in row z and the ball hits your head, thats zamora!) cant remember fulham having that many good chances - they looked much more dangerous as soon as we scored the second. the defence needs to be able to soak up the post goal pressure, or the work the attack does is meaningless.

Agree with that, mate, but I do seem to remeber bricking it a few times - both in the first and second half (remember what's his face screwing up a one on one with Given).

[mcfc1632]

My approach would be to solve this issue and the one in the Rob thread by playing Rob in an advanced CM role behind Ade

He was wasted on the left at RM because of the CMs they have carry such cult status they could not be changed - we do not have that impediment !!

I would determine my standard set up and only change for particular games where there is a clear need to be more defensive, meaning that I do have my 'spine' identified and could flex around that.

So the given starters for me (for the rest of the season and ignoring the ANC callups) would be:

Given, Toure and Bridge (in the obvious positions)

Ade

with Rob and Tevez behind him and Barry behind them

That is 7 positions that are taken and 4 up for grabs

RB and Left CB are clearly fixed positions - so it is just a question of who is in form

That leaves 2 - for variation

I feel that our options would be much better if our full backs could provide the width to put crosses in with MF providing cover. Bridge can do this, but Richards is a plank and Zab is wonderful - but not really up to getting down the wing and putting in good crosses - I hate saying that cos he is a genuine player and I would like him full time - but I think that we need a RB that can do what Glen Johnson does - but that can defend - so we need to buy.

So for the RB spot in the meantime I would genuinely consider SWP at RB - and I know a lot will laugh, but just consider:

He would get down the wing
He has a football brain and could link up - turn defence into attack
He could put crosses in (I know some improvement required)
He would be a 'bonus' in purring more creativity into the team from an unexpected position
He will get up and down in a way that particular Richards is incapable of and
He can tackle - he has been in this role before - so he will be a better RB than Richards would be

Re the left CB - well I would still go with Lescott - for me the jury is out - but I do not believe that he is anything like as bad as some of the posts I have been reading - and I love the idea of 3 naturally left footers covering that flank - I think that it will become the best left side in the PL over a short time.

So that leaves us with the 2 variations and some serious players to be accommodated:

Bellers, Petrov, Stevie & de jong.

By not putting Vince, RSC in that group I am stating them to be squad players that will get their chance when rotation is required, injuries etc.

Of the 4 'to be accommodated' - well it would be tough to drop any - they have each made big claims - but this is the thing about having such a powerful squad and these are the decisions the manager is paid to sort - but at least it comes down to some simple choices if you do have your 'base team' - and I have to say that I do not believe that it is any coincidence that some of these players have performed so well because they NEED to - great isn't it?

At the moment you would find it hard to drop Bellers - so you would want to find a place - probably on the right or left depending on your other choices - this will change when he gets injured or loses form - if he does neither of these things - well great

So for me the other player would be a MF, either Stevie or NDJ - probably depending on the opposition - although at the moment Nigel is in the driving seat - leaving Petrov and Stevie on the bench - and I would make sure that they are used as early as possible in games to bring in more 'creativity' if this is required. This is terribly unfair on Petrov - but I would work hard to keep him sweet - get him on as early in a game as poss - make him the Bellers replacement (love the quality of his crosses) - start him in games where it can be accommodated.

Sorry - but that is more (or at least equal) creativity than any other team in the PL

But putting Rob in that role would make the most creative player in the planet in a position where he can set up goals 'for fun' for the other team members and I think that it would be wonderful to watch

All this 'anti-Rob' stuff is building upon a perceived 'weak nature of his character' - fuck that - we have one of the world's best on our books - can we please see him alongside top players to see if it works

It is all about opinions...