Santa Cruz

[Im_Spartacus]

I apologise, you're clearly sitting on the fence.

Ok, quote the bits you need to "prove" your point and pretend the rest of what I said doesnt exist.

[Ted Hughes]

I apologise, you're clearly sitting on the fence.

Ok, quote the bits you need to "prove" your point and pretend the rest of what I said doesnt exist.

It doesn't matter how you qualify it by criticising other areas (ie the manger's tactics are shit as well, he needs wingers etc) as the basic premise is that you think he's shit & always will be. That's what I replied to. You've made up your mind.

[Im_Spartacus]

Myself and Ted haven't jumped on anything you've said. Your initial argument is that Roque's a poor player, which we fairly disputed .You then tried to change your argument to him receiing poor service last night, which we don't dispute. You then returned to your argument that he's shit on the basis of his goalscoring record. We suggested that this is more down to a succession of injuries as opposed to a lack of form or ability. Where's the problem?

How could I change my argument, its all there in that first post. Any further comment was only based on your responses.

Anyway, probably best that we just agree to disagree eh?

[Mark (Blue Army)]

I like Roque, he makes the wrong decision sometimes but over all i think he's a good player and giving the chance he will score goals for us.

[the_georgian_genius]

Santa Cruz was great last night. He must of made 3 mistakes/bad passes and each one was greeted with groans and "waste of money" talk.

Fuck all said when he held it up well and played the target man role Adebayor should be playing, the scapegoat to end all scapegoats. He didn't ask to be bought for £17m.

[Blue2]

Can I refer people to this thread: viewtopic.php?f=119&t=28341&p=50259&hilit=+santa+cruz+boo+boy#p50259

Santa Cruz in my opinion is fucking shit, always has been and always will be. I vehemently opposed us licking his balls for 12 months before paying a ridiculous price for him. What irked me even more though, and my reason for starting that thread in November was that Hughes played him with Bentley and Pederson at Blackburn, yet when he got fit here played him on his own, up front without wingers who could cross.

Last night we played with 2 wingers after we had been twatted for an hour, both of whom were totally ineffective anyway and lost the ball on nearly every occasion they had it, and he had a strike partner who is genuinely the laziest and most workshy player I have ever seen in a City shirt.

He most probably eclipses Lee Bradbury for transfer fee to talent ratio, but as shit as he is, he is here now,he is better than Benjani, and until the fuckwits managing the club play to his strengths, he might as well not be on the pitch - that is NOT his fault, he can only do his best at the job he is asked to do.

I don't know how much German football you watch so I won't go there. But you honestly thought Santa Cruz was shit when he banged in 20+ goals in his debut Premier League season for Blackburn, including two at Eastlands? Give over.

By the same token, did Benjani being the top premier league scorer when we signed him mean that he was a quality player?

A good player is one who does what he does on a consistent basis. Benjani and RSC are neither, other than consistently fair to middling, and both have shocking goal scoring records through their career - its not an accident when you look over their careers, but the actual anomaly was the small purple patch when taken in context with their long career of mediocrity.

I would put RSC's purple patch a couple of years back down to Hughes playing Bentley and Pederson, two very good, effective and direct type wingers who can also play a nice through ball. However we bought him and have refused to supply him whenever he has played, which for me was particularly galling in Hughes case.

We are still not, so he will suffer in games like last night - which once you recognise he is a limited player, you simply have to accept his performances, thus shift the blame to the manager not the player.

Santa Cruz's goals-to-game ratio is good. He's injury prone, but this wasn't your point. You were accusing him of having a lack of talent when he's got bags of it.

For ONE season it was, over his career its crap. In top c;lass football since 1999 its 259 games - 67 goals.

[sandman]

Santa Cruz has not even shown a glimpse of being good enough for our bench since long before he signed.

[Sister of fu]

Can someone tell me how many games Santa cruz has played for us?
Can someone tell me how much consecutive game time Santa cruz has played for us?
Can someone tell me how many minutes Santa cruz has played for us?

Answer the above questions and then tell me.
When do City fans give abuse to players that have done nothing wrong?
When do City fans give abuse to players without giving them a chance to prove they can actually be VERY GOOD for the club?

ANSWER!!!!
Since Mark Hughes!
Some posters decided that Santa Cruz is the boo boy because we paid a ridiculous amount of money for him and because he has continued getting injured, then he must pay! What a crock of shit. he didnt ask for this, it is not RSC's fault FFS.

However, now fit, why not give him 100% backing? WHY NOT? I actually think, if he stays fit, he can be a big player for us. Why any city fan would give him grief at this stage is beyond me.

Don't read the match threads then WW there is a distinct lack of support for a large number of our players. I get constuctive criticism of players when they don't play well but some of the drivel on here is far to over the top. No excuse for calling our own cunts and other such names!!

[Alioune DVToure]

Can I refer people to this thread: viewtopic.php?f=119&t=28341&p=50259&hilit=+santa+cruz+boo+boy#p50259

Santa Cruz in my opinion is fucking shit, always has been and always will be. I vehemently opposed us licking his balls for 12 months before paying a ridiculous price for him. What irked me even more though, and my reason for starting that thread in November was that Hughes played him with Bentley and Pederson at Blackburn, yet when he got fit here played him on his own, up front without wingers who could cross.

Last night we played with 2 wingers after we had been twatted for an hour, both of whom were totally ineffective anyway and lost the ball on nearly every occasion they had it, and he had a strike partner who is genuinely the laziest and most workshy player I have ever seen in a City shirt.

He most probably eclipses Lee Bradbury for transfer fee to talent ratio, but as shit as he is, he is here now,he is better than Benjani, and until the fuckwits managing the club play to his strengths, he might as well not be on the pitch - that is NOT his fault, he can only do his best at the job he is asked to do.

I don't know how much German football you watch so I won't go there. But you honestly thought Santa Cruz was shit when he banged in 20+ goals in his debut Premier League season for Blackburn, including two at Eastlands? Give over.

By the same token, did Benjani being the top premier league scorer when we signed him mean that he was a quality player?

A good player is one who does what he does on a consistent basis. Benjani and RSC are neither, other than consistently fair to middling, and both have shocking goal scoring records through their career - its not an accident when you look over their careers, but the actual anomaly was the small purple patch when taken in context with their long career of mediocrity.

I would put RSC's purple patch a couple of years back down to Hughes playing Bentley and Pederson, two very good, effective and direct type wingers who can also play a nice through ball. However we bought him and have refused to supply him whenever he has played, which for me was particularly galling in Hughes case.

We are still not, so he will suffer in games like last night - which once you recognise he is a limited player, you simply have to accept his performances, thus shift the blame to the manager not the player.

Santa Cruz's goals-to-game ratio is good. He's injury prone, but this wasn't your point. You were accusing him of having a lack of talent when he's got bags of it.

For ONE season it was, over his career its crap. In top c;lass football since 1999 its 259 games - 67 goals.

No doubt you've looked at Wikipedia and done some adding up, but a huge chunk of those appearences at Bayern were FROM THE BENCH. Looking at his City stats now - it has him down as scoring 2 in 17 appearances. Those include his one minute at Everton and all his brief cameos from the bench. It doesn't include his goal in the cup. I'm also sure that he hasn't featured as many as 17 times in the league this season, so don't base your opinion on far from reliable Wiki "stats".

[carl_feedthegoat]

Can someone tell me how many games Santa cruz has played for us?
Can someone tell me how much consecutive game time Santa cruz has played for us?
Can someone tell me how many minutes Santa cruz has played for us?

Answer the above questions and then tell me.
When do City fans give abuse to players that have done nothing wrong?
When do City fans give abuse to players without giving them a chance to prove they can actually be VERY GOOD for the club?

ANSWER!!!!
Since Mark Hughes!
Some posters decided that Santa Cruz is the boo boy because we paid a ridiculous amount of money for him and because he has continued getting injured, then he must pay! What a crock of shit. he didnt ask for this, it is not RSC's fault FFS.

However, now fit, why not give him 100% backing? WHY NOT? I actually think, if he stays fit, he can be a big player for us. Why any city fan would give him grief at this stage is beyond me.

Don't read the match threads then WW there is a distinct lack of support for a large number of our players. I get constuctive criticism of players when they don't play well but some of the drivel on here is far to over the top. No excuse for calling our own cunts and other such names!!

THE MATCH THREAD IS AN EXCEPTION TO THE RULE MATE.....PASSIONS RUN HIGH AND THINGS GET SAID IN THE HEAT OF THE MOMENT OR WHEN YOU GO TO MATCHES DO YOU SAY THINGS ALONG THE LINES OF "SHOCKING TERRIBLE PASS BY OUR PLAYER THAT IS NAMED TOURE..I FELT HE SHOULD HAVE EXCERCISED MORE CAUTION WHEN DEFENDING THAT SET PIECE" OR WOULD YOU REALISTICALLY COME OUT WITH "YOU FUCKING USELESS CUNT, WHY DIDNT YOU FUCKING JUMP HIGHER"

HAVING SAID THAT MOST OF THE PLAYERS YESTERDAY WERE CUNTS AS THEY JUST DID NOT PERFORM.....AND I PREFER TO CALL A SPADE A SPADE.

BUT THATS JUST ME.

[Im_Spartacus]

Seems about the best I can find for stats on him, going back to 2001 - however does break down the games he started and the ones he was substitute

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/players/st ... 63&cc=5739

I have it something like this from the table above:

Games Started - 119
Games off Bench - 73
Goals - 55

Make of that what you will (stats on our games are a bit out of date I think)

Suppose the only time we will ever get a definitve answer as to what his scoring rate is, is minutes played rather than just appearances, and I really can't be arsed with that!!!

[zuricity]

Santa Cruz has not even shown a glimpse of being good enough for our bench since long before he signed.

In amongst all the huff and puff on this thread about RSC. I read this one

I agree with you too.

The only thing that interests me about any City player is how they play for City. Last night RSC did sweet FA. The one time he received a good pass from Ade he failed to control it and fluffed his shot, then turned to Ade and moaned about the pass not being good enough ( not sure there but he moaned to Ade about something).

On what i've seen so far, he can keep the bench warm for me too.

[Original Dub]

Seems about the best I can find for stats on him, going back to 2001 - however does break down the games he started and the ones he was substitute

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/players/st ... 63&cc=5739

I have it something like this from the table above:

Games Started - 119
Games off Bench - 73
Goals - 55

Make of that what you will (stats on our games are a bit out of date I think)

Suppose the only time we will ever get a definitve answer as to what his scoring rate is, is minutes played rather than just appearances, and I really can't be arsed with that!!!

So when he starts he has pretty much a 1 in 2 ratio.

And you think he's shit?

I personally think he's not much of an impact player from the bench ;)

[King Kev]

Failing that ask KK for a job as a mod so you can apply your censorship of opinions you dont agree with.

Please give an example of when somebody's opinion was ever censored on this site.

Thanks

[Im_Spartacus]

Failing that ask KK for a job as a mod so you can apply your censorship of opinions you dont agree with.

Please give an example of when somebody's opinion was ever censored on this site.

Thanks

Shit, I can't stay out of trouble today!!!

Not saying that censoring is done, my train of thought on Ted's reply by only quoting the negative aspects of the post was that maybe he would like to read the bits he wanted and remove the rest. As a mod, in theory he could abuse that

Sorted now though, I know he was only intentionally misunderstanding me, only joking TH ;)

[Im_Spartacus]

Seems about the best I can find for stats on him, going back to 2001 - however does break down the games he started and the ones he was substitute

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/players/st ... 63&cc=5739

I have it something like this from the table above:

Games Started - 119
Games off Bench - 73
Goals - 55

Make of that what you will (stats on our games are a bit out of date I think)

Suppose the only time we will ever get a definitve answer as to what his scoring rate is, is minutes played rather than just appearances, and I really can't be arsed with that!!!

So when he starts he has pretty much a 1 in 2 ratio.

And you think he's shit?

I personally think he's not much of an impact player from the bench ;)

See now I think he is amazing off the bench, the best....

[Bianchi on Ice]

I'm sorry but it's a tough job as a lone front man............ Oh shit, did Ade play today? I missed him amongst Santa Cruz winning everything in the air, dropping deep and doing both there work himself.

Personally I thought they both had a hard job particularly 1st half against Stoke's whole team with our midfield 30 yards away for no apparent reason seeing as Stokes whole team was marking them.

I'm certainly glad you and wonderwall are about on here amongst some others because half the time I wonder if I really am watching the same game as the rest of this board/our fans.

PBL, I wouldn't really have that much of a go at Ade either. Painful I know, but try and watch a little bit of his last few games. Generally he seems lazy, but look closely at his movement and the amount of times he drops deeper or wider than he should be. He's a bit languid in his approach, but he's always looking to get the ball and create something because those behind him (30 yards behind as Ted rightly points out) are doing absolutely fuck all to help the front men. Ade generally makes a complete fuck up of anything he's trying in these circumstances, but the point is he's trying to get the ball and do something because nobody else behind him is able to.

There's a big problem in getting the midfield gelling going forward. With Hughes, we didn't really have that champions feel of constant pressure and pushing forward with the midfield, but you knew that if a break was on, by fuck would we move forward as a unit and try and make something of the opportunity. Some of our counter attacking football was breathtaking, the kind of football blues live and breathe for. Although we seem more cohesive at the back with Mancini, we seem to have lost that ability to turn defence into blistering attack. Somewhere in the manager transition, we've become quite toothless in attack. Even with Bellamy and Tevez, we aren't the same.

Maybe I'm being harsh on Mancini. Maybe if Mariga came in, everything would be totally different. After seeing him in the Milan derby, it looked like we did miss out on a bloody good player. If he came, maybe we'd be all a bit happier. But he didn't come, and we didn't lose anybody. We did gain 2 personel though, yet somehow we seem to have gone backwards. This is something I really want to see focused on and addressed because it doesn't matter what level of football you're at, when you're in a situation where you're only adding and you're gaining players back from injury, there is absolutely no logical reason for things to start deteriorating from the levels we had previously under a supposedly inept manager.

Terrific post.