The dawn of realisation.

[trout man]

I think yesterday was the day when a lot of City fans realised just where we are with this 'project' at the moment. When we compare City with the likes of Arsenal and Chelsea and even Villa, it is not difficult to see the glaring gap between the teams and in respect of Arsenal and Villa, the only positive we have is the depth of our squad for the season ahead may just help us bridge the gap...providing they have key injuries throughout the season. Watching Arsenal and Villa last night, their sense of composure was palpable and their willingness to work for each other in a cohesive unit was outstanding. They know what they are about and are comfortable on all the ball, their primary achillies heel is the the depth of their squads.

This season from a City fans perspective is going to require patience and lots of it. We are not playing for each other at the moment, we are not a cohesive unit and our defence is quite frankly in rag order. If I had one major objection to the training of the team I would have to highlight the defence. We dont seem to attack balls coming into our box particularly from set pieces, we have a reactive form of defence instead of proactive. Are we zonal marking or man marking, we seem to be concentrating on issues such as positioning and not attacking the ball convincingly when it arrives in our box...is the art of hardcore defending being watered down with too many tactics....? Defending is an art, not complex, more conditioned learning but does require a depth of character and physical ability to do well, that is Richard,s problem, he has the physique but I dont believe he has the character or tactical intelligence...can that be taught?

Tevez has not performed since arriving at City, Ireland is playing balls that are intuitive and there seems to be a lack of ability to regularly run on to these balls and slot them home. Yesterday, Ireland played two great balls into the box and there was no-one there to meet them because our players had either checked their run or changed direction...at one point Ireland, after paying a great ball that no-one ran on to looked skyward and rolled his eyes..they are exhibiting signs of not being comfortable with each other. This problem can be layed firmly at Hughes door for it is his job to sort out these and the other fundamental issues that need to be addressed, but these things take time...just how much time is enough is the key question.

There is the faint sound of shattering glass in the minds of City fans at the moment as they realise that those secret hopes of actually winning the premiership this year are disappearing/gone and lets be honest, a lot of us, perhaps most of us, thought that could be a possibility; so now we are the point of lets hope we make it into the top four with a massive shit fight with Villa, Spurs,and Liverpool all fighting for the same spot.....doesnt seem like a given now does it?

We may then have to understand that if we make it into the top six...our best ever position in the prem...is that good enough?? Its a rollercoaster, it always has been and this season is going to be no different, its just this time we are on the scary rides because we think we are big eough to ride on it.

Oh and I still want that cup final though.

[dazby]

Yeah, go on. I'll credit this post. Some pretty good comments in this.

[trout man]

Yeah, go on. I'll credit this post. Some pretty good comments in this.

Ta Dazby, just thought I might say what I am sure many of us are thinking, but in a strange way I am fascinated with this season as I think as a set of fans we are learning how to deal with new found wealth and expectancy....and the mental baggage that comes with supporting an alleged top four side.

[Blue2]

Sorry, but just excuses for non- performance.

[Bluez]

Good post, anyone mentions team balance and players getting to know each other. Teams take time to gel is something you will hear being discussed about any team, but for some reason if you spend millions that doesn't count anymore. Drogba went into an excellent Chelsea team and was crap the first season. That was a quality player with other quality players, yet even he need time. not 8 games, 38 games.

[Crossie]

Our great start spoiled us.

It took the pressue of us that has now come, and should have been expected from the start, we have a very inexperienced (as a team) back 4 playing together for the first time, they rode their luck in the first 3 games.

I remember the Westham game, and Arsenal at home, i was so impressed with the effort and closing down and willingness to win, so determined, it was fantastic.

That has gone now.

Question is why.

[trout man]

Sorry, but just excuses for non- performance.

I am not making excuses for anyone, with perhaps the exception of us as fans. Perhaps we are the ones with the problem, I am not trying to say that we shouldnt be slightly disappointed with the recent run of results but the fact is we have lost fewer games than any other team in the premiership and just because we have all this money, we believe we should be doing better...I dont think we are far from the position that Hughes and his management team expected at this juncture though I do believe even they are possibly disappointed with the results. If we are in the top four at Christmas I will see that as a major success and if we are in the top six then we are doing ok and hopefully we will be close enough to mount a campaign for the top four come the end of the season. I believe if we are still in the competition for a top four spot in April it will have been a good season.

I want to enjoy what City have become but I still see our vintage years as being a year or two away, like all good things, it comes to those who wait.

[crossan]

Great post trout man,I want to add that unfortunately Mark Hughes will not take us to the expected level desired by the owners,he can neither motivate nor discipline under performers in the team.......Lescott,Tevez,Bridge to name but 3.we can hope for top 6 at best we are not up there with the likes of Chelsea,Arsenal or the Rags,the next few games will see if a change is needed,its shit or bust.

[Douglas Higginbottom]

OK after missing 2 days whilst things calmed down I looked in today at a few threads and posts and saw the inevitable Hughes out negative stuff and a few in defence of where we are now. This thread seemed more reasonable than most so I thought I would throw my 2 penneth in. I seem to have a reputation of being pro Hughes which is ok to a point as I am very positive about what has happened in the background plus the signings he has made both in terms of quality and character plus I like that we are tougher to beat etc etc BUT on the other side I am fully aware that Hughes has yet to prove that he can manage a top side with top players to actually win things. One thing I am also sure of is that Hughes is also very aware that he has yet to prove that.

As for our current position I see it as OK from a points/stats/facts standpoint . We are 6th with a game in hand that could put us 4th BUT we are playing poorly. We have had some good parts in games but overall we haven't yet played a really good 90 minutes and the big question we are all asking is why. Of course some will just blame Hughes because he can't motivate players or is picking the wrong formation or just the wrong players. I don't buy that.

I don't accept the motivation thing at all. Apart from anything else in the situation we are in the players shouldnt need any serious motivating. Question marks have be thrown around about Stevie and Petrov not being in the side and being unhappy but such comments will always be made about a team with a big squad of quality players. If it wasnt those 2 it would be the players left out for them. Mostly these concerns are raised by press or fan speculation rather than any known dissent of the players concerned. We are only a 1/4 of the way into the season for god's sake!!!!! I could be wrong and there will be some super intelligent folk on here telling me I am but it's just opinion.

Is the formation wrong? I think we should be playing 4.3.3 like the majority seem to think but again that's just opinion again.And that 4.3.3 should have Stevie in it. What I do think for certain is that irrespective of what formation we use we should be playing better than we are.The players we have should be able to play any formation.

Is it down to the players? To an extent I think it is.No doubt at all defensively we are looking average at best but strangely I am more concerned about our attacking play and control of games. I am worried that Ade has gone ridiculously off the boil and Tevez just isn't doing enough in the key areas. As a team we are too quick to give the ball away rather than push teams back and work them in the final 3rd.

Time to gel is an interesting phrase but the fact is it does take time. I keep saying Ireland is key for the team but it does seem that Tevez and Ade are not yet on his wavelength like Robinho was. I expect it will come and I just hope that Hughes perseveres a bit longer with Stevie to make it happen and hopefully in a 4.3.3 which allows Stevie more of a free attacking role. In doing this though the man management and motivation part becomes increasingly important.

There is an argument for leaving players in the side to try to build an understanding together rather than just dropping them after a poor game or 2.It seems crazy to buy the talent and then give only a few games. And in the scheme of things we have only played a few games.But at the same time there is an argument for leaving players out to give the likes of Weiss a run to show that chances will be given if perfromances are not good.

It's a balanced judgement and from what I see I don't honestly think Hughes has got it right yet. He is trying to show faith and some of the players are not repaying that faith. I hope and expect he is being quite tough behind the scenes whilst at the same time showing a calm ( as calm as he can) exterior to the press. I thought he was seething after the Burnley game ( especially as it it's now 3 in a row) and only just held it together. Time will tell.

As for the defence, well I am not sure what to say. Bridge was getting plenty of really good reports this year and now suddenly he has become a disaster again. Mostly all he did wrong was to break forward at the wrong times and thus be out of position when we lost the ball. An error maybe but worse was the way we lost the ball and others didn't react to cover and either prevent crosses or cover the runners.

Lescott also has got some terrible stick. I have some difficulty defending him even though I like to see the positive rather than negatives.He hasn't been that bad but there is a hesitancy there which is worrying. Straightforward for me is that if we have a quality guy waiting to play in the position then bring him in.

Toure is fine although not perfect. If he isn't 100% fit he shouldnt play but I like him there as a good captain and talker. Zabba should be the right back end of story.

Whatever happens I would like to see Hughes be brave. Decide on an approach but it needs to include picking players in form and if that means leaving very expensive players out the sobeit.

[gazeth]

Great post trout man,I want to add that unfortunately Mark Hughes will not take us to the expected level desired by the owners,he can neither motivate nor discipline under performers in the team.......Lescott,Tevez,Bridge to name but 3.we can hope for top 6 at best we are not up there with the likes of Chelsea,Arsenal or the Rags,the next few games will see if a change is needed,its shit or bust.

This is one thing that I see week in, week out on forums, people stating what Hughes can and can't do; how do you know he hasn't got the ability to motivate these players or discipline them are you there in training day-in, day-out? I didn't think so!

I'll be the first to admit that our defending has been poor this season but I don't think that it's been helped by the fact that we have not had a settled back 4 (due to injuries, players arriving, players leaving etc.), how are they supposed to gain an understanding when they've only played a handful of games together?
I think that once the current back 4 get a few more games under their belts together we will see a remarked improvement in our results.

[avoidconfusion]

Top top post Doug, as usual!

Wholeheartedly agree.

[carl_feedthegoat]

OK after missing 2 days whilst things calmed down I looked in today at a few threads and posts and saw the inevitable Hughes out negative stuff and a few in defence of where we are now. This thread seemed more reasonable than most so I thought I would throw my 2 penneth in. I seem to have a reputation of being pro Hughes which is ok to a point as I am very positive about what has happened in the background plus the signings he has made both in terms of quality and character plus I like that we are tougher to beat etc etc BUT on the other side I am fully aware that Hughes has yet to prove that he can manage a top side with top players to actually win things. One thing I am also sure of is that Hughes is also very aware that he has yet to prove that.

As for our current position I see it as OK from a points/stats/facts standpoint . We are 6th with a game in hand that could put us 4th BUT we are playing poorly. We have had some good parts in games but overall we haven't yet played a really good 90 minutes and the big question we are all asking is why. Of course some will just blame Hughes because he can't motivate players or is picking the wrong formation or just the wrong players. I don't buy that.

I don't accept the motivation thing at all. Apart from anything else in the situation we are in the players shouldnt need any serious motivating. Question marks have be thrown around about Stevie and Petrov not being in the side and being unhappy but such comments will always be made about a team with a big squad of quality players. If it wasnt those 2 it would be the players left out for them. Mostly these concerns are raised by press or fan speculation rather than any known dissent of the players concerned. We are only a 1/4 of the way into the season for god's sake!!!!! I could be wrong and there will be some super intelligent folk on here telling me I am but it's just opinion.

Is the formation wrong? I think we should be playing 4.3.3 like the majority seem to think but again that's just opinion again.And that 4.3.3 should have Stevie in it. What I do think for certain is that irrespective of what formation we use we should be playing better than we are.The players we have should be able to play any formation.

Is it down to the players? To an extent I think it is.No doubt at all defensively we are looking average at best but strangely I am more concerned about our attacking play and control of games. I am worried that Ade has gone ridiculously off the boil and Tevez just isn't doing enough in the key areas. As a team we are too quick to give the ball away rather than push teams back and work them in the final 3rd.

Time to gel is an interesting phrase but the fact is it does take time. I keep saying Ireland is key for the team but it does seem that Tevez and Ade are not yet on his wavelength like Robinho was. I expect it will come and I just hope that Hughes perseveres a bit longer with Stevie to make it happen and hopefully in a 4.3.3 which allows Stevie more of a free attacking role. In doing this though the man management and motivation part becomes increasingly important.

There is an argument for leaving players in the side to try to build an understanding together rather than just dropping them after a poor game or 2.It seems crazy to buy the talent and then give only a few games. And in the scheme of things we have only played a few games.But at the same time there is an argument for leaving players out to give the likes of Weiss a run to show that chances will be given if perfromances are not good.

It's a balanced judgement and from what I see I don't honestly think Hughes has got it right yet. He is trying to show faith and some of the players are not repaying that faith. I hope and expect he is being quite tough behind the scenes whilst at the same time showing a calm ( as calm as he can) exterior to the press. I thought he was seething after the Burnley game ( especially as it it's now 3 in a row) and only just held it together. Time will tell.

As for the defence, well I am not sure what to say. Bridge was getting plenty of really good reports this year and now suddenly he has become a disaster again. Mostly all he did wrong was to break forward at the wrong times and thus be out of position when we lost the ball. An error maybe but worse was the way we lost the ball and others didn't react to cover and either prevent crosses or cover the runners.

Lescott also has got some terrible stick. I have some difficulty defending him even though I like to see the positive rather than negatives.He hasn't been that bad but there is a hesitancy there which is worrying. Straightforward for me is that if we have a quality guy waiting to play in the position then bring him in.

Toure is fine although not perfect. If he isn't 100% fit he shouldnt play but I like him there as a good captain and talker. Zabba should be the right back end of story.

Whatever happens I would like to see Hughes be brave. Decide on an approach but it needs to include picking players in form and if that means leaving very expensive players out the sobeit.

TAHTS ABOUT THE MOST UNBIASED (FOR A CHANGE) REPORT YOU HAVE EVER DONE - WELL DONE - THERE AGAIN IT,S NOT HARD TO ADMIT WE ARE PLAYING SHIT AND HAVE BEEN FOR A WHILE.

I CANT ADD MUCH MORE ONTO WHAT YOU HAVE SAID BUT I WOULD INDEED DROP LESCOTT FOR THE POOL MATCH AND ALSO TEVEZ----PETROV HAS BEEN PLAYING VERY WELL AND SHOULD BE IN THE STARTING LINE UP...WHO REPLACES LESCOTT ?.....WHOS FIT ?

[Douglas Higginbottom]

It's 2 weeks before we play again and the chances are everybody might be fit. I think we all know that Lescott and Toure are almost nailed on to start that game. I can easily live with that but it should be with some kind of understanding that if it doesnt come right quickly then changes have to be made. Just as Lescott is starting to work at set pieces too!

But there is a part of me that wants Nedum to get the chance and grab it with both hands. He might not be the dominating centre back in the air but he has a presence , is quick and strong and after the way he played in the 2nd half of last year he desreves a go. He is fit now and just needs some match practice.

[CITYTILLIDIE11]

Good post mate, sort of had me swaying, then I reminded myself.

We are absolutely diabolical all over the pitch, not because of just school boy errors that can be attributed to not understanding your new colleagues, but because we are lacking the very fundamental basics off football, we are unable to defend as a cohesive unit, not picking up the opposition, we also have the management decisions during games, baffling game plans and substitutions, it makes me laugh how some forensically analyze team formations week in week out 4-4-2 4-3-3 etc, its not the systems we are playing that are wrong, its how we are playing as a unit within the system.


For instance how come when we play with a 4-3-3 do we look like we have no midfield, the same with a 4-4-2,that’s not a problem with the system, but the basics like players positioning them selves within the formation, right backs going AWOL,left backs going AWOL, centere halfs going AWOL etc etc, ,this is basic stuff that should be done on a training pitch week in week out, it wont matter what system we play if we cant get the fcuking basics right.

the players are now starting to be affected, last season it was Micah ,Bridge and Dunne,even Hart copped it for our dismal defending, new season same old story just different names copping it from the boo boys,Lescott,Micah,Ireland who was our player of the season last year, even Robinho has copped it from some fans, we are talking world class players that are struggling.

I blame the manager and the coaching staff, not the players we have an excellent team, stop looking for fcuking excuses to get Hughes of the hook.

If we had started off badly this argument might of held a bit of weight.

The players actually look like great signings when they come and then progressively get worse each week, all that they are good at looks like it is being coached out of them.

[Original Dub]

Good post mate, sort of had me swaying, then I reminded myself.

We are absolutely diabolical all over the pitch, not because of just school boy errors that can be attributed to not understanding your new colleagues, but because we are lacking the very fundamental basics off football, we are unable to defend as a cohesive unit, not picking up the opposition, we also have the management decisions during games, baffling game plans and substitutions, it makes me laugh how some forensically analyze team formations week in week out 4-4-2 4-3-3 etc, its not the systems we are playing that are wrong, its how we are playing as a unit within the system.


For instance how come when we play with a 4-3-3 do we look like we have no midfield, the same with a 4-4-2,that’s not a problem with the system, but the basics like players positioning them selves within the formation, right backs going AWOL,left backs going AWOL, centere halfs going AWOL etc etc, ,this is basic stuff that should be done on a training pitch week in week out, it wont matter what system we play if we cant get the fcuking basics right.

the players are now starting to be affected, last season it was Micah ,Bridge and Dunne,even Hart copped it for our dismal defending, new season same old story just different names copping it from the boo boys,Lescott,Micah,Ireland who was our player of the season last year, even Robinho has copped it from some fans, we are talking world class players that are struggling.

I blame the manager and the coaching staff, not the players we have an excellent team, stop looking for fcuking excuses to get Hughes of the hook.

If we had started off badly this argument might of held a bit of weight.

The players actually look like great signings when they come and then progressively get worse each week, all that they are good at looks like it is being coached out of them.

No way?!

[CITYTILLIDIE11]

Good post mate, sort of had me swaying, then I reminded myself.

We are absolutely diabolical all over the pitch, not because of just school boy errors that can be attributed to not understanding your new colleagues, but because we are lacking the very fundamental basics off football, we are unable to defend as a cohesive unit, not picking up the opposition, we also have the management decisions during games, baffling game plans and substitutions, it makes me laugh how some forensically analyze team formations week in week out 4-4-2 4-3-3 etc, its not the systems we are playing that are wrong, its how we are playing as a unit within the system.


For instance how come when we play with a 4-3-3 do we look like we have no midfield, the same with a 4-4-2,that’s not a problem with the system, but the basics like players positioning them selves within the formation, right backs going AWOL,left backs going AWOL, centere halfs going AWOL etc etc, ,this is basic stuff that should be done on a training pitch week in week out, it wont matter what system we play if we cant get the fcuking basics right.

the players are now starting to be affected, last season it was Micah ,Bridge and Dunne,even Hart copped it for our dismal defending, new season same old story just different names copping it from the boo boys,Lescott,Micah,Ireland who was our player of the season last year, even Robinho has copped it from some fans, we are talking world class players that are struggling.

I blame the manager and the coaching staff, not the players we have an excellent team, stop looking for fcuking excuses to get Hughes of the hook.

If we had started off badly this argument might of held a bit of weight.

The players actually look like great signings when they come and then progressively get worse each week, all that they are good at looks like it is being coached out of them.

No way?!

you being sarcastic ;-) ?

[Original Dub]

Good post mate, sort of had me swaying, then I reminded myself.

We are absolutely diabolical all over the pitch, not because of just school boy errors that can be attributed to not understanding your new colleagues, but because we are lacking the very fundamental basics off football, we are unable to defend as a cohesive unit, not picking up the opposition, we also have the management decisions during games, baffling game plans and substitutions, it makes me laugh how some forensically analyze team formations week in week out 4-4-2 4-3-3 etc, its not the systems we are playing that are wrong, its how we are playing as a unit within the system.


For instance how come when we play with a 4-3-3 do we look like we have no midfield, the same with a 4-4-2,that’s not a problem with the system, but the basics like players positioning them selves within the formation, right backs going AWOL,left backs going AWOL, centere halfs going AWOL etc etc, ,this is basic stuff that should be done on a training pitch week in week out, it wont matter what system we play if we cant get the fcuking basics right.

the players are now starting to be affected, last season it was Micah ,Bridge and Dunne,even Hart copped it for our dismal defending, new season same old story just different names copping it from the boo boys,Lescott,Micah,Ireland who was our player of the season last year, even Robinho has copped it from some fans, we are talking world class players that are struggling.

I blame the manager and the coaching staff, not the players we have an excellent team, stop looking for fcuking excuses to get Hughes of the hook.

If we had started off badly this argument might of held a bit of weight.

The players actually look like great signings when they come and then progressively get worse each week, all that they are good at looks like it is being coached out of them.

No way?!

you being sarcastic ;-) ?

Just a little bit mate!

[Douglas Higginbottom]

This stuff about players going AWOL is crazy imo. There is nothing wrong with Bridge , Zabba or anyone joining the attack in fact I think it's great to see that happen. But it does need to done sensibly and when it happens others in the team need to recognise what's going on and provide the cover.

The scum lot get the full back's forward a lot as do Arse with Clichy and Sagna , Chelski with Cole and Boswinga and so do all good teams. I totally agree it's part sorted in training but also done with straightfoward nouse and experience. I have seen it plenty of times with City where NDJ/Barry/Lescott have filled in quite nicely but of course there are also times where it isn't sorted and looks shabby as we have seen to our cost. That's why it's work in progress

[Original Dub]

There's no such thing as a work in progress. We should be the finished article now. We have spent money godammit.

[Socrates]

There's no such thing as a work in progress. We should be the finished article now. We have spent money godammit.

But you might find part way through a work in progress that you have bought the wrong materials or the wrong sort of glue?