Training Differences

[Douglas Higginbottom]

And just to add thanks for taking the time to post this.

Thanks Bob. To answer one of the points you made earlier I think you are right that the less fun if I am right in this is all about the greater emphasis on tactical work/thinking. They are being drilled to understand what to do where to be in all sorts of situations. Some will require more time on this than others( don't need to name names do I?)

Not really no :)

Going back to the tactical work/thinking part I kind of think that this has eroded the free flowing going forward bit. I anticipate that this is a short term effect and once the players are fully grounded in what Mancini wants from them and can do it automatically the rest of their play can kick in. It makes sense though as we had to plug the gaping holes at the back.

That's exactly how I see it and hope it is.

[david yearsley]

And just to add thanks for taking the time to post this.

Thanks Bob. To answer one of the points you made earlier I think you are right that the less fun if I am right in this is all about the greater emphasis on tactical work/thinking. They are being drilled to understand what to do where to be in all sorts of situations. Some will require more time on this than others( don't need to name names do I?)

Not really no :)

Going back to the tactical work/thinking part I kind of think that this has eroded the free flowing going forward bit. I anticipate that this is a short term effect and once the players are fully grounded in what Mancini wants from them and can do it automatically the rest of their play can kick in. It makes sense though as we had to plug the gaping holes at the back.

That's exactly how I see it and hope it is.

I agree with this bit and believe if this clicks quickly we´re on the verge of something exciting

[Kladze]

You tell us often Doug about how Mancini works the squad about keeping a specific shape as the imaginary ball is moved around the field. Is this mainly concerning the defensive aspect of our game? or is he (Mancio) started to apply that to our attacking efforts too?

I know it may be difficult to keep a shape on a brisk counter-attack but in our general (offensive) build up play there often seems to be a shocking lack of cohesion between the midfield and forwards.

[Ted Hughes]

Cheers for that Doug, very interesting indeed.

Glad to hear they're still doing corners. Think Hughes should have prioritised it a bit more. It all seems fair enough on the whole, he was obviously brought in to improve our defending so no surprise he's working on that. Hopefully attacking comes next. The only thing I really don't like the sound of is the fitness training being less organised. I hope we don't go down the Sven road with that.

I particularly like the sound of your little insinuation about it being more attacking tomorrow. That raises my anticipation level from zero to reasonably high.

Daft question Doug but could the perceived slight drop in happy team spirit, rather than being due to the lack of training intensity etc, be a result of it being winter, the Semi final defeat & Robinho leaving?

[Douglas Higginbottom]

You tell us often Doug about how Mancini works the squad about keeping a specific shape as the imaginary ball is moved around the field. Is this mainly concerning the defensive aspect of our game? or is he (Mancio) started to apply that to our attacking efforts too?

I know it may be difficult to keep a shape on a brisk counter-attack but in our general (offensive) build up play there often seems to be a shocking lack of cohesion between the midfield and forwards.

I don't think it focusses on either especially. It's simply about players staying in contact with each other i suppose and when he does move around the filed he will have the " ball" at times deep in the attacking corners as well as in defence.

[Douglas Higginbottom]

Cheers for that Doug, very interesting indeed.

Glad to hear they're still doing corners. Think Hughes should have prioritised it a bit more. It all seems fair enough on the whole, he was obviously brought in to improve our defending so no surprise he's working on that. Hopefully attacking comes next. The only thing I really don't like the sound of is the fitness training being less organised. I hope we don't go down the Sven road with that.

I particularly like the sound of your little insinuation about it being more attacking tomorrow. That raises my anticipation level from zero to reasonably high.

Daft question Doug but could the perceived slight drop in happy team spirit, rather than being due to the lack of training intensity etc, be a result of it being winter, the Semi final defeat & Robinho leaving?

On the fitness question I think Carminati has spoken about how good the general fitness was of the squad so once you are deep into a season it's as much a question of keeping it there and with frequent matches there is less need for full on physical training sessions.

On the "daft" question I don't think I said there is a drop in team spirit . I did say " I can't say I have seen anything negative at all about the cameraderie/bonding within the team" It's just that there is less obvious fun and players having a laugh whilst they are out there. There is some but it's just not as often and I don't think it has anything at all to do with the intensity.I think I did mention Robinho and 2 other players who are or have been missing which will have been part of that reason but yes also the semi defeat will not have helped.

I don't think the winter aspect would be relevant though. The training when there was snow everywhere was one of the days with some fun around if you recall the Micah snowball down Robi's neck. I also recall a training session when the weather /rain was terrible and the pitches were saturated but that day the team just had a great time. ( that one was pre Mancini but wintry)

[Ted Hughes]

Cheers for that Doug, very interesting indeed.

Glad to hear they're still doing corners. Think Hughes should have prioritised it a bit more. It all seems fair enough on the whole, he was obviously brought in to improve our defending so no surprise he's working on that. Hopefully attacking comes next. The only thing I really don't like the sound of is the fitness training being less organised. I hope we don't go down the Sven road with that.

I particularly like the sound of your little insinuation about it being more attacking tomorrow. That raises my anticipation level from zero to reasonably high.

Daft question Doug but could the perceived slight drop in happy team spirit, rather than being due to the lack of training intensity etc, be a result of it being winter, the Semi final defeat & Robinho leaving?

On the fitness question I think Carminati has spoken about how good the general fitness was of the squad so once you are deep into a season it's as much a question of keeping it there and with frequent matches there is less need for full on physical training sessions.

On the "daft" question I don't think I said there is a drop in team spirit . I did say " I can't say I have seen anything negative at all about the cameraderie/bonding within the team" It's just that there is less obvious fun and players having a laugh whilst they are out there. There is some but it's just not as often and I don't think it has anything at all to do with the intensity.I think I did mention Robinho and 2 other players who are or have been missing which will have been part of that reason but yes also the semi defeat will not have helped.

I don't think the winter aspect would be relevant though. The training when there was snow everywhere was one of the days with some fun around if you recall the Micah snowball down Robi's neck. I also recall a training session when the weather /rain was terrible and the pitches were saturated but that day the team just had a great time. ( that one was pre Mancini but wintry)

Ok thanks for clearing it up.

[Kladze]

You tell us often Doug about how Mancini works the squad about keeping a specific shape as the imaginary ball is moved around the field. Is this mainly concerning the defensive aspect of our game? or is he (Mancio) started to apply that to our attacking efforts too?

I know it may be difficult to keep a shape on a brisk counter-attack but in our general (offensive) build up play there often seems to be a shocking lack of cohesion between the midfield and forwards.

I don't think it focusses on either especially. It's simply about players staying in contact with each other i suppose and when he does move around the filed he will have the " ball" at times deep in the attacking corners as well as in defence.

Cheers Doug, I see your point more now :-)

I've just been concerned lately that our midfield players seldom seem to break their necks to get beyond the nominal forwards from central areas, and that (imo) has contributed to us appearing to be somewhat less 'toothy' up front.

[Douglas Higginbottom]

You tell us often Doug about how Mancini works the squad about keeping a specific shape as the imaginary ball is moved around the field. Is this mainly concerning the defensive aspect of our game? or is he (Mancio) started to apply that to our attacking efforts too?

I know it may be difficult to keep a shape on a brisk counter-attack but in our general (offensive) build up play there often seems to be a shocking lack of cohesion between the midfield and forwards.

I don't think it focusses on either especially. It's simply about players staying in contact with each other i suppose and when he does move around the filed he will have the " ball" at times deep in the attacking corners as well as in defence.

Cheers Doug, I see your point more now :-)

I've just been concerned lately that our midfield players seldom seem to break their necks to get beyond the nominal forwards from central areas, and that (imo) has contributed to us appearing to be somewhat less 'toothy' up front.

There has been emphasis on defensive stability and the etam shape being maintained as much as possible. Even against BBurn when we wre 2 up Fat Sam commented that Mancini could be heard shouting at the full backs not to get too far forward. Have faith and I am sure more attacking displays will come.

[Ted Hughes]

That's what I'm hoping for/expecting, that wheras Hughes was working from the front backwards, Mancini is working from the back, forwards & eventually the two will meet so we'll have back Hughes' attack with a more solid defence.

(if that makes any sense whatsoever!)

[Beefymcfc]

AlthoughI don't like it, Mancio seems to be setting a mind set. For me it was to early, for the team we'll wait and see!?!

[Kladze]

You tell us often Doug about how Mancini works the squad about keeping a specific shape as the imaginary ball is moved around the field. Is this mainly concerning the defensive aspect of our game? or is he (Mancio) started to apply that to our attacking efforts too?

I know it may be difficult to keep a shape on a brisk counter-attack but in our general (offensive) build up play there often seems to be a shocking lack of cohesion between the midfield and forwards.

I don't think it focusses on either especially. It's simply about players staying in contact with each other i suppose and when he does move around the filed he will have the " ball" at times deep in the attacking corners as well as in defence.

Cheers Doug, I see your point more now :-)

I've just been concerned lately that our midfield players seldom seem to break their necks to get beyond the nominal forwards from central areas, and that (imo) has contributed to us appearing to be somewhat less 'toothy' up front.

There has been emphasis on defensive stability and the etam shape being maintained as much as possible. Even against BBurn when we wre 2 up Fat Sam commented that Mancini could be heard shouting at the full backs not to get too far forward. Have faith and I am sure more attacking displays will come.

Oh I'm not short of faith or patience, providing I can see progress :-)

[Niall Quinns Discopants]

Thanks Dougie for brilliant report.

Few things, One of Robbie's coaches said that first thing to do is to fix the defence so i assume that's why so much emphasis is put on it right now. Going forward will follow.

11 vs 11 exercises during the training. This is very much matter of opinion but when I was youngster and playing in very decent level we had two coaches. First in younger age group we basically never had 11 vs 11 games on training (Well there were occasional tactical drill like the one where you can run at all but not out and out 11 vs 11 games). When I moved up an age group we ended every training session in 11 vs 11 game (usually with bit of twist in rules like you can only score with a header or something like that). FOR ME, the latter wasn't as good as the first one. The reason is simple, in big games you spend less time with actual ball. Then again, some of the other lads were saying how much fun it was to have actual game in the end of the session. Maybe I was just miserable bastard even back then. Point is, I think you don't need to have 11 vs 11 games and if you are looking to improve players individually it might even be better not to have them.

Not trainining set pieces under Hughes (and company) is unforgivable for me. In the end, it doesn't take much time and it certainly does not take much effort from players

Biggest worry here is lack of laughs in the training ground. This could have efect on our results and even how well we train unless improved at some stage. Doug obviously sees them on the training ground and can correct me but seeing and reading all the interviews with our players, it seems we are lacking bit on the jester department. These players are more important in training ground and when the team are on the road together. They can give everyone a laugh when they need one and relieve pressure when it's on by cracking a joke. That's why I said while back before summer that we should try and sign Jimmy Bullard. He is alright footballer who'd be nice player to introduce from bench/play in cup games but first and foremost he is supposed to be a dressing room legend.

Things like who sets and collects the cones, well I think that's petty stuff and don't mean much at all. Except the ball boy might be pissed off hat he has extra work.

Doug, I feel genuinely sorry for you that you've lost that connection you had with Taffia but how about trying to build rapport with new coaching set up.

[john68]

Thanks for that Doug.
...and also the the full answers to the questions asked.
I have no further questions...but you may be called back to the stand at a later time....:-)

[CityFanFromRome]

I am a bit confused about the "Hughes and other managers don't spend too much time practicing set pieces". I mean, the Premier League is one of the leagues where it's most frequent to see goals scored from a set piece because many teams put a lot of effort in those situations when attacking (Stoke, Everton, Bolton under Megson, just to name a few), so it doesn't really make sense to me that managers who have spent all their career there won't bother too much about defending them.

[Douglas Higginbottom]

Thanks Dougie for brilliant report.

Few things, One of Robbie's coaches said that first thing to do is to fix the defence so i assume that's why so much emphasis is put on it right now. Going forward will follow.

11 vs 11 exercises during the training. This is very much matter of opinion but when I was youngster and playing in very decent level we had two coaches. First in younger age group we basically never had 11 vs 11 games on training (Well there were occasional tactical drill like the one where you can run at all but not out and out 11 vs 11 games). When I moved up an age group we ended every training session in 11 vs 11 game (usually with bit of twist in rules like you can only score with a header or something like that). FOR ME, the latter wasn't as good as the first one. The reason is simple, in big games you spend less time with actual ball. Then again, some of the other lads were saying how much fun it was to have actual game in the end of the session. Maybe I was just miserable bastard even back then. Point is, I think you don't need to have 11 vs 11 games and if you are looking to improve players individually it might even be better not to have them.

Not trainining set pieces under Hughes (and company) is unforgivable for me. In the end, it doesn't take much time and it certainly does not take much effort from players

Biggest worry here is lack of laughs in the training ground. This could have efect on our results and even how well we train unless improved at some stage. Doug obviously sees them on the training ground and can correct me but seeing and reading all the interviews with our players, it seems we are lacking bit on the jester department. These players are more important in training ground and when the team are on the road together. They can give everyone a laugh when they need one and relieve pressure when it's on by cracking a joke. That's why I said while back before summer that we should try and sign Jimmy Bullard. He is alright footballer who'd be nice player to introduce from bench/play in cup games but first and foremost he is supposed to be a dressing room legend.

Things like who sets and collects the cones, well I think that's petty stuff and don't mean much at all. Except the ball boy might be pissed off hat he has extra work.

Doug, I feel genuinely sorry for you that you've lost that connection you had with Taffia but how about trying to build rapport with new coaching set up.

Just to respond to a couple of the points.
I sort of know what you mean re the 11 v 11 scenario. It would seem to be more the norm outside the UK not to have the full game type of practice. I just wonder when you have worked a lot on team shape and specific formations whether it would be logical to test it out and the players understanding of it and the movements within it by having the full match practice. Not for a long match or anything but even 10 minutes or so to ensure it has " sunk in" effectively. Just down to different methods.

Re the set pieces I agree. I think I bored Bowen a bit when mentioning set pieces. Interesting thought though that when you decide the method to defend them is individual marking it appears to me there is less to practice than zonal. Effectively you are given a man to mark and that's it. You do that effectively and it's job done if he does score or affect the play.A bit simplistic maybe but the trouble was our defenders just kept failing in their jobs. Zonal is quite different and needs more careful thought re positioning and especially when it is alien to the players.Whatever the reality is the current approach is working miles better.

On the fun /jester part I would say again it's not that they aren't a good unit with good team spirit and have no fun whatsoever. It's just my perception that they don't have as many laughs as before. I can certainly associate with your comments about having a clown in the ranks( a talented player as well of course) being worth his weight in gold.

As for getting in with the new staff I am still working on it. Both Kidd and Mancini are aware that I am a regular and I have had the odd word from Kidd plus there are still 2 physios from " the past".

[Ted Hughes]

I can certainly associate with your comments about having a clown in the ranks.

Not an area we've been lacking over the years, just not been very funny.

[King Kev]

Thanks for taking the time to post that Doug, very interesting indeed.

I must admit that I fully expected to read about how every aspect of training had improved. I was therefore, a bit concerned about the lack of 11 v 11 games, the lower intensity of the training and the full team not training together at certain aspects.

Only time will tell if this is a better way of training or not I suppose.

[Crossie]

Great Doug,

The feeling I get is that with Hughes it was my way or the highway. Militant strict fitness based, you will fall into line and do it my way or your on the bench, i.e Elano, Petrov, then bringing in of Bellers, NDJ etc.

The fact is our players are high quality, there also millionaires and they know what there doing with the fundamentals of the game.

I think Mancini seems to have a more hands on pat on the back father figure approach. I think that is the best way to get modern day players playing together properly. They need their egos massarging.

Like most people have said, the priority was the defence, keeping the fullbacks back etc. This might be what Mancini thinks is best with the choice of player we have. Especially at full back. Given a summer window I think we would see a new right back left back and almost a new midfield or his choice.

[Blue Since 76]

Great comparison, Doug.

If anyone has ever read the Marcotti/Vialli book, some of the changes will make sense. There is a lot in their about the difference between Italian and English teams in training. One of the biggest ones was that in Italy they spend a lot of time going over the tactics, almost to the point of boredom. For instance, on defending a corner, they would repeat the same exercise numerous times until all the players understood it and did it automatically. In England, the emphasis was more on the 11 a side game and the reason given, possibly by Sven, was that it was too windy in England, so the players freeze if they are just standing there being talked to.

I've always been surprised that teams over here don't do more training indoors. If it's defending a corner, it doesn't matter if it's on astroturf and you could do it for hours in comfort. Maybe we'll get a decent indoor area if they move from Carrington. Also keeps the press away.