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Interesting new twitch to the 4th spot published in The Guardian:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010 ... ons-league

What are your views if this where to be implemented?

Premier League plans play-off for last Champions League place

• Team as low as seventh could be given chance to qualify
• Manchester United, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool object



Under the play-off proposal Fulham – who finished seventh in 2009 – would have had a chance of Champions League football. Photograph: Kieran Doherty/Reuters

The Premier League is considering introducing a play-off system to determine the fourth club to qualify for the following season's European Champions League.

Currently the club which finishes fourth goes through but the new proposal would mean a play-off between the clubs finishing fourth, fifth, sixth and seventh. The intention is to inject more competition into a league in which qualification has for years remained in the hands of the same four clubs.

Premier League sources have confirmed that the play-off proposal was presented at the most recent meeting of all clubs, on 4 February, and the league's chief executive, Richard Scudamore, was authorised to return with further details in April.

It is understood that the idea was enthusiastically supported by all clubs – except the so-called big four of Chelsea, Manchester United, Arsenal and Liverpool. Scudamore, and the league's secretary, Mike Foster, will examine the practicalities of how a play-off system could work: whether it should take the form of a home-and-away knockout system, similar to that in the Football League, or incorporate seeding. They will also look into when matches could be fitted into a crowded fixture calendar before making recommendations.

The idea was presented as part of the Premier League's strategic review of its format and operations and springs from two particular motivations. The first is to crack the problem of England's top league becoming less open and competitive, with the richest clubs, Manchester United, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool, having strengthened their hold on the top four places over several years. One league source said it was an odd twist that the idea has been raised now, in a season when Liverpool's claim to the fourth place is being seriously challenged.

The response among clubs outside the top four is understood to have been positive, with some believing that a play-off system would create more competitive matches and give more clubs a prize to challenge for. Most clubs now feel they have no chance of attaining fourth place but almost the whole Premier League could be brought into a competition to finish seventh and make it to the play-offs. The medium-sized clubs, which increasingly aspire to break the cartel, are said to have been enthusiastic, seeing play-offs as a great opportunity.

The big four, who have been qualifying on merit at the end of each season and reaping the footballing and financial rewards of Champions League participation are understood to have been less keen. Self-interest is clearly a factor, with those clubs concerned about protecting their own advantages. However, there is also a feeling that the league should be more sophisticated about addressing its major challenges, particularly the financial ones, rather than incorpor-ating an awkward play-off system for a prize as ostensibly moderate as fourth place.

The other motivation for the play-offs is a waning of the proposal for an international round of matches, dubbed "Game 39", which was widely criticised for lacking coherence and being territorially expansionist. The play-offs would mean extra matches, which would be sold to pay-television and so generate more money for all clubs.

The consistent qualification of the same four clubs, widely seen as stifling competition, is not replicated across Europe. The Premier League largely blames the Uefa Champions League money, distributed to participating clubs, for entrenching the big four's financial power. Uefa, however, points out that Champions League income represents a small part, 8–13%, of Manchester United's, Chelsea's, Arsenal's and Liverpool's total turnover. Most of the big clubs' money is made in this country; Premier League television income is relatively evenly distributed but United, Chelsea and Arsenal in particular make much more than their nearest rivals from commercial activities and match-day revenues in the Premier League.

The Dutch league tried a play-off system for the second Champions League qualification place but abandoned it after the 2007-08 season, when FC Twente Enschede beat Ajax 2-1. The issues in Holland were the risk of crowd trouble at such high-stakes matches and a perception that the play-offs were one-sided.

In the Premier League there is some confidence that neither of those would present major problems. As a means of encouraging competition, opportunities and increasing income, the play-off proposal already seems to have enough support to suggest it could gain the necessary 14-6 majority to be implemented.

This imo will never happen as it gives even more credence to an elite finnish third your ok but finnish fourth and you have to mix it with the peasants.

I quite like the idea, but is bloody typical that when we are looking at becoming a team to cement a top 4 place for forthcoming seasons.


It would certainly spice things up, I would love to see Scum get knocked out after finishing 4th to Stoke who then slide in to the Champs League.

Out of all the teams we can afford to have this implemented as we are not restricted financially like Liverpool & Scum. It's an interesting idea. I would be pissed if we finished 4th and then fucking went and lost to Stoke or someone though, but still I guess that would be the whole entertainment value of it. Would be a good money spinner as well, and would add some worth to the end of the season.

Looks like we need to start aiming to cement a place in the top 3 then!

Now someone in the big office is thinking with their head. Great idea!!!
Would give the lower six teams something to shoot for.

ABSOLUTE SHIT AND BOLLOX.
The whole idea of the League system is to find the BEST clubs over a full season. The best clubs finish in the highest positions and deserve the benefits for doing so.
I also think that there is too much of a coincidence that this idea is being floated at a time when the top four are under threat for the 1st time since the top 4 places allowed CL entry.
This season. L'Pool look like they could fail...so the league give them another bite at the cherry?...Fuck off Scousers, if yer out, yer out.
Play off games would give those qualifying for them extra revenue...benefitting the top clubs at the expense of those from 8th downwards.
JUST ANOTHER PLOY TO ENSURE THE BIG BOYS INCREASE THEIR INCOME AND GET ANOTHER CHANCE SHOULD THEY FALL SHORT.

makes ZERO sense just to playoff for 4th...might as well have an American-style playoff to determine the winner of the whole schbang then. Seed the top 8 clubs and go from there.

The analogy in the US is probably baseball...who have a fuclin horribly long season, and often can get a team who crushes the competition through the season to choke in the playoffs and lose out.

A playoff -- for either 4th or any other reason really -- would really undermine some of the purity of the game for me. Coming from a culture of playoffs in sports, i can tell you that you should defo not entertain this idea by any stretch of the imagination.

cheers

That was my first thought, safety net for Liverpool's shitty season.

I am still disillusioned with the fact the 4th place team can enter the CHAMPION'S LEAGUE. Now we'll have a 7th placed side as champions of europe? It's a fucking circus.

I am familiar with play off systems in Rugby League and ice hockey and i think they are nonsense.
Playing a full season...finishing top...all meaningless and the honours go to the team that wins three games after the season has ended.
Money making racket that only serves to increase the revenue of the top group of clubs.

john68 wrote:ABSOLUTE SHIT AND BOLLOX.
The whole idea of the League system is to find the BEST clubs over a full season. The best clubs finish in the highest positions and deserve the benefits for doing so.
I also think that there is too much of a coincidence that this idea is being floated at a time when the top four are under threat for the 1st time since the top 4 places allowed CL entry.
This season. L'Pool look like they could fail...so the league give them another bite at the cherry?...Fuck off Scousers, if yer out, yer out.
Play off games would give those qualifying for them extra revenue...benefitting the top clubs at the expense of those from 8th downwards.
JUST ANOTHER PLOY TO ENSURE THE BIG BOYS INCREASE THEIR INCOME AND GET ANOTHER CHANCE SHOULD THEY FALL SHORT.

thanks for saving me the trouble John.

What a horseshit of an idea.

john68 wrote:ABSOLUTE SHIT AND BOLLOX.
The whole idea of the League system is to find the BEST clubs over a full season. The best clubs finish in the highest positions and deserve the benefits for doing so.
I also think that there is too much of a coincidence that this idea is being floated at a time when the top four are under threat for the 1st time since the top 4 places allowed CL entry.
This season. L'Pool look like they could fail...so the league give them another bite at the cherry?...Fuck off Scousers, if yer out, yer out.
Play off games would give those qualifying for them extra revenue...benefitting the top clubs at the expense of those from 8th downwards.
JUST ANOTHER PLOY TO ENSURE THE BIG BOYS INCREASE THEIR INCOME AND GET ANOTHER CHANCE SHOULD THEY FALL SHORT.

Agree entirely. It''s just a way to try and maintain the status quo and keep Liverpool and Arsenal for now (later on when the debt kicks in for United), in with a chance of keeping their riches.

It makes absolutely no sense and further dilutes an already very diluted tournament for the sake of extracting money out of punters pockets.

It won't last long even if it happens. We have 4 champions league places because we (english teams) do well every year in teh CL. After a few years of teams like Bolton or Everton being knocked out at the qualifying stage (which is what 4th is) we won't have teh 4th place for english teams anyway.

Slim wrote:That was my first thought, safety net for Liverpool's shitty season.

I am still disillusioned with the fact the 4th place team can enter the CHAMPION'S LEAGUE. Now we'll have a 7th placed side as champions of europe? It's a fucking circus.

my sentiments exactly

a ridiculous idea to be frank - I also agree it seems a little convenient to me to protect the likes of liverpool and arsenal

What a load of old shit. Surely they couldn't bring this in this season, a change to the rules once a season has started would be a legal minefield. It also would potray to kids that rules can be changed and bent to suit the needs of teams who havent done enough all season.

Personally I would hope we finish top 2 in the future, making all this irrelevant. But then I would rather see only Champions in the CL, the return of the cup-winners cup, and as many play-offs as they like for the WAFFA!

What a crock of shit! No way should a team who finishes lower down the league get the reward that the 4th placed team has played 38 games to achieve.
I'm still against play-offs for the Football Leagues. The only way they should be in place is for 3rd bottom of the higher league to play 3rd top of the lower league. As it stands you can have a team who finish 1 point off automatic promotion not going up because the 7th placed team some 20 points behind get a dodgy decision in a one off play off game.

I believe only the champions should play in the 'champions league'. Always have and always will. There was something extra special about watching a two legging match where anyone could beat anyone. It'll never happen though.

I'm a full supporter of giving the fourth champions league spot to the FA Cup winners to stop that competition going the same way as the League Cup. At least they'd actually be champions.

MaineRoadMemories wrote:I'm a full supporter of giving the fourth champions league spot to the FA Cup winners to stop that competition going the same way as the League Cup. At least they'd actually be champions.

Interesting idea, so why not make it the top two of the league, the winners of the FA Cup and the winners of the Carling Cup go into CL, the runners up for the two cups go to the Europa League. At least three teams out of four which go into CL would be champions of something.

If this were to go ahead, what happens to the team that makes it? Someone like Fulham et al may feel the need to spend larger sums of money in an attempt to make it into the lucrative group stages, then if they get knocked out it would leave them with a serious financial hangover.

Personally, I don't agree that the Top 4 go into the Champions League as they are not really champions are they. And I know the format is such that they need all the other teams but UEFA should be done under the Trade Descriptions Act and renamed as the 'The Champions and Also Rans' league.

It is a little strange though that these proposals are coming out now, isn't it?

We saw from the 2 legged semi v rags, how difficult it is to play one of the 'big 4' teams over 2 legs because they're so used to playing those games in the Chump's Lg & coming out on top whereas we're not. Those teams may lose to Hull etc in one PL game but they'll beat just about anyone in the league 90% of the time in a 2 legged Euro type game, as the inventors of this idea know.

When would these games be played for instance this year with the World Cup coming? What if one of the teams finishes 7th behind by 20 clear points & is in the Chump's lg final? Then they play 2 playoffs , lose both, then win the Chump's lg & are re-instated to 4th place because the Chump's lg winners now automatically qualify!! ? So they get 2 goes at pinching 4th place off a team that finished 20 points above them!