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Ok, it seems there is much uncertainty over exactly what the players roles are and what "zones" they command.

So I'll play the silly fucker and ask the following questions:

1. What zone does the keeper look after?
2. What zone is assigned to each defender?
3. Do the zones cross over into other zones?
4. Who's zone was Rooney in last night when he was standing for the free header?

Its just that it used to be easy to say "Fuck sake, Boyata should have been marking him..."

Not any more...

Answers greatly appreciated, then we can actually get to the bottom of who exactly is responsible instead of wildly pointing the finger when a lot of us don't fully get who is supposed to be doing what?

Personally I haven't a clue so will leave that one to the master tacticians here. 2 things though , first we haven't conceded yet direct from a corner or free kick crossed straight in have we since Mancini came in?

2nd that last goal doesnt count as it was initially played short and it seems to me when that happens it's like another phase and maybe we havent sorted that bit yet. We seemed to get drawn more to the front post ( a la the Scunny one as well) so our main headers of the ball have moved under it.

Douglas Higginbottom wrote:Personally I haven't a clue so will leave that one to the master tacticians here. 2 things though , first we haven't conceded yet direct from a corner or free kick crossed straight in have we since Mancini came in?

2nd that last goal doesnt count as it was initially played short and it seems to me when that happens it's like another phase and maybe we havent sorted that bit yet. We seemed to get drawn more to the front post ( a la the Scunny one as well) so our main headers of the ball have moved under it.

Well this is the whole thing. This thread has around 30 views as I type and only one reply. In your reply you say you don't really have a clue, as I have also said.
I don't believe there are too many that can answer the questions I asked sufficiently.

Yet fingers are being pointed at who was at fault for this and that.

Bizzare really.

I've tried making a very simple drawing of how I understand it, but I could be mistaken. Anyway I'd say if it is like I drew it, rooney was actually in the zone which overlaps between the goalie and the far post CB's ones, so there should have been the far post CB marking him (Boyata?) but also Given coming out for the cross, imho.

I found interesting info on wikipedia regarding how to train for zonal marking, btw:

Training methods to develop this technique include the coloured cones and the 5-metre rope. The coloured cone is set up by having certain colours set out in sections of the pitch, each player will be put in the coloured section and will not be allowed to leave it. The 5-metre rope is a piece of equipment where the four defenders are attached by a rope which means they are used to staying and working together. Both training methods help and are highly recommended

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zonal_mark ... al_marking

Doug, is any of this done at Carrington?

Original Dub wrote:1. What zone does the keeper look after?
2. What zone is assigned to each defender?
3. Do the zones cross over into other zones?
4. Who's zone was Rooney in last night when he was standing for the free header?

Good questions
1. The whole 6 yard box is the goalie's zone I would have thought
2. From watching them on corners they seem to have two rows of three - Boyata is always in the middle of the back row
3. That is why people criticise the system - leads to grey areas and players thinking about whether it is in his zone or not and whether he should make the challenge
4. As far as I'm concerned Rooney was in the 6 yard box, therefore he was in the goalie's zone, and should have been clattered to the floor when the goalie came and punched the ball clear....

Hope that helps :-)

Mr Miyagi wrote:4. As far as I'm concerned Rooney was in the 6 yard box, therefore he was in the goalie's zone, and should have been clattered to the floor when the goalie came and punched the ball clear....

Hope that helps :-)

I agree with this, that was definitely Given's ball. If someone had been marking him though, it wouldn't have been bad.

Also I wanted to point out that the draw I've attached relates to last night's situation for their third goal, not in general :)

CityFanFromRome wrote:

Mr Miyagi wrote:4. As far as I'm concerned Rooney was in the 6 yard box, therefore he was in the goalie's zone, and should have been clattered to the floor when the goalie came and punched the ball clear....

Hope that helps :-)

I agree with this, that was definitely Given's ball. If someone had been marking him though, it wouldn't have been bad.

Also I wanted to point out that the draw I've attached relates to last night's situation for their third goal, not in general :)

I understand your point but it is shouldn't matter if a defender is marking Rooney as well. The goalie should still come, even if it means flooring his own defender. It's a sad fact that goalie's frequently injure their own defenders when jumping for crosses, but it's a necessary evil....

Cheers lads, I'm not sure its entirely accurate but a damn ssite closer than I was to start with.

So in short, Given was to blame for Rooney's goal as that was his zone?

It just goes to show how little I actually knew of zonal defending because I would have definitely thought he should have covered by a defender more so than the keeper.

Given you fucking idiot, where were you?!!

CityFanFromRome wrote:

Mr Miyagi wrote:4. As far as I'm concerned Rooney was in the 6 yard box, therefore he was in the goalie's zone, and should have been clattered to the floor when the goalie came and punched the ball clear....

Hope that helps :-)

I

agree with this, that was definitely Given's ball. If someone had been marking him though, it wouldn't have been bad.

Also I wanted to point out that the draw I've attached relates to last night's situation for their third goal, not in general :)

Good point. regardless of the fact that it was Given's zone/ball, someone shud have been marking/sticking to Rooney when that cross came in.

I'd have said it was a mix up between Ireland and Zabaleta.

Ireland charged off the post starting to play offside put stopped to pick up Rooney. Nothing necessarily wrong there but then he drifted back to pick up the back post and left Rooney. He had to mark 2 people in a lot of space and he guessed wrong this time. Zabaleta could have tracked if he'd been more alert and Boyata could have cut out the cross if he'd been taller.

He was pulled forward (and had to go) because the main zone all shifted towards the ball and got caught in no man's land. Too many players were worried about the short corner and weren't worried enough about their own zone. This left us outnumbered at the back post. Happens when some play offside and some aren't.

ronk wrote:I'd have said it was a mix up between Ireland and Zabaleta.

Ireland charged off the post starting to play offside put stopped to pick up Rooney. Nothing necessarily wrong there but then he drifted back to pick up the back post and left Rooney. He had to mark 2 people in a lot of space and he guessed wrong this time. Zabaleta could have tracked if he'd been more alert and Boyata could have cut out the cross if he'd been taller.

He was pulled forward (and had to go) because the main zone all shifted towards the ball and got caught in no man's land. Too many players were worried about the short corner and weren't worried enough about their own zone. This left us outnumbered at the back post. Happens when some play offside and some aren't.

Well to be honest that's exactly how I saw it chief, but obviously this zonal defending that has me baffled means that Shay is at fault or that's how I'm reading it from a lot on here...

Original Dub wrote:
Well to be honest that's exactly how I saw it chief, but obviously this zonal defending that has me baffled means that Shay is at fault or that's how I'm reading it from a lot on here...

It sounds as though you don't want to accept that Given could be at fault. In that case why ask the question if you had already made your mind up? You asked the question I gave you the answer. Accept it. Any goalie has responsibility to challenge for a cross in the 6 yard box. Forget zonal, man-marking etc. It is irrelevant whether Rooney was marked or not. The goalie should still challenge for a ball in the 6 yard box and batter anyone in his way, even his own player. Whether we had a zonal system is irrelevant when it comes to a cross so close to the keeper.

Mr Miyagi wrote:

Original Dub wrote:
Well to be honest that's exactly how I saw it chief, but obviously this zonal defending that has me baffled means that Shay is at fault or that's how I'm reading it from a lot on here...

It sounds as though you don't want to accept that Given could be at fault. In that case why ask the question if you had already made your mind up? You asked the question I gave you the answer. Accept it. Any goalie has responsibility to challenge for a cross in the 6 yard box. Forget zonal, man-marking etc. It is irrelevant whether Rooney was marked or not. The goalie should still challenge for a ball in the 6 yard box and batter anyone in his way, even his own player. Whether we had a zonal system is irrelevant when it comes to a cross so close to the keeper.

Mate, hold on there. I appreciate your opinion, but to think you are giving me the answers to questions on zonal marking or indeed whether Rooney's goal was Shay's fault is a bit much.

And I never said my mind was made up, I said "that's how I saw it too".

And if you read further up the thread, I said I felt Given was at fault for not saving Owen's shot last time.

I don't feel he was at fault for this particular goal at all. I merely wanted to see if zonal marking played a part in people's opinion of the goal, or our defending in general.

I don't claim to know the ins and outs of zonal marking so I wanted a hand and I appreciate it.

Now I have no problems with Shay between the sticks because once we master the zonal marking, we can go just like Liverpool did and have the most amount of clean sheets in the prem... only we'll score bucket loads too. Shot stoppers work in zonal marking from what I saw of Liverpool when they had their settled defence.

I just don't know all the ins and outs like I said!

Given debate is a dead-end. Whether it's correct or not isn't so relevant. Some people feel that keeper should always come when the ball is going into a certain zone. It doesn't matter that the ball skipped inches over Boyata's head and that there would have been an open goal if he'd gone for Rooney and the ball had dropped short if he'd gone for Boyata and missed it or if it hadn't dropped and had gone to the far post instead. It was also crossed from a shooting position so Shay had to cover that option too.

In hindsight, maybe going would have been the right strategy, but it really is far more difficult expect someone to deal with every situation the same. The defensive situation is changed from a cross instead of a corner, he didn't have anyone behind him.

I accept I'm probably a harsh critic of Given. I've never rated him (for legitimate reasons) and was disappointed when we bought him. Maybe I'm being too harsh. Time to lie down :-)

The fact is Kompany was ball watching and wasnt in the center, Also it is extremely hard to defend a cross that is whipeed in with pace. They took a short corner and the person who was closing down 2 was tevez?

Where was garrido and where was tevez back up?

The only way to learn from these type of goals is to learn by your mistakes.

This one is easy in my opinion:

We win as a team and we lose as a team, so nobody is at fault but the team.

BlueMoonAwoken wrote:Where was garrido and where was tevez back up? .

Slightly harsh on Garrido, he'd been subbed! :-D

On the Given situation. There is a different train of thought than saying he should be coming out for these crosses. A keeper can choose to be one or the other. Given has quite clearly chosen to be a stick on the line keeper. This is fine as everyone knows this to be the case. Therefore the responsibility falls to the defenders as they know its their job to win the ball at all costs.

Its when a keeper stays one minute and comes the next that causes huge confusion in the back line. A centre back can leave it thinking his keeper is coming or he can go for the ball and get taken out by the keeper as they both go for the same ball.

The problem with zonal marking is that the oppositon can quite quickly suss you out. It was noticeable at the scunny game that they were working on the short corner as we get everyone to defend a condensed space. No one picks up the short corner, players then get automatically drawn to the ball and spaces appear within the zonal area. This is what happened against the rags so I dont think you can blame an individual. you have to desognate someone to stop the short corner and cover all bases. If someone scores direct from the corner then the zonal marking hasnt worked.

MaineRoadMemories wrote:

BlueMoonAwoken wrote:Where was garrido and where was tevez back up? .

Slightly harsh on Garrido, he'd been subbed! :-D

On the Given situation. There is a different train of thought than saying he should be coming out for these crosses. A keeper can choose to be one or the other. Given has quite clearly chosen to be a stick on the line keeper. This is fine as everyone knows this to be the case. Therefore the responsibility falls to the defenders as they know its their job to win the ball at all costs.

Its when a keeper stays one minute and comes the next that causes huge confusion in the back line. A centre back can leave it thinking his keeper is coming or he can go for the ball and get taken out by the keeper as they both go for the same ball.

yeah i forgot about that one i mean zabba :)

Your right but we cant be too harsh on the players there learning this , some of them for the very first time this season. The few games mancini has been in charge it looks as though we look much more comfortable in defense.

The problem with zonal marking is that the oppositon can quite quickly suss you out. It was noticeable at the scunny game that they were working on the short corner as we get everyone to defend a condensed space. No one picks up the short corner, players then get automatically drawn to the ball and spaces appear within the zonal area. This is what happened against the rags so I dont think you can blame an individual. you have to desognate someone to stop the short corner and cover all bases. If someone scores direct from the corner then the zonal marking hasnt worked.

Yeah i noticed this too at scunny, And i think united picked up on this and used it too good effect against us. Ok we was caught out but we all learn by making big mistakes. And making the mistakes in BIG GAMES makes you remember them alot more. We could go all the way in FA cup yet and still finish fourth. I dont care really because im loving this season.