Training Differences

[Douglas Higginbottom]

Great comparison, Doug.

If anyone has ever read the Marcotti/Vialli book, some of the changes will make sense. There is a lot in their about the difference between Italian and English teams in training. One of the biggest ones was that in Italy they spend a lot of time going over the tactics, almost to the point of boredom. For instance, on defending a corner, they would repeat the same exercise numerous times until all the players understood it and did it automatically. In England, the emphasis was more on the 11 a side game and the reason given, possibly by Sven, was that it was too windy in England, so the players freeze if they are just standing there being talked to.

I've always been surprised that teams over here don't do more training indoors. If it's defending a corner, it doesn't matter if it's on astroturf and you could do it for hours in comfort. Maybe we'll get a decent indoor area if they move from Carrington. Also keeps the press away.

2 good points there. First the players freezing.That has certainly occured to me watching them. I have been watching wrapped up in about 7 layers of clothes and still freezing whilst they have done very little say over the first 30 minutes of a session excpet jog around the field basically listening to the boss.
Re the idea of indoor training of course Carrington doesn't have a proper indoor facility although there is one at Platt Lane. However there is an area cordened off by trees at Carrington that I know has been used in the past for such "private " training. As some of the "practice" is theory and done without a ball you almost don't need to be on a pitch of any sort!

[Bojinov's left foot]

Thanks for the post Doug, interesting as always.

Is there ever any work on quick break aways when we have took possession from defending a corner? We have quick players in SWP, Adebayor, Johnson and others. If Given was given instructions to release the ball immediately with people instructed to run then this could provide quick counter attack opportunites rather than giving the opposition time to re-group.

[Douglas Higginbottom]

Thanks for the post Doug, interesting as always.

Is there ever any work on quick break aways when we have took possession from defending a corner? We have quick players in SWP, Adebayor, Johnson and others. If Given was given instructions to release the ball immediately with people instructed to run then this could provide quick counter attack opportunites rather than giving the opposition time to re-group.

Actually that's part of what they were doing yesterday ( I try not to put all detail in the posts after training) Although all the team were back defending the set piece there seemed to be 3 who led the sprint away hoping to latch onto a headed clearance or throw from Shay. 2 of the 3 always being SWP and Stevie. made me laugh though when they lined up to defend the inswinging free kick SWP was the 1 man wall and Stevie was the man in the hole for the ball that doesnt get high enough.Good positions to break from but not the most effective heightwise to be of value in those places.

[MaineRoadMemories]

Bumpage for any journos looking at us and needing a "City Source" for their newspapers articles tomorrow :-)

[getdressedmctavish]

Interesting stuff, Doug. I was always amazed the Taffs didn't appear able to stop the comedy goals going in and apparently did little about it in training, when they were always likely to lose their jobs because of it. I knew a lot of coaches did feck all in this area, Wenger for example.But I thought Hughes would have been more of a planner and organiser than it seemed he was. I was delighted when Mancini originally got to grips with it but now feel, perhaps unreasonably, that he has chucked the baby out with the bath water.The fun/team spirit issue is a tricky one. I always used to have my anticipation raised by your description of the positive attitude at training only to be disappointed by often aimless dispirited performances on match day. What is undeniable is that teams playing us appear to be far more spirited and cohesive than we are, particularly since Mancini arrived. Is it just that we are a soft target, or is it something that can be pinpointed.Barry, for example, trys hard but seems totally pissed off.Ditto Ireland, Shay, Bellers,Ade.no one seems to be having fun out there on the pitch anymore.

[john68]

Interesting point about SWP and Ireland Doug.
I noticed at the Stoke (Saturday game) that for set pieces, both SWP and Ireland were on the edge of the box infront of our defence looking ready to pick up loose stuff and possibly break out.
It looks as though Mancini has set his defence up and is now using those two as a release from possible pressure.

That said, it was Whelan that seemed to be getting the 2nd phase stuff on Tues.

[Citizen of Oslo]

Thanks Doug for reflected and informative post.

[Mr Miyagi]

People seem to be getting worried about this emphasis on doing "walk-throughs" rather than running around. I don't think we should get too worried because many top managers do this, including Mourinho. In fact, I remember reading SWP struggled with those tactical drills, which was why he fell out of favour with Mourinho. Although that doesn't augur well for SWP now does it? But I'm sure sure you get what I'm saying :-)

The other point is this: Mancini has proven success. We are talking about someone who has won Cups and League championships in Italy several times. Whenever changes are introduced there will be short term problems, but we need to trust that Mancini is doing it for a reason.

[BobKowalski]

People seem to be getting worried about this emphasis on doing "walk-throughs" rather than running around. I don't think we should get too worried because many top managers do this, including Mourinho. In fact, I remember reading SWP struggled with those tactical drills, which was why he fell out of favour with Mourinho. Although that doesn't augur well for SWP now does it? But I'm sure sure you get what I'm saying :-)

The other point is this: Mancini has proven success. We are talking about someone who has won Cups and League championships in Italy several times. Whenever changes are introduced there will be short term problems, but we need to trust that Mancini is doing it for a reason.

SWP did struggle with the training regime and level of expectation although he did seem to come back into the picture and was playing in the first team until Jose walked out and he found himself back at square 1 if memory serves. As Robbie Keane found out there is a world of difference between the top elite clubs (for want of a better phrase) and the pretenders. The intensity, the expectation, the focus is much higher. I found Doug's comments interesting about the sessions being less fun under Mancini with a greater emphasis on tactical and positional work and thinking about the game as opposed to a good hard physicial session with a footie match at the end for fun. I can see how this change would be less enjoyable especially considering Mancini's constant call to concentrate, concentrate and when in doubt concentrate. The physical side is obviously important over a long season so this is not a dig at the old regime especially as the new staff have been very complimentary about the players fitness but it is a different mind set needed to get to and stay at the very top and there will be casualties along the way irrespective of whether Mancini stays or not because it won't be any easer under a Mourinho or indeed any world class manager.

For me irrespective of how poorly we are performing at the moment Mancini does have the necessary mindset needed by City to take them forward. Whether he can imprint this on City's DNA quickly enough remains to be seen but if he doesn't or can't then someone like Mourinho will.

[Ted Hughes]

I think he can do it but imo he's got 2 big problems & only one which is in his power to solve, 1) he'll lose the backing of a significant number of fans unless he plays better football & 2) I think Mourinho is the choice of the board for the job & if he accepts, it won't matter what Mancini has achieved, he'll still be gone.

The '6 month' thing that keeps coming up is a huge elephant in Mancini's room & the club could get rid of it with a few words but haven't.

[BobKowalski]

I think he can do it but imo he's got 2 big problems & only one which is in his power to solve, 1) he'll lose the backing of a significant number of fans unless he plays better football & 2) I think Mourinho is the choice of the board for the job & if he accepts, it won't matter what Mancini has achieved, he'll still be gone.

The '6 month' thing that keeps coming up is a huge elephant in Mancini's room & the club could get rid of it with a few words but haven't.

Agreed. Trouble with 1) is that if he tries to please the fans he'll end up pissing off the Sheikh who wants results first , second and third so if its a choice between the fans and the Sheikh then the fans are possibly in for a long, hard few months. If Mourinho is the choice of the board, and given Mourinho's record it is no surprise if it is, then it doesn't matter a toss what happens so might as well sit back, enjoy the ride and wait for phase III under Jose in the summer. Reckon I could live with that!

[Douglas Higginbottom]

The Sheikh will be only too aware that our results against Everton,Hull,Stoke,Stoke and the scum were not quite what they were after.Better performances are essential to get the right kind of results so both will happen at the same time and we are all happy.

[dazby]

Great post Doug. My questions may be a bit difficult to answer. How effective do you think Mancio is getting his message across? How far into getting the team to play his way do you think the team is? Can you hear what Mancio says in training about tactics and are the players a bit thick? Would it be fair to say that training is now concentration based rather than physical?

[Ted Hughes]

I think he can do it but imo he's got 2 big problems & only one which is in his power to solve, 1) he'll lose the backing of a significant number of fans unless he plays better football & 2) I think Mourinho is the choice of the board for the job & if he accepts, it won't matter what Mancini has achieved, he'll still be gone.

The '6 month' thing that keeps coming up is a huge elephant in Mancini's room & the club could get rid of it with a few words but haven't.

Agreed. Trouble with 1) is that if he tries to please the fans he'll end up pissing off the Sheikh who wants results first , second and third so if its a choice between the fans and the Sheikh then the fans are possibly in for a long, hard few months. If Mourinho is the choice of the board, and given Mourinho's record it is no surprise if it is, then it doesn't matter a toss what happens so might as well sit back, enjoy the ride and wait for phase III under Jose in the summer. Reckon I could live with that!

If Mourinho comes though, it will all be about him rather than City & we'll probably just have wall to wall 'Sun' & 'News Of The World' type behaviour, day in day out, for the limited period he decides to be here until he decides to pick an argument with HRH before fucking off to manage rags, Portugal, Real etc leaving us with the problem of replacing him. Be so much easier in the long run just to let Mancini get on with it.

[FA cup winners 2006]

thanks doug,

the one main thing which you pointed out that i think matters the most is the intensity.

you can see when we attack now that we have no ideas, no igenuity and no ideas what to do, this is surely down to the training (or the lack there of)

on our defensive side of things, we seem OK when initially defending set pieces but if we dont clear fully and a 2nd ball comes in we seem all at odds and under pressure.

[Bluez]

Bumpage for any journos looking at us and needing a "City Source" for their newspapers articles tomorrow :-)

Looks like they paid attention, Mail On Sunday has an article on arguments about the new training regime

[Niall Quinns Discopants]

I think he can do it but imo he's got 2 big problems & only one which is in his power to solve, 1) he'll lose the backing of a significant number of fans unless he plays better football & 2) I think Mourinho is the choice of the board for the job & if he accepts, it won't matter what Mancini has achieved, he'll still be gone.

The '6 month' thing that keeps coming up is a huge elephant in Mancini's room & the club could get rid of it with a few words but haven't.

I fully agree with this. The '6 month' thing means that he has absolutely NO room for errors at any stage. Which naturally leads to him being bit panicky and overreacting to individual results. Losing to everton seemed to be massive blow for him and I feel he may have tactically overreacted to what was just a bad day in office.

Also, he has no time to slowly introduce his tactical ideas which let's face it is needed to make a team that are going to be regular winners. He can't think that this and that can wait 'til summer when I have players to do it or whatever.

This post isn't by the way about making excuses for him. The same would've been the case for any manager coming in. This is also why in the end I felt we should stick with Hughes until the end of the season as I knew the new manager would be under ridiculous pressure from both supporters and the board. I fear that we may be wasting a very good manager here.

Mourinho, well people seem all too sure that he'd come but I don't think it's as simple as that. There'd be lot of suitors for probably the best results manager in the world. Hiddink clearly prefers managing national sides. Other than those two I really honestly don't see anyone as good as Mancini for us. If we drive him away and can't get Mourinho or he can't do his thing for us, we are fucked.

[Douglas Higginbottom]

"This post isn't by the way about making excuses for him."

Sorry but that's exactly what it read like to me.

[Niall Quinns Discopants]

"This post isn't by the way about making excuses for him."

Sorry but that's exactly what it read like to me.

to put it the other way, any manager coming in at this stage would've faced the same difficulties. So it's not about Mancini as such. These are mostly Hughes players bought for system and tactics he planned to use. I don't think it's coincidence that we have one central attacking midfielder.

[lets all have a disco]

"This post isn't by the way about making excuses for him."

Sorry but that's exactly what it read like to me.

to put it the other way, any manager coming in at this stage would've faced the same difficulties. So it's not about Mancini as such. These are mostly Hughes players bought for system and tactics he planned to use. I don't think it's coincidence that we have one central attacking midfielder.

Hughes was looking for another attacking mid,Mancini had six weeks to find one.
He didnt.

Just a thought.