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Niall Quinns Discopants wrote:I said it from the very beginning in the match rating thread, I was shocked to see people giving Kompany 9's and whatever when he was clearly at fault for the goal.

It's a strange one to call imo because there was a lot of really good defending from Kompany & Boyata yet both completely fell apart at times later in the game. The potential in both was really encouraging though, they both look like they could be real top quality performers in the future & both can play football too.

13021J wrote: But as teams observe this they come up with cunning plans (Scunny, Rags) that involve short corner routines to exploit us. Should come as no great surprise.

The short corner routine is killing this defensive system for us at the moment. When its played short, our defenders race out, whereas the opposition are still racing inwards. All it takes is a semi-decent ball and we have a big problem.

This is highlighted perfectly in my Final Position screenshot. 3 United players in the six yard box compared to our two, Boyata who couldn't reach the ball and Ireland who was the wrong side anyway.

That is criminal defending in the 91 minute of a semi-final!

Ted Hughes wrote:

Niall Quinns Discopants wrote:I said it from the very beginning in the match rating thread, I was shocked to see people giving Kompany 9's and whatever when he was clearly at fault for the goal.

It's a strange one to call imo because there was a lot of really good defending from Kompany & Boyata yet both completely fell apart at times later in the game. The potential in both was really encouraging though, they both look like they could be real top quality performers in the future & both can play football too.

Exactly my view.
I thought they did well and I see massive potential especially in Boyata but you can't hide from the fact that late on in the game they started to make more and more mistakes.

Niall Quinns Discopants wrote:I said it from the very beginning in the match rating thread, I was shocked to see people giving Kompany 9's and whatever when he was clearly at fault for the goal.

I know its strange mate, I thought Kompany was mainly at fault and that Ireland could have given a better hand, but a few seem to think it was Shay's fault. I took it this was because of our new zonal defending, but either way it would seem to point towards a mix of Kompany De Jong and Ireland.

MaineRoadMemories wrote:

13021J wrote: But as teams observe this they come up with cunning plans (Scunny, Rags) that involve short corner routines to exploit us. Should come as no great surprise.

The short corner routine is killing this defensive system for us at the moment. When its played short, our defenders race out, whereas the opposition are still racing inwards. All it takes is a semi-decent ball and we have a big problem.

This is highlighted perfectly in my Final Position screenshot. 3 U***d players in the six yard box compared to our two, Boyata who couldn't reach the ball and Ireland who was the wrong side anyway.

That is criminal defending in the 91 minute of a semi-final!

One of the other players should be stopping the short corner so the defenders don't have to come out.

We've been falling for that trick for years, it's not just the zonal system, it's rags players being mentally sharper than us & usually involves Ryan Giggs. I can remember them doing it to us about 4 times, one after the other almost taking the piss, back in the days of gloom. I know because it's been a pet hate of mine for about 20 odd years!

Very true Ted, I failed to include this in my analysis which was a big oversight, A decent amount of blame should also be attributed to both Tevez and Bellamy for not reacting quickly enough/bad starting positions.

The Analysis is good.

Also note that De Jong when taking up his position on the far post is not actually looking at the corner being taken.
Then he simply walks out . Now , whether he is told not to pick up a player but to get in the way of a shot to block it, i don't know why he couldn't see that Rooney was free. It does seem strange. Even if someone has left Rooney De Jong could have gone to cover him if he hadn't been caught out by the quick corner.

Also Teves and Bellamy reacted a little late. A quicker reaction might have prevented the cross.

I put this all down to the team being tired at the end of the game and losing concentration.

However, Given could not have been tired and this is where he needs to step up his role and get the defence awake and organised, most important at this late stage of the game. Also, He should have come for the cross, absolutely no excuse for staying on his line. Even if he missed the ball, it may well have been sufficient to put rooney out of his stride.

The Cross could be described as sublime, it was a dream cross and I think more luck than great skill. I say this because Giggs was not too good with his crossing at all during the game.

As for Zab and Ireland , it is inexcusable that an attacker is allowed to get a free jump. I can understand that a defender can be outjumped, however somebody should be right in front of Rooney to prevent him jumping into the ball without encroaching on the defender.

I've watched the goal in slow mo many times and there were just several things about the goal. No one person can be blamed i believe, there was a combination of events that lead to the goal.

zuricity wrote:Also note that De Jong when taking up his position on the far post is not actually looking at the corner being taken.

Watching on tv, early in the game there was a close up on the faces of De Jong & Micah jogging away from the corner flag area as rags were about to take a corner. I was shouting at the screen " FUCKING TURN ROUND, WAKE UP" the camera angle changed to full screen to reveal a rag player in the box unmarked with the ball at his feet stood behind them.

Why I knew that was about to happen & yet they didn't, I've absolutely no idea.

It's threads like this that make us stand out head and shoulders above every forum in the land.

Cracking job MRM.

zuricity wrote:The Analysis is good.

Also Teves and Bellamy reacted a little late. A quicker reaction might have prevented the cross.

I put this all down to the team being tired at the end of the game and losing concentration.

However, Given could not have been tired and this is where he needs to step up his role and get the defence awake and organised, most important at this late stage of the game. Also, He should have come for the cross, absolutely no excuse for staying on his line. Even if he missed the ball, it may well have been sufficient to put rooney out of his stride.

The Cross could be described as sublime, it was a dream cross and I think more luck than great skill. I say this because Giggs was not too good with his crossing at all during the game.

As for Zab and Ireland , it is inexcusable that an attacker is allowed to get a free jump. I can understand that a defender can be outjumped, however somebody should be right in front of Rooney to prevent him jumping into the ball without encroaching on the defender.

I've watched the goal in slow mo many times and there were just several things about the goal. No one person can be blamed i believe, there was a combination of events that lead to the goal.

Agree with all of this.

Fantastic analysis.

We'll get there. We'll learn from this. You have to at least give the Rags credit for changing up and executing a very good play. Look at the amount of time their players have had together vs the time the squad we had have played together.

Overall, plenty of blame to go around for City. Lots of moving parts not moving in the right way.

As some pointed out here and in the zonal marking thread - for the zonal marking to work, there has to be a lot of understanding and comunication between all players. Some can't switch to man while others stay in zone or some try to push out for an offside trap (perhaps why DeJong and others were behind the play) while others stay close to goal to mark players. We need to work on it and it'll come.

Rags made a good play, it was a great cross (lucky or not) and it fell onto the head of a great player. FUCK! Sucks it happened, especially so late, but lets learn from it and get better.

No need to keep asigning blame, we'll get there, lets move forward.

Original Dub wrote:

Niall Quinns Discopants wrote:I said it from the very beginning in the match rating thread, I was shocked to see people giving Kompany 9's and whatever when he was clearly at fault for the goal.

I know its strange mate, I thought Kompany was mainly at fault and that Ireland could have given a better hand, but a few seem to think it was Shay's fault. I took it this was because of our new zonal defending, but either way it would seem to point towards a mix of Kompany De Jong and Ireland.

While I agree that a/m players were at fault and should have at least challenged Rooney when he went up for the header, I still think that Shay could have come off his line and done something. Even if he would not have been able to punch it, he might of created enough to put off Rooney or in the event that he did get the header, Shay would have been close enough to block it.
Regardless of who was at fault with this goal, I think there is no doubt that Shay's weakness is that he sticks to his line and doesn't come out or if he does, his timing is wrong as demonstrated clearly with the 1st goal which he could have prevented had he come off and intercepted the pass to Giggs (and he had ample time to do that).

MRM, you put the BBC to shame. That is great stuff; clear, analytical evidence that makes for excellent debate (not the conjecture that some like to indulge in).

I agree that VK and NdJ appear to be most at fault from the picture you've constructed. Is there any chance of getting a timing between each shot, very difficult I know, to help decide on Given's decision not to come for the ball. We might be able to make comparisons with other goalkeepers and similar types of corners/crosses that are dealt with successfully or unsuccessfully.

Again, excellent stuff.

Rooney has headed the ball in from 5 yards out, stood in the middle of the goal, and the ball has been crossed in from deep of the right wing.

Keepers ball from me.

You can go on all you want about marking but Given can see it all infront of him and it only takes 1 movement to take a defender out of the game. Any defender.

Given is one of the best shot stoppers ive ever seen. Very timed when it comes to commanding his box though