Hysteria - our results in perspective

[john@staustell]

Last nights results all came as quite a relief. It's even left us with a mathematical possibility of challenging for the league, although our form doesn't really promise such a thing. But once again it's shown that Chelski and Scum are mortal and will drop points.

Chelsea struggled to draw at Hull, Chelsea lost at Everton. The City results at these places provoked untold hysteria on here, more so than deserved I reckon.

So as we sit level in fourth with 2 games in hand, I reckon we're looking pretty good. I must admit I'm not too optimistic about the first game in hand, Stoke away (what team would be?), but lets assume for a minute we lose that or draw 0-0. If we then win the home game against Liverpool, and our other game in hand which is also home, against Everton (whenever), we stand 6 points clear of Liverpool in fourth. Anything we get at Stoke then is a bonus.

Spuds and Villa are starting to creak at the seams as expected, so it's up to Mancini and the boys to do the business.

Currently the outlook is good, so please lets cut down on the hysteria if we get a bad result at Stoke. Third or at least fourth would still be a strong possibility.

[Alex Sapphire]

good analysis.
In summary
Nothing's changed
:)

[Niall Quinns Discopants]

good analysis.
In summary
Nothing's changed
:)

Except that we are sitting fifth on level points with fourth and game in hand (albeit against Everton in superform). Spurs are one point behind us and Villa two points and they've played two and one games respectively more than us.

So in fact, quite a lot has changed.

[Niall Quinns Discopants]

Also, this is what neutrals think.

http://www.teamtalk.com/football/poll/0 ... _r,00.html

Maybe we aren't as bad as we think we are?

[BobKowalski]

I think untold hysteria is our default position

I do agree but after the Hull game found myself avoiding everything City related, in fact everything football related, for 48 hours afterwards I was that pissed off.

The Bolton game provided much needed solace only to find that I was in a minority of 1 as apparently it was the worse performance ever by a PL team. Luckily the arse v scouse game last night served up two equally dire performances including the sight of Wenger trying out the alien tactic of shutting up shop on the 80 min mark and holding out for the 1-0 win. I keep getting told top teams don't do that sort of thing so I was a bit baffled but I am sure I will catch on eventually.

[Im_Spartacus]

Also, this is what neutrals think.

http://www.teamtalk.com/football/poll/0 ... _r,00.html

Maybe we aren't as bad as we think we are?

49% of the vote. Its looking good.

The problem with this topic is that whilst we are looking good for 4th spot with that game in hand, there is a better than even chance of the wheels coming off over our next run of games, as we have not really played anyone (bar Everton) who should really be putting our squad under pressure in the league, yet we are due to come up against some of the best teams and top managers in the league in the coming weeks. The likes of Wenger, Benitez, Ferguson beat Italian style teams for fun in the champs league, and the approach will be our undoing.

I dont think it is "typical city" to be expecting that to happen, I think most football fans are naturally cautiously optimistic, but when even the most positive of people are worried that it is only a matter of time until Mancini's approach goes tits up, it speaks volumes.

In light of it being poll week, I think we should do a poll about doing a poll, about doing a poll about a glass half full / half empty poll

[razor400]

Also, this is what neutrals think.

http://www.teamtalk.com/football/poll/0 ... _r,00.html

Maybe we aren't as bad as we think we are?

Never trust a public vote, look what happened in the last election.

[ant london]

I'm kinda with Johnpb78777

Even under Hughes I didn't feel like we have got out of the blocks properly this season. All of our performances have been flawed to a degree. When it's clicked going forward defence has looked shaky, when we've been solid at the back we've looked offensively impotent and all season we have lacked the creativity and vim that we demonstrated frequently last year.

I know we are sitting pretty from a results/league perspective but I am still worried/frustrated by the fact that (with all the quality playing resources we have) we have not really put a single team comprehensively to the sword.

We have played very well against top top opposition (Chelsea, Arsenal, Munes, Liverpool) but we have been poor against the "best of the rest" and, playing like we have been the last couple of games, I am fearful that the wheels could come off in a bad way.

Stoke away will be a tough tough game, even more so if we beat them this weekend in the cup.

I am finding this season exciting but I'm not enjoying it so much from a footballing perspective. I thought we would be amazing after the first couple of games....and we have been anything but. Part of me thinks we have to come good and that we have too good a squad/players for this not to "click" at some point but fuck me it's taking a while

[Douglas Higginbottom]

The more you look at the what if we do this or that scenarios the more you build up expectation and belief that we could finish 4th or 3rd or dominate the world or whatever. It's human nature or at least fan nature but it does also tend to lead to disappointment when something goes wrong. It only has to be an unexpected result like the Hull game and then it's all doom and gloom.

We all know we won't win every game along the way but somehow when the blip happens it's a disaster. Then a good win comes along and we are a shoe in again for 4th.Results wise so far says we are doing fine but for me the real worry is the actual form we are showing especially when we have a difficult game. Hopefully that is more of a blip too and we will work through that from now as I think we all know the form of the last 4 league games will make it difficult for us to make 4th place.

We need calmness and belief. Don't go OTT with a good win or a bad loss and stay fully behind the players and the manager.

[david yearsley]

I'm kinda with Johnpb78777

Even under Hughes I didn't feel like we have got out of the blocks properly this season. All of our performances have been flawed to a degree. When it's clicked going forward defence has looked shaky, when we've been solid at the back we've looked offensively impotent and all season we have lacked the creativity and vim that we demonstrated frequently last year.

I know we are sitting pretty from a results/league perspective but I am still worried/frustrated by the fact that (with all the quality playing resources we have) we have not really put a single team comprehensively to the sword.

We have played very well against top top opposition (Chelsea, Arsenal, Munes, Liverpool) but we have been poor against the "best of the rest" and, playing like we have been the last couple of games, I am fearful that the wheels could come off in a bad way.

Stoke away will be a tough tough game, even more so if we beat them this weekend in the cup.

I am finding this season exciting but I'm not enjoying it so much from a footballing perspective. I thought we would be amazing after the first couple of games....and we have been anything but. Part of me thinks we have to come good and that we have too good a squad/players for this not to "click" at some point but fuck me it's taking a while

Good post - I concur - I think we will either "click" or "slide" due to a lot of tough games coming up - if we click who knows where it could end?

[CityFanFromRome]

The Bolton game provided much needed solace only to find that I was in a minority of 1 as apparently it was the worse performance ever by a PL team. Luckily the arse v scouse game last night served up two equally dire performances including the sight of Wenger trying out the alien tactic of shutting up shop on the 80 min mark and holding out for the 1-0 win. I keep getting told top teams don't do that sort of thing so I was a bit baffled but I am sure I will catch on eventually.

Ahah, nice post mate, and I kind of agree with your points.

The problem with this topic is that whilst we are looking good for 4th spot with that game in hand, there is a better than even chance of the wheels coming off over our next run of games, as we have not really played anyone (bar Everton) who should really be putting our squad under pressure in the league, yet we are due to come up against some of the best teams and top managers in the league in the coming weeks. The likes of Wenger, Benitez, Ferguson beat Italian style teams for fun in the champs league, and the approach will be our undoing.

I dont think it is "typical city" to be expecting that to happen, I think most football fans are naturally cautiously optimistic, but when even the most positive of people are worried that it is only a matter of time until Mancini's approach goes tits up, it speaks volumes.

In light of it being poll week, I think we should do a poll about doing a poll, about doing a poll about a glass half full / half empty poll

As pointed out though, if we consider Everton away and Hull away, we only got one point less than Chelsea did, and to be honest Everton, even in top form, shouldn't put Chelsea under pressure, and yet they won 2-1. I really don't see things as bleak about our performances.

Also, Liverpool, Arsenal, etc. haven't always beat Italian style for fun. Most of the time, yes, but not always, and it was mostly due not to the tactics but to the different pace of the game the English teams are used to.

I don't know, maybe I'm not worried (too much) because I'm used to "Italian Style" and most of you are worried because you are used to a different kind of football, but I'm really not seeing things so black for us in those games.

The more you look at the what if we do this or that scenarios the more you build up expectation and belief that we could finish 4th or 3rd or dominate the world or whatever. It's human nature or at least fan nature but it does also tend to lead to disappointment when something goes wrong. It only has to be an unexpected result like the Hull game and then it's all doom and gloom.

Was it really so unexptected though, considering what Chelsea achieved there only three days earlier? In hindsight, maybe it wasn't.

[BobKowalski]

Also, this is what neutrals think.

http://www.teamtalk.com/football/poll/0 ... _r,00.html

Maybe we aren't as bad as we think we are?

49% of the vote. Its looking good.

The problem with this topic is that whilst we are looking good for 4th spot with that game in hand, there is a better than even chance of the wheels coming off over our next run of games, as we have not really played anyone (bar Everton) who should really be putting our squad under pressure in the league, yet we are due to come up against some of the best teams and top managers in the league in the coming weeks. The likes of Wenger, Benitez, Ferguson beat Italian style teams for fun in the champs league, and the approach will be our undoing.

You see I really don't get the "as we have not really played anyone (bar Everton) who should really be putting our squad under pressure in the league" bit. Are we talking about Wolves who held Liverpool to a draw and did the double over Spurs? Hull who battled Chelsea to a draw or Stoke who battle everyone and turned over Arsenal and held Liverpool? Blackburn beat Villa and so on. All teams we have played under Mancini and did ok against bar Hull.

I do find it odd that when we do win its automatically dismissed because its against a 'nothing team' - despite the fact that these 'nothing teams' have been a total pain in the arse for most of the top teams this season.

As for beating 'Italian teams for fun' in the champs league this is certainly true the last couple of years with Italian football on its knees after the match fixing scandal but I do seem to recall Milan spanking the scouse in the '07 final and Italian teams doing quite well up to '07 or at least comparable with PL teams. Not to mention an 'Italian style team' winning the World Cup or does that not count?

Sometimes I think City should just stick to British managers ala Hughes or Moyes. We would never win much save the odd cup but at least they 'get stuck in' and 'have a go' and they (usually) pick players in their proper positons :)

[Alex Sapphire]

good analysis.
In summary
Nothing's changed
:)

Except that we are sitting fifth on level points with fourth and game in hand (albeit against Everton in superform). Spurs are one point behind us and Villa two points and they've played two and one games respectively more than us.

So in fact, quite a lot has changed.

the highest we can climb by winning our games in hand is fourth.
this was also true on 31st Jan, 31st Dec, 30th Nov,
this hasn't changed.
what has changed is to do better than this we have to win 2 games rather than the 1 that were required earlier in the season, so if anything it's less likely

[Im_Spartacus]

Also, this is what neutrals think.

http://www.teamtalk.com/football/poll/0 ... _r,00.html

Maybe we aren't as bad as we think we are?

49% of the vote. Its looking good.

The problem with this topic is that whilst we are looking good for 4th spot with that game in hand, there is a better than even chance of the wheels coming off over our next run of games, as we have not really played anyone (bar Everton) who should really be putting our squad under pressure in the league, yet we are due to come up against some of the best teams and top managers in the league in the coming weeks. The likes of Wenger, Benitez, Ferguson beat Italian style teams for fun in the champs league, and the approach will be our undoing.

You see I really don't get the "as we have not really played anyone (bar Everton) who should really be putting our squad under pressure in the league" bit. Are we talking about Wolves who held Liverpool to a draw and did the double over Spurs? Hull who battled Chelsea to a draw or Stoke who battle everyone and turned over Arsenal and held Liverpool? Blackburn beat Villa and so on. All teams we have played under Mancini and did ok against bar Hull.

I do find it odd that when we do win its automatically dismissed because its against a 'nothing team' - despite the fact that these 'nothing teams' have been a total pain in the arse for most of the top teams this season.

As for beating 'Italian teams for fun' in the champs league this is certainly true the last couple of years with Italian football on its knees after the match fixing scandal but I do seem to recall Milan spanking the scouse in the '07 final and Italian teams doing quite well up to '07 or at least comparable with PL teams. Not to mention an 'Italian style team' winning the World Cup or does that not count?

Sometimes I think City should just stick to British managers ala Hughes or Moyes. We would never win much save the odd cup but at least they 'get stuck in' and 'have a go' and they (usually) pick players in their proper positons :)

I am in no way dismissing teams like Wolves, Hull, Burnley etc, as they all have a part to play in the league. The fact is though, that we have better quality in our squad than them, and that is a inescapable fact. The reasons for a defeat against such teams are not because your team is inferior, but because the direction and motivation is not equal to the direction and motivation of the opposition - the quality of the players on show rarely comes into it when your opposition are super motivated - see Leeds vs United, Bolton finishing 6th in 2006 etc etc.

So yes, Hull, we should have beaten them on paper as we should at home, and Burnley, Fulham etc, but the game isnt played on paper, the largest part of it is played in the minds of those on the pitch - which is the single biggest influence on a result.

If enough players are not sufficiently motivated, or they have doubts about the role they are being asked to play, or for that matter if they are just so highly paid they dont give a fuck, then you are on a hiding to nothing whether you are playing Arsenal or Aldershot. Sometimes if you are lucky, on those off days, the quality of your players alone will be enough to see you through, and I think that is where we have been vs Bolton / Pompey, but was not enough against Hull. It absolutely wont wash with teams in the top half of the table, unless we are lucky enough to catch them on a day when they have that direction or motivation missing. They are top teams because, they have less off days than the rest, AND they have the quality.

My frustrations, and that of many on here I suspect is down to the fact that we know we are good enough in terms of quality, but are somewhat lacking in terms of direction and motivation. If the Italian style direction is not a style the players feel comfortable with then confidence goes, fluidity goes, and you start to make mistakes, get your head down, then end up losing games which again on paper, you should be winning easily. That does not bode well for games against the top sides, who have both motivation and confidence on more occasions than it is missing.

And that is not aimed solely at Mancini - because it was evident under Hughes too

[BobKowalski]

Also, this is what neutrals think.

http://www.teamtalk.com/football/poll/0 ... _r,00.html

Maybe we aren't as bad as we think we are?

49% of the vote. Its looking good.

The problem with this topic is that whilst we are looking good for 4th spot with that game in hand, there is a better than even chance of the wheels coming off over our next run of games, as we have not really played anyone (bar Everton) who should really be putting our squad under pressure in the league, yet we are due to come up against some of the best teams and top managers in the league in the coming weeks. The likes of Wenger, Benitez, Ferguson beat Italian style teams for fun in the champs league, and the approach will be our undoing.

You see I really don't get the "as we have not really played anyone (bar Everton) who should really be putting our squad under pressure in the league" bit. Are we talking about Wolves who held Liverpool to a draw and did the double over Spurs? Hull who battled Chelsea to a draw or Stoke who battle everyone and turned over Arsenal and held Liverpool? Blackburn beat Villa and so on. All teams we have played under Mancini and did ok against bar Hull.

I do find it odd that when we do win its automatically dismissed because its against a 'nothing team' - despite the fact that these 'nothing teams' have been a total pain in the arse for most of the top teams this season.

As for beating 'Italian teams for fun' in the champs league this is certainly true the last couple of years with Italian football on its knees after the match fixing scandal but I do seem to recall Milan spanking the scouse in the '07 final and Italian teams doing quite well up to '07 or at least comparable with PL teams. Not to mention an 'Italian style team' winning the World Cup or does that not count?

Sometimes I think City should just stick to British managers ala Hughes or Moyes. We would never win much save the odd cup but at least they 'get stuck in' and 'have a go' and they (usually) pick players in their proper positons :)

I am in no way dismissing teams like Wolves, Hull, Burnley etc, as they all have a part to play in the league. The fact is though, that we have better quality in our squad than them, and that is a inescapable fact. The reasons for a defeat against such teams are not because your team is inferior, but because the direction and motivation is not equal to the direction and motivation of the opposition - the quality of the players on show rarely comes into it when your opposition are super motivated - see Leeds vs U***d, Bolton finishing 6th in 2006 etc etc.

So yes, Hull, we should have beaten them on paper as we should at home, and Burnley, Fulham etc, but the game isnt played on paper, the largest part of it is played in the minds of those on the pitch - which is the single biggest influence on a result.

I agree. Mentality is what seperates the teams at the top from the pretenders to the throne (spurs, villa) and mentality is what is keeping a fairly average team like Liverpool in the hunt for 4th. What Mourinho gave Chelsea was belief that they could win the title and win they did and that belief is still in their DNA. If the players do not believe in Mancini (or in any manager) then the team will not win that 4th spot or anything for that matter and Mancini will not last beyond the summer.

It all comes down to leadership which was my biggest problem with Hughes and it remains to be see whether Mancini can instill that hard, winning mentality into the team in the short space of time he has to work with them. Not that he has any choice because his tenure as City manager depends onit.

Which is partly why I don't get too angst ridden over the Bolton performance because Mancini did what I expected him too and what he needed to do and that was win the game. I do not care how he won it or what players he used to win it but I did expect him to win it. I also expected him to win at Hull and I literally sulked like a spoilt brat for 48 hours afterwards when he didn't.

But I do not lightly dismiss the wins we do get. None of the teams we face are going to roll over and die for us and any victory has value no matter who it is against.

[Original Dub]

good analysis.
In summary
Nothing's changed
:)

Except that we are sitting fifth on level points with fourth and game in hand (albeit against Everton in superform). Spurs are one point behind us and Villa two points and they've played two and one games respectively more than us.

So in fact, quite a lot has changed.

the highest we can climb by winning our games in hand is fourth.
this was also true on 31st Jan, 31st Dec, 30th Nov,
this hasn't changed.
what has changed is to do better than this we have to win 2 games rather than the 1 that were required earlier in the season, so if anything it's less likely

Exactly, nothing has changed.

well, the football has obviously. But the ability to disappoint is still very much there.

[Ted Hughes]

Sometimes I think City should just stick to British managers ala Hughes or Moyes. We would never win much save the odd cup but at least they 'get stuck in' and 'have a go' and they (usually) pick players in their proper positons :)

Or other british no marks like Ferguson, Clough, Shankley, Mercer. Who wants them when we could have Italian managers who's record of success in this country is second to....oh hang on..

[Original Dub]

Sometimes I think City should just stick to British managers ala Hughes or Moyes. We would never win much save the odd cup but at least they 'get stuck in' and 'have a go' and they (usually) pick players in their proper positons :)

Or other british no marks like Ferguson, Clough, Shankley, Mercer. Who wants them when we could have Italian managers who's record of success in this country is second to....oh hang on..

More references to hughes...

Is this Bob fella for real??!

FFS.

[btajim]

Except that we are sitting fifth on level points with fourth and game in hand (albeit against Everton in superform). Spurs are one point behind us and Villa two points and they've played two and one games respectively more than us.

So in fact, quite a lot has changed.

Two Games in hand where Liverpool are concerned. Win both and we're 6 points clear with a superior Goal difference. The latter being obvious if we have to score Goals to win the game.

What I do worry about is Liverpool not having Champions League or FA Cup fixtures so they can almost fully concentrate on the push for 4th. I know they're now in the UEFA but I've no idea where Unirea Urziceni is! I doubt many Mickeys do, either.

Edit - Premiership Table: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/eng_prem/table/default.stm

[john@staustell]

I think untold hysteria is our default position

I do agree but after the Hull game found myself avoiding everything City related, in fact everything football related, for 48 hours afterwards I was that pissed off.

The Bolton game provided much needed solace only to find that I was in a minority of 1 as apparently it was the worse performance ever by a PL team. Luckily the arse v scouse game last night served up two equally dire performances including the sight of Wenger trying out the alien tactic of shutting up shop on the 80 min mark and holding out for the 1-0 win. I keep getting told top teams don't do that sort of thing so I was a bit baffled but I am sure I will catch on eventually.

I've been thinking for a while that every time City play a bit off, or if we win less than 3-0, the commentators at the match - including the 'great' Andy Gray - say how we are poor, this is poor, that is poor, he is poor etc. Yet when we watch rubbish like last night among the 'SKY 4' (which is quite often this season) they just pass it off as an 'oh well' sort of thing. They just never come in for the same criticism for poor play.