Given

[Mike J]

i think its daft to say he isnt good enough. he's one of the most resepcted keepers in european football. but he really needs to come off his line more.

[sweenyuk]

Everytime I say that I do not rate Given I get slated in here, but yet again he has let in 3 goals. Yes I know we were playing against a strong team, but we need a better goalie than the one we currently have for big games. We cant keep needing to score 4 goals to win a game

[Blue2]

I'd rather have Joe in goal, especially next season.

[Im_Spartacus]

So, how has Hart been doing at Birmingham.

Some are saying he will push Given all the way, but as far as I remember, Hart was just as bad at commanding his area and gave us kittens every time he came to claim a cross. I know he has had a good season, but can anyone (who has actually watched them, not just heard reports) confirm that Hart is getting better in this area?

You can't ask a 30 odd year old leopard to change his spots, then perhaps the answer lies elsewhere, although I havent got a fucking clue where, short of resigning David James seeing as he seemingly dont give a fuck about his family on the south coast any more, considering a move to Stoke.

I don't know, you are never gonna get the complete package, and if Given's vulnerability is with crosses, then Mancinis job if he sticks with Given is to stop crosses from coming into the box. That means getting better fullbacks (although Micah was awesome last night)

[shortagain]

I don't think there is any doubt that Shay is a top keeper and isn't alone in being iffy at best at coming off his line for crosses but for me last night it was the first goal that concerned me most.

When a team makes a fast break from deep it's essential that the keeper has a high starting position and potentially acts as sweeper. When Shrek got the ball around the half way line and hit it over to Giggs , Given should have been roughly penalty spot if not a little further to anticipate the long through ball. Giggs first touch wasn't great and the ball ran well into the area and Given for me should have been able to pick it up easily but he came late from his line and the rest is history even if it did need a big slice of luck.

Yes he made some fantastic saves but that first goal was always going to be massive and I thought he simply got it wrong on this occasion.He has won games and points for us before but that one last night hurt.

Agreed Doug, in fact if he had been 1/2 yard quicker, he could have smothered the ball & as you say, the rest is history

[Blue Blood]

Everytime I say that I do not rate Given I get slated in here, but yet again he has let in 3 goals. Yes I know we were playing against a strong team, but we need a better goalie than the one we currently have for big games. We cant keep needing to score 4 goals to win a game

Criticism of him not coming for crosses is fair.

Saying he should be replaced as he's not good enough is daft.

There is no perfect goalkeeper out there. If we went out and bought someone who was a master at plucking crosses out the air, odds are he'd be worse at shot stopping than shay and then we'd wishing we stuck with shay.

It's all swings and roundabouts.

[CityFanFromRome]

So, how has Hart been doing at Birmingham.

Some are saying he will push Given all the way, but as far as I remember, Hart was just as bad at commanding his area and gave us kittens every time he came to claim a cross. I know he has had a good season, but can anyone (who has actually watched them, not just heard reports) confirm that Hart is getting better in this area?

You can't ask a 30 odd year old leopard to change his spots, then perhaps the answer lies elsewhere, although I havent got a fucking clue where, short of resigning David James seeing as he seemingly dont give a fuck about his family on the south coast any more, considering a move to Stoke.

I don't know, you are never gonna get the complete package, and if Given's vulnerability is with crosses, then Mancinis job if he sticks with Given is to stop crosses from coming into the box. That means getting better fullbacks (although Micah was awesome last night)

Fact is, you can't stop crosses altogether. There will always be one, two, three crosses that come in, and when they do in that area, he has to go out and take the ball, end of. Otherwise, you miss the marking one time and it's a goal conceded. It's so frustrating to see him make a world class save and then the next minute not come off the line and claim a ball that should have been his, and from which we end conceding.

[AFKAE]

So, how has Hart been doing at Birmingham.

Some are saying he will push Given all the way, but as far as I remember, Hart was just as bad at commanding his area and gave us kittens every time he came to claim a cross. I know he has had a good season, but can anyone (who has actually watched them, not just heard reports) confirm that Hart is getting better in this area?

You can't ask a 30 odd year old leopard to change his spots, then perhaps the answer lies elsewhere, although I havent got a fucking clue where, short of resigning David James seeing as he seemingly dont give a fuck about his family on the south coast any more, considering a move to Stoke.

I don't know, you are never gonna get the complete package, and if Given's vulnerability is with crosses, then Mancinis job if he sticks with Given is to stop crosses from coming into the box. That means getting better fullbacks (although Micah was awesome last night)

I live in Birmingham and I've seen him a couple of times during this period of rave reviews. But most of it is excellence in the area that Given excels, i.e. shot stopping. I don't think Hart has improved dramatically in commanding his area.

[Original Dub]

Given plays to his undoubted strengths, which is on the line shot stopping.

It is just as risky to come out for crosses (particularly when you are small for a goalkeeper) as it is to stay on the line.

Shay Given is the one person on that team that most certainly knows what his job is. When we FINALLY get an established back four, they will know where Given will be at any given (?!) time.

It is probably even more prevelant now that we are practicising zonal marking. Zonal marking can be a success but it has to be the gospel for players and the last thing you need from a world class shotstopper is him bursting out from his line and causing havoc.

Don't get me wrong, he's not perfect, but he's barely put a foot wrong since he joined and has never had a consistant back four in front of him.

Look at the times Pepe Reina got the golden gloves. Was it because he was a fantastic shot stopper? Was it because he comes out for every cross? It could be a bit of both, but its mainly because his defence in that/those seasons had defended admirably and everyone knew their jobs.

Its because the whole defence knew their jobs and each other inside out. And while we're learning how to zonal defend and learning what our best back four is, I'd much rather have one of the world's best shotstoppers in goal than your usual run of the mill keeper that will throw himself around the place at crosses.

For the record, I think Given could have done better and saved from Michael Owen in the league derby, because that's what he's amazing at and he failed on that occasion. However, Wayne fucking Rooney was allowed a completely free header in the 6 yard box in injury time and I'm fucked if I'll blame Shay Given for that.

I've watched him in front of an established Irish defence for years and years. Every single game and he's been absolutely amazing. Just like he will be for us when he has the same four lads in front of him for any reasonable amount of time... and when they all know their "zones".

Who owned the zone Rooney was standing in, scratching his arse, I wonder?

[Renato_CTID]

made a fucking belting save to keep us in it, but he needs to start coming off his line. he should of done for the final goal.

Agree with you, mate! He made nothing when Shreck scored and that was a very big mistake from Shay!!!

[CityFanFromRome]

I watched last night's highlights again (must have been feeling a bit masochist, lol) and I have to say that even before the Rooney goal, when he made that great save on Fletcher, he could have avoided having to do it if he had come out to claim the Giggs cross, as that one, too, was on the 6 yards line.

He really needs to work on that, because if he doesn't, we end risking too much. There's only so much defenders can do, once or twice a game a ball from the flank is going to go past them, it's unavoidable I think, but if the keeper comes out to claim those balls, it minimizes the risks of conceding.

I know no keeper is perfect, but this is a glaring fault in an otherwise top top drawer keeper like Shay is.

[Mr Miyagi]

Look at the times Pepe Reina got the golden gloves. Was it because he was a fantastic shot stopper? Was it because he comes out for every cross? It could be a bit of both, but its mainly because his defence in that/those seasons had defended admirably and everyone knew their jobs.

Since Reina was at Liverpool how successful have they been?
Since Almunia has been first choice at Arsenal how successful have they been?
Reina = shot stopper
Almunia = shot stopper

Shot-stoppers don't bring you success. A commanding goalie is the foundation to a successful team. That's why Clough broke the bank to get Shilton when he took over at Forest.

[ayrshireblue]

Who owned the zone Rooney was standing in, scratching his arse, I wonder?

From what was posted in the thread about zonal marking, it appears that Rooney was in the zone that Shay should have been covering. I do think it's being hyper critical to say he should go from covering the near post for a surprise shot to going hell for leather clattering into Shrek to stop him scoring.
Iker Cassilas is another smallish goalkeeper who is an outstanding shot stopper but doesn't come for many crosses. Again, many changes in the defence and he doesn't do too well but stick with the same defence for a period of time and he looks great. Like when winning the Euros with Spain.

[Original Dub]

Who owned the zone Rooney was standing in, scratching his arse, I wonder?

From what was posted in the thread about zonal marking, it appears that Rooney was in the zone that Shay should have been covering. I do think it's being hyper critical to say he should go from covering the near post for a surprise shot to going hell for leather clattering into Shrek to stop him scoring.
Iker Cassilas is another smallish goalkeeper who is an outstanding shot stopper but doesn't come for many crosses. Again, many changes in the defence and he doesn't do too well but stick with the same defence for a period of time and he looks great. Like when winning the Euros with Spain.

Gret post mate. I'll go for that. I was annoyed not only with Richards for Owen's goal last time, but also with Sahy because that is what he does best.

However, I can't blame him for not running out two yards to clatter into an area that had three defenders in it.

One thing we can all agree on I'm sure is that we need a settled defence asap.

And CFFR and Miyagi - not to ignore your posts, I believe a side can be successful with a world class shot stopper.

Also, my point about Liverpool was that although they may not have won the premier league with Riena, they did finish once or twice with the cleanest sheets and he got the golden gloves, which means their problem in not winning the league had more to do with scoring and beating teams, rather than goalkeeping/defensive errors.

I'm convinced he's the right man for the job alright and not because he comes from the same country! I wouldn't want Willo Flood or Glen Whelan playing for us again!! Its just I've studied Shay's whole career and we've got the right man between the sticks, we just need a settled defense.. like we have needed for 3 years now.

[Blueboylewis]

It is the defenders jobs to clear the ball and make sure they are marking there players or in the case of Zonal marking! Looking after there specific areas of the pitch.

We did neither and it cost us big time. But yes maybe that ball was planted in the perfect area for Shay to just sprint out and punch it or catch it!

[LookMumImOnMCF.net]

He's the best shot stopper I have ever seen. Literally unbelievable at times.

However his lack of command in the 6 yard box is baffling and the way good defences crumble in front of him is worry. He NEVER comes for crosses and it makes him look better than he actually is.

It's fine pulling off a brilliant save to deny a goal, but it's a waste if you don't collect the next ball into the 6 yard box.

[dazby]

Mark Schwarzer. At Boro, club does good. He leaves Boro they go down.

He goes to Fulham. Fulham come good.

Schwarzer is brilliant at claiming crosses.

[Pretty Boy Lee]

Mark Schwarzer. At Boro, club does good. He leaves Boro they go down.

He goes to Fulham. Fulham come good.

Schwarzer is brilliant at claiming crosses.

Now replace Scwarzzer with Given, Boro with Newcastle and Fulham with City and tell me exactly what the difference is?

[ant london]

I rate Shay but I can see his weaknesses. Thing is that I currently believe that his significant strengths outweigh these weaknesses.

HOWEVER, I think there is a finite period over which this will be true as his strengths are borne of positioning and reflexes. The latter part of this with fade with age and then the lack of box domination and aerial safety he offers the defence will be increasingly exposed.

I was shocked on this basis to listen to the latest Football Weekly podcast where Barry Glendinning (who is Irish it would seem) comes out with the statement that this week's match that the one thing City lack is a goalkeeper who is good enough for the top level. Well...he says that they do....but he's playing for Birmingham.

He points to the fact that no top top club ever came in for Shay and the fact that all the defences he's played behind have "looked poor" (rather than actually being that poor) due to the jitteriness his weaknesses engender.

Have a listen

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog ... ster-derby

[Scatman]

Mark Schwarzer. At Boro, club does good. He leaves Boro they go down.

He goes to Fulham. Fulham come good.

Schwarzer is brilliant at claiming crosses.

Now replace Scwarzzer with Given, Boro with Newcastle and Fulham with City and tell me exactly what the difference is?

we signed the wrong goalie?