Our Defence- Long Term

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Our Defence- Long Term

Postby Colin the King » Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:01 am

As we've been talking about in the Vieira thread, the ambition is for City to win the title and eventually conquer Europe. So, if we're to do that it's obviously imperative that we're strong in all areas- I firmly believe in attack we're in fantastic shape and don't think we need reinforcements. Tevez and Bellamy are in outstanding form, Robinho, Santa Cruz and Ade are waiting in the wings, Petrov is flying, as was SWP until he got injured. In midfield we now have de Jong, Vieira, Ireland and Barry to choose from with others capable of filling in- some might say we need another creative player in the middle- but that's another issue. Given is one of the very best, that goes without saying.

Regardless of the fact that we've kept three clean sheets recently, I doubt many would argue that defence is the weakest part of our squad. But let's be ruthless and honest- who, in the long term, is genuinely good enough to play a part in our rise to the top?

This is my breakdown, I'd love to hear what everyone else thinks though-

Lescott- I admired him at Everton and he played a big part in their period of top-six finishes- he's strong, an excellent tackler, a threat from set pieces. But he's easily turned (see van Persie), not the quickest and fairly poor on the ball. A very good Premier League level player, but nowhere near £22million and a little short of being a top level player. I do think though that he hasn't done himself justice and IS better than his early form for us. Always thought he was good at left-back for Everton, so if he's willing to be a squad player, which, if we're in four competitions, would probably mean comfortably 20+ games, he can be very useful.

Touré- He's won the Premier League and been in a European Cup final for a reason. On his day, one of the best in the business with pace, strength, excellent reading of the game and composure on the ball. His undoing towards the end of his time at Arsenal, and in his first six months here, have been lapses in concentration and what seems like poor communication. As our captain he needs to be more vocal and take control of situations. It's a tricky one because on form I'd argue he's comfortably our best defender and takes some beating, it's just a question of whether Mancini can erase the little mistakes. If so, he'll be an integral part of our success.

Richards- He's come in for a lot of criticism but I think people forget how old he is- 21. Most players are breaking through and making the odd appearance at that stage in their career- he's already gone past the 100 mark with us, with 11 England caps thrown in. When he broke through initially, we were all really excited about his future and he seemed to go from strength to strength- he was unstoppable under Sven. Then, he had an abysmal six months last season and that was it- get rid, talentless, etc. Every young player will suffer a dip in form, it's inevitable. But he was improving by around February again and so far this season has been very good. He might have lost a bit of pace but he still has plenty of it, he's a monster in the air, strong in the tackle- the natural attributes are there, so he just needs someone to help him through the tactical side of the game, and there can't be many better than Mancini for that job. A definite keeper for me, if he progresses from where he is now and forgets that rough patch, he'll be a top, top defender.

Zabaleta- Overall, he's been impressive. Excellent on the ball, very much a no-nonsense defender but he still gets forward well on occasions and has excellent delivery from wide. A snip at £6million in the current climate. His downfall has been giving away needless fouls, sometimes in key areas, and has been punished for a lack of pace a few times. If we could iron out the recklessness without taking away his tenacity, he'll have a big part to play, maybe not as first choice, but in the squad. His versatility will come in handy too. He was outstanding for that couple of months last season in midfield.

Kompany- Opinion is really split on Vinnie. Some say he's better in midfield, others in defence. Personally I think his long-term future is at centre-back. He's one of the few players in our backline who has a real footballing brain. He sees opportunities and closes them before they're allowed to materialise, he's excellent (for a defender) on the ball and deals with balls in the air with ease. Just needs to keep his hands by his side and stop tugging at shirts and giving away fouls (bit like Zabs in that respect) but I think he has all the attributes to take on the world. Another bargain, too.

Onuoha- A fantastic talent, he has everything required to be a City legend but it's those bloody injuries and I really feel for him because had he stayed free of them, he'd probably be nearing the 200 mark for us by now. A really solid, no-nonsense defender with the right attitude, but it pains me to say I doubt he'll ever manage to take the opportunity. It's almost inevitable now- gets a run in the team, plays brilliantly for a couple of months and then breaks down, and has to start from scratch. I'd love things to work out but at the moment I wouldn't bet on it.

Bridge- Overall, I think he's been good. Slow start when he signed this time last year but he was improving and started this season in great shape. A poor game and a lambasting from Hansen on the BBC and he's public enemy number one. It's a strange one because I don't see any major weaknesses- he's quick, solid defensively, offers a threat going forward. Doesn't stick the boot in as often as Zabs on the other side but a lot of the time his brain does the hard work- he doesn't need to lunge in because he's aware of what's in front of him and positions himself well. I just don't think a couple of bad games (in which everyone was shite, lest we forget) is enough to rule him out and I think, from a defensive point of view, he's one of the best full backs in England. It's a tricky position to find great players- the star names likes Lahm, Abidal, and going back a bit, Carlos, are/were appalling defensively. I want, first and foremost, defenders who can defend adequately and I really believe Bridge is one of the best in a relatively weak bunch.

Sylvinho- My impression is that he was brought in more as an influential figure, someone for the youngsters to look up to and learn from, maybe leading into a coaching role, which he's talked about- but he's criminally lacking in pace and that, quite simply, gets punished in this league. He gave the ball away so many times against Spurs and Sunderland, in silly areas, that I can't see him cementing a place in our first team when everyone else is fit. Not the worst stop gap in the world, fair enough, but I think it's more his presence in the dressing room that was Hughes' motivation to bring him to the club and if he's staying it's more likely to be as a staff member, in the long term. Cracking player back in the day mind!

Garrido- Similar to Bridge in that he seemed to be loaded with all the responsibility when things wrong. He cost half nothing, but came into a new league as a 21 year old and performed excellently for six months, suffered a loss in confidence after the 6-0 at Chelsea, and then lost his place in the team to Ball (let's not go there). He does lack pace, and Adam Johnson was getting the better of him until he went off injured last week- but technically he's one of the best. Passing, crossing, set pieces, he has them all nailed down and that, by all accounts, is a result of staying back at training and working harder than most despite being on the fringes for so long. That's the kind of character and commitment I like to see, and I think as a stop-gap in defence, on the wing or even (don't laugh) in an Alonso-type role in midfield he still has a part to play.

So, from that I think we have a lot of good, useful players but are a bit thin on the ground where top quality is concerned. There are a lot of question marks and 'if's surrounding even the first choice guys so I wouldn't be surprised if defence is where we see the biggest investment- maybe not now, but in the summer.
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Re: Our Defence- Long Term

Postby eastlandsblue » Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:27 am

top top post mate, and I fully agree. Manchini by all accounts wants more time with his current crop of defenders, and he will know by the end of may where he needs to improve.
If he does have targets in mind, then maybe he knows they wont be availible untill the summer, and showing a bit of confidence in the defenders now, might spread abit.
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Re: Our Defence- Long Term

Postby CityFanFromRome » Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:29 am

Top post that. Out of our current defence I'd say Richards and Tourè are definitely going to be long term featurers in our back line, although I reckon Richards' place might be at CB and not as RB, he doesn't have the footballing skill to be a top full back imho, if we are to have full backs that bomb forward even only now and then. If our FBs are only going to defend, then he can be a very good one tho. Tourè, well I do think he might go back to his old days but he's also nearing the 30 mark, so maybe we should start looking for a young top CB to grant us many, many years of great service.

Zabba and Bridge, especially Zabba, are probably going to only be cover for their roles, if we go for top FBs on the market. But hey, as you said with four competitions we are going to need a lot of cover and they would be the second choice for RB and LB once we bring in top players in their positions, so they'd still get plenty of goals.

Sylvinho will probably retire soon, while Garrido can provide cover both for LB and LM when we go to 442, but I wouldn't expect him to feature too often.

Lescott is a question mark, if he can regain the Everton form then he's going to be an asset for us this season, and possibly the following one or two, but in time we will probably find better CBs than him.

Onuoha and Kompany imho are going to be quality cover, especially if we go for more CBs in the market. Realistically, with four competitions we will probably need at least five or six players able to play as CBs considering injuries, suspensions, etc. so with Tourè, Lescott, Richards these two complete our needs for that position, but barely.

I agree that there are many "if" regarding especially Tourè and Lescott, supposedly our first choice CB pair, but as I said, I'd like to see Micah going back to CB. He has everything to succeed there physically wise, he needs to improve on concentration and reading of the game, but honestly, that usually comes with experience, and age.
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Re: Our Defence- Long Term

Postby Douglas Higginbottom » Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:18 am

Interesting area of debate and especially so as we started with some clean sheets then came the slump and now we have a few clean sheets again.
Whilst all good defences are a unit rather than a star or 3 it is still important that individually they are all quality. We have the perfect start with a quality keeper but his one weakness is that he doesnt command the penalty area. Whether Mancini will ask him to come off his line more( has he already) who knows but overall I don't think we have a worry with our keeper. His cover maybe but it sounds like we will be trying hard to keep Joe on the books.
If the keeper doesnt come off his line we need a back 4 that can deal with crosses. Kompany I think has shown that he can be the guy who attacks the ball in the air and he has the height and power to do it. Yes I agree he has a good football brain but for me he takes chances or just switches off at times and that worries me. We saw at Bolton how he can get it wrong on the day and since then he has played great.I actually think he is a bit of a Dunney. Mostly excellent but beware the odd game. Only young though and I think he will get consistency so hopefully a player for City for a long time.
Toure worries me. Arsenal fans I know have said he has never been the same since his malaria illness. We have seen the good and bad already. He reads the game really well and is just about quick enough but he isn't great in the air. Alongside a dominating center back though i think he will be fine. Injuries are a bit of an issue and he doesnt seemthe kind of guy who plays well unless 100% fit.

Lescott I actually like a lot.Weak to start with for City as I don't think the trfr fee sat well with him but his confidence started to grow and he got more and more used to his teammates and the overall situation. Definitely playing well when he got injured and another who will benefit from having the big center back alongside.

Richards. It's all been said I think. I do believe he has come through his poor spell and being left out has been a good thing.I am still not convinced as to his best position but probably agree that it's at center back. Positional thinking isn't and probably never will be his strength but he is still learning and at absoltely worst is a great squad player.

Onto the full backs. I love Zabba but I fear he isn't quite up to the top level. Sure he is decent as a full back but I don't think he can contain a good wide player unless he resorts to fouling and with his lack of height he is vulnerable at the far post. Great squad player. Bridge was playing better this year before the injury and I think he is the best full back we have.As with Zabba not great at the far post but otherwise quite good defensively even though not a big tackler.Maybe that's a plus compared to Zabba as he doesnt give as many free kicks away in bad positions.ok going forward though.

Garrido I will be very interested to watch in a few more games. I see him as a weak full back defensively. He gets his position wrong too often and gets attracted to the ball to lave spaces behind him. Not sure he knows when to support the attack either and I still have memories of him upfield and not trying too hard to get back. ( maybe he copies Richards in that) BUT what a sweet left foot and the best free kick taker we have bar none.

Silvinho I think is a squad man and no more and I think Mancini sees him as a midfield player rather than full back. usefull nonetheless and a top team man.
Onuaha is a worry with his injuries but also in his initial games back where he looks tentative. I would give him a good run of full reserve games before bringing him back but at his best I think he is top class. Another though who thrives when paired with a big head the ball center back.

Boyata. Really good potential but not yet.

Overall it seems that we are ok with central defenders but weak at full back. Hmmmmmmm think we knew that and I would be surprised if Mancini didnt get a full back in during january but the rest will get ample chance to prove themselves.
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Re: Our Defence- Long Term

Postby Im_Spartacus » Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:43 am

Good posts so far and others have pretty much covered it for me, but I think we have skirted wround the issue with fullbacks.

NONE of our fullbacks are good enough for a team who have ambitions to rule the world. Having said that, they are good enough for a team who want to sneak into the top 4 and I am happy with them for this season. They are all exposed due to concentrational lapses, lack of postional foresight or stupid rash challenges. All are top quality on their day, but their day doesnt happen enough.

I think we have good quality in the middle, but again the questionmark is around consistency. I believe you need a brute stopper and an intelligent (in footballing sense) player at the middle of your defence. Lescott (stopper) and Vinnie (footballer) would edge it for me for the rest of the season in the absence of any other signings. Toure, I just dont know, for me he would be 3rd choice but I would give them all the rest of the season to stake their claim.

Richards / Nedum, well its not going to be a problem keeping them financially, but they probably wont see much action longer term unless Richards can deveop that concentration he so desperately needs and Neds can change his "built of glass" injury record. Keepers for me on the basis that they can do a job in cups, and will be needed for the homegrown rule in Europe - although as good players they may not be happy with this sort of role.

I would like to see one TOP quality, world class CB come in longer term to play with one of Vinnie / Lescott /Toure, and 2 new fullbacks who have the consistency and quality necessary at the top level. I would be happy to see Garrido, Sylvinho leave on the basis that we would be left with the following options

Right Back
AN Other, Richards, Zabaleta

Left Back
AN Other, Bridge, Lescott

CB
AN Other, Lescott, Vinnie, Toure, Nedum, Richards

Maybe a harsh appraisal, but for where this club wants to go, we have to have the best - and we dont have that just yet as without CL football we may struggle to attract the best, thats why the top 4 is so so important this season, then we can crack on and get the best
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Re: Our Defence- Long Term

Postby salford city » Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:03 am

My take on this is that Roberto has already decided on the system that we are going to use when we don't have the ball and that is a huge step in the right direction which is the only thing that we have lacked so far this season. If the full backs stay in place, then the centre halves are not getting pulled left & right to cover as we have seem too many times. This in itself is going to result in the defence looking stronger & that will give the individuals greater confidence.

I'd be happy to see two quality full backs come in. Bridge looked a whole lot better before his injury but I don't think he has the discipline to stay back that Mancini is looking for. Zabbs, as already mentioned is liable to give needless free-kicks away in dangerous positions.

It will be interesting to see what we do this window, Top four is definitely up for grabs and has to be Mancini's remit. If we sort the full back areas out, I believe that we have enough to get us through to the summer and if we are in a CL spot, then expect the cheque book to come out for the next stage of the project
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Re: Our Defence- Long Term

Postby Ted Hughes » Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:05 am

Imo none of the defenders we've had at City for years have played like top level defenders apart from a period during one season when Dunne & Distin gave the (false) impression they could be the real deal. The success of other partnerships in recent years has been more down to the team formation covering rather than the individuals.

This season, the back 4 has been asked to defend behind an all out attacking team sometimes full of forwards, without much protection & has been constantly changing. Out of all the defenders this season imo Lescott is the only one who's actually looked like a decent PL defender, let alone a top level one. However, I predicted that it would take a fair bit of the season of possible chaos to sort it out & when we had a settled defence for a while the performance v Chelsea suggested we'd almost cracked it, then we had to change it again. That was proof however that we can defend sensibly & effectively against a variety of threats.

The new manager clearly believes in a tighter defensive, less cavallier game & that may be all that's needed once everyone's fit. Asking players of a certain standard to play in a way only the best can do, (& then only after time together), may be too much & they may need an easier ride with more protection. We can go through our defenders man for man & criticise them but how consistantly good has John Terry been this season or Vidic or anyone at Arsenal or Carragher or Puyol etc etc. I watch alot of football & I've seen bollocks dropped over & over again by top sides all around the world. The standard is poor worldwide & so it's not about being perfect, it's about being as good as is neccessary to compete. That may require more help from the rest of the team.


Re individuals: A special mention over the last few games for big Vinny who's looked the real deal but we were playing against nothing so now comes the true test. Lescott's a possible top player imo but a bit slow on the turn. Richards is a possible top defender only if he engages his brain. Ned isn't good enough in the air for a top CB but is a great defender WHEN FIT. Toure could be fantastic but is headless. Bridge is ok but not special. Zabba & Gaz are dodgy defenders but good players. Zabba could improve though.


In short, whilst far from perfect, we have a squad of defenders capable of being as good as the top 4 but perhaps not in the kind of attacking formation/philosophy Hughes was employing, well not until they've played together a lot more anyway. Tighten up the team a bit & they'll do ok.
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Re: Our Defence- Long Term

Postby AFKAE » Sat Jan 09, 2010 5:02 pm

I'm not sure if I'm being too generalistic, or just plain wrong, but I wonder if the Vieira signing is mixed up with this also. I know we're talking about defence and he's midfield, but I think a bit of the defensive weakness is a leadership thing. Mancini has had a look and thinks there is no real leader on the park. With Vieira and his masses of experience in front of the back four ordering them all about, maybe he thinks they'll start to pull together more as a unit.
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Re: Our Defence- Long Term

Postby Ted Hughes » Sat Jan 09, 2010 5:04 pm

AFKAE wrote:I'm not sure if I'm being too generalistic, or just plain wrong, but I wonder if the Vieira signing is mixed up with this also. I know we're talking about defence and he's midfield, but I think a bit of the defensive weakness is a leadership thing. Mancini has had a look and thinks there is no real leader on the park. With Vieira and his masses of experience in front of the back four ordering them all about, maybe he thinks they'll start to pull together more as a unit.



I recon you're right.
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Re: Our Defence- Long Term

Postby Mr Miyagi » Sat Jan 09, 2010 8:19 pm

Firstly a great post, with great contributions.

I agree strongly with Johnpb78: full back is our problem area. Firstly I regard Micah as a natural centre back, who can provide cover at full back. I discount him as a permanent fullback. That then leaves Zabba, Bridge, Garrido, Sylvinho..... and none of them are top 4 material. I would even go this far (and you can quote me on this at the end of the season): if we don't strengthen in the full back positions this January transfer window then we will finish outside the top 4. I know we have the clean sheets at the moment. But better opposition than Wolves will exploit our weakness at fullback. The Spurs game is a typical example. All they had to do was keep feeding Lennon and it was game over.

As for the centrebacks: everything has been said about Micah and Ned.
On the issue of Toure I am concerned about his form. He has a tendency to allow high balls to bounce in the penalty area which a top defender would never do. Personally I think Hughes's undoing was selling Dunne (the captain), replacing him with Toure, and just for good measure, making Toure captain. A risky decision and he got it badly wrong. Once he made Toure captain it became difficult to drop him, and his form was so bad he didn't justify his place in the team. In the long term Toure is not good enough.

I do believe Lescott can pull through and become a top defender again. I thought he was quality when he played for Wolves and wanted us to sign him then. He was trying to settle in, and I believe he was improving before the injury. Once he gets top coaching again he will be a top 4 player.

Kompany is a real wild card. At one point he looks world class. The next he will follow a midfielder to the touchline and drag him to the floor needlessly, then get booked for arguing with the ref. It could go either way with him.

At this moment in time I think the centre back group of Lescott, Kompany, Richards, Toure, and Onouha is good enough to get us into the top 4 this season. Our full backs let us down though.

In a few seasons time I can see Lescott playing in the back 4 along with 3 other players we have yet to sign. Richards and Kompany would be very good squad cover. Onouha's injuries will be too much. Toure will be playing at Bolton or Birmingham.
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Re: Our Defence- Long Term

Postby john68 » Sat Jan 09, 2010 8:33 pm

Notwithstanding any of the excellent analysis regarding the individual defensive players, I think that the main area of concern for me under Hughes was the strategy that was used.
It is quite apparent that Mancini wants them now to remain more at home and even when wee're attacking, retain our defensive shape. I was chatting with Dave ( a mate of mine who is a qualified coach) and this was mentioned by him. I thought it was extremely relevant.
The emphasis on a more stable defensive shape should see us improve on our poor defensive record, no matter which individuals are playing.
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Re: Our Defence- Long Term

Postby Ted Hughes » Sat Jan 09, 2010 8:48 pm

john68 wrote:Notwithstanding any of the excellent analysis regarding the individual defensive players, I think that the main area of concern for me under Hughes was the strategy that was used.
It is quite apparent that Mancini wants them now to remain more at home and even when wee're attacking, retain our defensive shape. I was chatting with Dave ( a mate of mine who is a qualified coach) and this was mentioned by him. I thought it was extremely relevant.
The emphasis on a more stable defensive shape should see us improve on our poor defensive record, no matter which individuals are playing.


I agree. If you're going to play the kind of all out attack MH was doing then the defenders need to be either exceptionally good individually or a unit that's been together for ages & drilled like Arsenal's was. Ours don't fit either catagory at the moment. They need help from the team.

Arsenal are similar. The further in time Arsenal get from the legacy of the old Adams, Bould, Keown etc defence, the less organised they get each passing season. Wenger's good but he reaped the benefits of Don Howe/George Graham's defensive work, to set him on his way. Now it's worn off over the years, it's up to him, he can't rebuild it & his players aren't good enough to do it for themselves.
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Re: Our Defence- Long Term

Postby Nick » Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:43 pm

Been thinking about this, and if everyone was fit at the moment I would have to go with:

Zabba/Micah Vince Lescott Bridge


Lescott did very well the couple of games before his injury and kompany has looked very good. Toure has definately been the dodgy one and I think Vince saved him a couple of times in his last game. Although Toure is the captain, I see more leadership from Vince. Although Toure is great with driving runs through the middle. That to me means he may be better in an advanced role. Didnt Wenger convert him to CB?
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Re: Our Defence- Long Term

Postby CityFanFromRome » Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:12 pm

john68 wrote:Notwithstanding any of the excellent analysis regarding the individual defensive players, I think that the main area of concern for me under Hughes was the strategy that was used.
It is quite apparent that Mancini wants them now to remain more at home and even when wee're attacking, retain our defensive shape. I was chatting with Dave ( a mate of mine who is a qualified coach) and this was mentioned by him. I thought it was extremely relevant.
The emphasis on a more stable defensive shape should see us improve on our poor defensive record, no matter which individuals are playing.

Well of course this is key to mantaina solid defence. However if you apply this with very strong individuals, then it's even better, isn't it? ;)
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Re: Our Defence- Long Term

Postby wyted » Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:26 pm

I rate Lescott highly but he has had dodgy moments.

I do feel though that he will thrive under Bobby Manc and his zonal marking system. He's great at set pieces because he can attack the ball and that's exactly what he would be doing in a zonal marking system the way Bobby Manc has lined things up so far.

I also feel that changing the shape and positioning of the team can only help us to defend better as a unit. Only time can tell but I hope what we've seen so far is a marker for the remainder of the season.
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Re: Our Defence- Long Term

Postby john68 » Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:33 am

CityFanFromRome wrote:
john68 wrote:Notwithstanding any of the excellent analysis regarding the individual defensive players, I think that the main area of concern for me under Hughes was the strategy that was used.
It is quite apparent that Mancini wants them now to remain more at home and even when wee're attacking, retain our defensive shape. I was chatting with Dave ( a mate of mine who is a qualified coach) and this was mentioned by him. I thought it was extremely relevant.
The emphasis on a more stable defensive shape should see us improve on our poor defensive record, no matter which individuals are playing.

Well of course this is key to mantaina solid defence. However if you apply this with very strong individuals, then it's even better, isn't it? ;)


I had already acknowledged that other posters had given an excellent analysis of individuals and was adding the extra dimension of the tactical changes to widen the discussion.
I agree totally with what you say.
I KNOW THAT YOU BELIEVE THAT YOU UNDERSTOOD WHAT YOU THINK I WROTE, BUT I AM NOT SURE YOU REALISE THAT WHAT YOU READ IS NOT WHAT I MEANT
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john68
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My favourite player is: BERT TRAUTMANN


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