Training Differences

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Training Differences

Postby Douglas Higginbottom » Fri Feb 12, 2010 4:25 pm

The first thing to say about this thread is that it is not intended to say which is best but simply an attempt to highlight the differences. I think it would be true to say City fans wouldn’t care what training was done or whether there was any at all if it meant that we won every match.

Sorry in advance if this goes on a lot but I will break the whole thing into a number of parts to show the differences.

1) Planning/organisation.
Apart from confusing the hell out of me (and staff at the club) with starting times it does all seem a little bit less prepared now compared to what it was. I have no doubt the same amount of thinking and preparation goes on in advance but somehow the posts/nets or the cones for different exercises don’t always seem to be where they should be. It is getting a lot better recently. It’s interesting to note that anything set up on the main practice pitch seems to be done by Mancini himself. Almost as if he doesn’t yet trust anyone else to do it properly!

Also something noticeable that at the end of a session they just walk off and leave everything where it is. Cones, posts, mannequins, balls whatever, are just left around for someone else to tidy up later whenever that is. Nothing wrong with that but very different to before when at least all the balls would be collected in and accounted for.

2) Warm Ups.
Used to be religiously done at the start by physios before any real work was started. And they were watched/supervised very closely by the management team. Now they tend to be done intermittently through an overall session. To start with Ivan Carminati as the main fitness coach oversaw what they did but this has relaxed a little more as he has become confident with both the players and the other fitness staff to take a step away.

Overall though at the start they did a lot less warming up and stretching but this has gradually changed in the last 2 weeks or so.

3) Hands On
Whatever discussions take place pre sessions there is no doubt this is one of the key areas of difference. Mancini is 100% hands on. In every aspect of the football work Mancini leads the coaching. It seems like he and he alone tells them what he wants and how to do it whether defensive or attacking. Kidd or one of the others might be on the fringes of what’s going on but virtually never have I heard them adding to what he has said. That doesn’t go for the keeper coaching of course.

4) Tactical
Another apparent major area of difference. I say apparent of course as I wouldn’t agree that Hughes hadn’t a clue etc etc about tactics but I would agree that Mancini is more prepared to change tactics more during games. It does show itself in training by the way he spends more time on the pitch clearly talking to players about team shape and all sorts of things.

I have highlighted that Mancini at the start of every session does the same exercise moving the team around the field getting them used to the team shape he requires depending on where the ball is. Niedzvieki also did this at times during sessions but nowhere near as much emphasis was put on this aspect.

The surprise for me is that although Mancini does spend a lot more time on tactics during training I don’t think they have once under him ever played any sort of 11 a side training game to put it into practice to make it work and test it out against a team, to get the players to understand how it should work and of course to test it against players trying to stop them. That was something that did happen before.

5) Situations
Corners, free kicks, whether attacking or defending, never seemed to be high priority under Hughes but at least the defending of them has been picked up by Mancini. Apart from changing the tactic to a more zonal approach he does seem to work on them almost every session I have seen. Often it can be without a ball but just getting players to understand where to stand and what to do when the ball comes over.

We know it has worked so far. Less time, in fact very little, is spent on attacking them. Interestingly Mancini doesn’t get the whole team doing this work but either just the team (ish) for the next game or split it into 2 groups done separately. When Hughes did it all the team would be involved at the same time with some attacking and some defending.

6) Attacking
Probably the only difference here would be that I haven’t seen attacking work done here under Mancini (in an 11 a side sense) against a defence. Whereas Hughes would regularly have the attack against defence scenario.

Aside from that pretty well all the attacking routines I have seen them do are roughly the same. There is maybe less variety under Mancini so far but I am sure more to come.

7) Team Work
I have put this under a separate heading just to highlight the fact that Mancini does seem to split the groups up a lot more than before. Mostly they used to do all routines together rather than 8 at one time, 8 at another and the rest playing head tennis or whatever. I am sure there is method in it but I am not sure what it is.

There definitely isn’t as much fun during sessions as there used to be. Glad to hear it many might say and the only question I would raise would be about team spirit. Training sessions I would have thought have a part to play in building team spirit and on this aspect my personal opinion is that it isn’t as good as it was and this might have a little to do with it.

8) Intensity
Specific questions have been asked about this and I am sure the answer is known already based on my replies. They were a lot more intense before end of story imo. NDJ still upends somebody from time to time but overall there is a lot less effort expended during a session now. There is actually a lot less football played in a session and as I have said basically never an 11 a side game played.

9) Personal Chats
Before, during and after sessions the manager will have close discussions with individual players. Often the captain or a key player or one just back from injury. Mancini certainly does this and I have seen Kidd as well with a player but probably I would say Hughes did it more aided by Bowen and Niedzvieki.

Who knows what goes on behind closed doors but that is my observation from what I have seen.

Finally from a personal and selfish point of view I would say that watching training now is not as enjoyable as it was. Partly due to the issues of not knowing when it will happen and the fencing but also because there just seems to be less going on during a session. Mostly though it is because before I regularly got the chance for a chat with either one of the coaches or physios to get real insights in what was going on. Long gone now and never likely to return but that was a very enjoyable aspect and even though much of what I was told couldnt be posted I do think I could add to reports on here to make them of more interest.
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Re: Training Differences

Postby Beeks » Fri Feb 12, 2010 4:35 pm

Everyone knows that MH was a training fiend Doug...common knowledge

Different strokes for different folks

Doesn't in any way mean Bobby is less effective...just a completely different approach

You obviously don't like it as you are not as close to this management team as the taffia
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Re: Training Differences

Postby ronk » Fri Feb 12, 2010 4:36 pm

Thanks Doug. Lot of effort went into that post.

Interesting but not a lot can be concluded.
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Re: Training Differences

Postby MHiggi » Fri Feb 12, 2010 4:37 pm

Douglas Higginbottom wrote:5) Situations
Corners, free kicks, whether attacking or defending, never seemed to be high priority under Hughes but at least the defending of them has been picked up by Mancini.

I remember when we had that chat with Bowen in his office he actually said as much when we asked about corners. He reliably informed us that this was normal and used the example that Villa have the same approach (or lack thereof).

I can understand that to an extent when attacking corners, as some players are naturally good at finding space and others have a natural advantages that can't be coached, but I think Mancini's got the right idea with the defensive corners - you have to practice enough so that everyone knows exactly where they should be without needing to be told.
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Re: Training Differences

Postby mcfc1632 » Fri Feb 12, 2010 4:38 pm

Thanks Doug - enjoyed that - lets hope that the players respond well to the more 'relaxed' approach. I take it that this does not seem like a drift towards the casualness that was perceived under Sven - there was lot printed about Hughes having to toughen up on that

Guess it all is about whether the players seem to respond / bond / show camaraderie - is that the case?
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Re: Training Differences

Postby Im_Spartacus » Fri Feb 12, 2010 4:38 pm

Nice insight there mate........

Out of interest, now now that the taffia have gone, what couldnt you post before?
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Re: Training Differences

Postby Douglas Higginbottom » Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:06 pm

[quote="IanBishopsHaircut"]Everyone knows that MH was a training fiend Doug...common knowledge
Agree
Different strokes for different folks
Agree
Doesn't in any way mean Bobby is less effective...just a completely different approach
Agree
You obviously don't like it as you are not as close to this management team as the taffia[/quot.
As I said
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Re: Training Differences

Postby Douglas Higginbottom » Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:07 pm

ronk wrote:Thanks Doug. Lot of effort went into that post.

Interesting but not a lot can be concluded.


Just trying to answer some of the questions asked and yes you are probably right.
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Re: Training Differences

Postby BobKowalski » Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:09 pm

To be honest I never saw the point of everyone tearing into each other during training although I have no idea whether it works or not from a training or playing perspective.

The interesting thing that stood out for me was that it seems less fun for the players. Is this due to the greater emphasis on tactical situations which requires more thinking from the players to get it right etc. Not saying the players can't think I just wondered if its a bit more cerebal and a bit less physical then before hence more concentration needed and less time for the fun bits.

Funnily enough if you had asked me to guess which training sessions would be more fun I would have said Mancini's but then that is based on the Hughes football factory bit (work hard, no nonsense etc) so it shows that you should never pre judge.

I guess the only thing that this tells us is that each manager has his own ideas on what is important or not although I do think it may have been prudent to keep some of the old coaching staff to bridge the gap between the regimes but i suspect politically this was not deemed possible. Least Mancini would have someone to put the bloody cones out.
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Re: Training Differences

Postby Douglas Higginbottom » Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:10 pm

mcfc1632 wrote:Thanks Doug - enjoyed that - lets hope that the players respond well to the more 'relaxed' approach. I take it that this does not seem like a drift towards the casualness that was perceived under Sven - there was lot printed about Hughes having to toughen up on that
I don't think that will be a problem at all. One word we hear Mancini use all the time is concentration and I am sure he drills that into them constantly

Guess it all is about whether the players seem to respond / bond / show camaraderie - is that the case?


Is there a question in here?
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Re: Training Differences

Postby BobKowalski » Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:11 pm

And just to add thanks for taking the time to post this.
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Re: Training Differences

Postby Douglas Higginbottom » Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:12 pm

johnpb78 wrote:Nice insight there mate........

Out of interest, now now that the taffia have gone, what couldnt you post before?


I still don't think I can divulge yet. I think it has to remain secret for 40 years.
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Re: Training Differences

Postby carl_feedthegoat » Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:14 pm

IM NOT LIKING THE BIT ABOUT NOT TRAINING TOO MUCH ON THE ATTACKING SIDE...I KNOW MANCI HAD TO SORT OUT THE DEFENCE ECT BUT I THINK WE SHOULD BE DOING MORE THAN WE ARE DOING UPFRONT..........

I WANT TO SEE US ATTACK MORE TOMORROW.
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Re: Training Differences

Postby BobKowalski » Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:17 pm

carl_feedthegoat wrote:IM NOT LIKING THE BIT ABOUT NOT TRAINING TOO MUCH ON THE ATTACKING SIDE...I KNOW MANCI HAD TO SORT OUT THE DEFENCE ECT BUT I THINK WE SHOULD BE DOING MORE THAN WE ARE DOING UPFRONT..........

I WANT TO SEE US ATTACK MORE TOMORROW.


Maybe its on his 'To Do' list :)

Right under 'Put Out Cones'

Don't disagree though
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Re: Training Differences

Postby Douglas Higginbottom » Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:19 pm

carl_feedthegoat wrote:IM NOT LIKING THE BIT ABOUT NOT TRAINING TOO MUCH ON THE ATTACKING SIDE...I KNOW MANCI HAD TO SORT OUT THE DEFENCE ECT BUT I THINK WE SHOULD BE DOING MORE THAN WE ARE DOING UPFRONT..........

I WANT TO SEE US ATTACK MORE TOMORROW.


From what I saw today you will.
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Re: Training Differences

Postby mcfc1632 » Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:25 pm

Douglas Higginbottom wrote:
mcfc1632 wrote:Thanks Doug - enjoyed that - lets hope that the players respond well to the more 'relaxed' approach. I take it that this does not seem like a drift towards the casualness that was perceived under Sven - there was lot printed about Hughes having to toughen up on that
I don't think that will be a problem at all. One word we hear Mancini use all the time is concentration and I am sure he drills that into them constantly

Guess it all is about whether the players seem to respond / bond / show camaraderie - is that the case?


Is there a question in here?



Sorry Doug - intended to be: - do you still see good camaraderie / bonding etc between players and especially from players to Mancini - I got the feeling that a lot of bonding was achieved through training before and I am hoping that if this has changed it is only more positive
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Re: Training Differences

Postby Douglas Higginbottom » Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:25 pm

BobKowalski wrote:And just to add thanks for taking the time to post this.


Thanks Bob. To answer one of the points you made earlier I think you are right that the less fun if I am right in this is all about the greater emphasis on tactical work/thinking. They are being drilled to understand what to do where to be in all sorts of situations. Some will require more time on this than others( don't need to name names do I?)

I expect as mancini sees that the messages have got home fully and also the squad reaaly start to perform the emphasis in training may well change. We shouldnt forget Mancini has only been there a very short time and had an obvious focus at the start to stop goals going in.
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Re: Training Differences

Postby Im_Spartacus » Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:31 pm

Douglas Higginbottom wrote:
johnpb78 wrote:Nice insight there mate........

Out of interest, now now that the taffia have gone, what couldnt you post before?


I still don't think I can divulge yet. I think it has to remain secret for 40 years.

I can arrange for someone to kill you once you have told us.
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Re: Training Differences

Postby Douglas Higginbottom » Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:35 pm

mcfc1632 wrote:
Douglas Higginbottom wrote:
mcfc1632 wrote:Thanks Doug - enjoyed that - lets hope that the players respond well to the more 'relaxed' approach. I take it that this does not seem like a drift towards the casualness that was perceived under Sven - there was lot printed about Hughes having to toughen up on that
I don't think that will be a problem at all. One word we hear Mancini use all the time is concentration and I am sure he drills that into them constantly

Guess it all is about whether the players seem to respond / bond / show camaraderie - is that the case?


Is there a question in here?



Sorry Doug - intended to be: - do you still see good camaraderie / bonding etc between players and especially from players to Mancini - I got the feeling that a lot of bonding was achieved through training before and I am hoping that if this has changed it is only more positive


I can't say I have seen anything negative at all about the cameraderie/bonding within the team and efinitely nothing negative towards Mancini. But as you say training routines can help get players closer together and I have seen plenty where as well as achieving the fitness , warm up aims they also have a good laugh doing it. 3 players who always seemed to have a laugh in training were Robinho, Micah and SWP. One has gone and the other 2 have missed training quite a bit through injuries so that might have some thing to do with it. But it is also true that the sort of exercises that lend themsleves to having a laugh have rarely been used of late. The focus as has been said has been on different stuff.

Having said that I did see Wayne Bridge trotting out behind one of the Italain coaches today and tripping him up like a schoolboy in the playground
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Re: Training Differences

Postby BobKowalski » Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:45 pm

Douglas Higginbottom wrote:
BobKowalski wrote:And just to add thanks for taking the time to post this.


Thanks Bob. To answer one of the points you made earlier I think you are right that the less fun if I am right in this is all about the greater emphasis on tactical work/thinking. They are being drilled to understand what to do where to be in all sorts of situations. Some will require more time on this than others( don't need to name names do I?)


Not really no :)

Going back to the tactical work/thinking part I kind of think that this has eroded the free flowing going forward bit. I anticipate that this is a short term effect and once the players are fully grounded in what Mancini wants from them and can do it automatically the rest of their play can kick in. It makes sense though as we had to plug the gaping holes at the back.
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