Just too much at stake, says Barry

[Rag_hater]

I think that piece by Gareth Barry is very interesting and extremely revealing, regarding the mindset that seems to permeate the club.

[center]".....neither team wanted to lose....."
".....too much to lose if the other team got three points....."
".....nobody on the pitch wanted to lose the game...."[/center]

Our club seems to be dominated by FEAR. Like an athlete saying..."I didn't want to run too fast in case i slipped"...or the mountain climber not daring to climb too high in case he falls. That piece by Gareth Barry is a very dissapointing window into the mindset at our club.
Trophies are taken home by those who dare to risk failure by trying to win. Trophies are taken home by those who are not encumbered by barriers in their own minds that they might fail. Trophies are taken home by WINNERS...Those who believe to the point of knowing, that they can succeed.

Those quotes By Barry say to me that the attitude at City is;
".....we must stop our opponents from winning, even if it means not winning ourselves....."

I am disgusted by that level of negativity and fear and if that is what is being taught to them...we have got major problems.

I think the way CFFR is looking at it is the way I see it as well.For most of us and the players we are in uncharted territory by being in 4th place and having it in our own hands and therefore the importance of not losing is paramount.
By not losing no damage has been done, maybe an advantage that could have been gained has been missed out on but we have to think that may come again.
For me the fact that we still have the upper hand is worth any sacrifice that was made by us being more concerned with not losing than taking any advantage we had through being at home.
We had the advantage before we went into the game and still do.

[john68]

RH
I have already explained to CFFR that it doesn't work in the wider picture.
Yes, I agree we limited Liverpool to the same number of points as us and kept our advantage over then but we also lost 2pts each to Villa and Spurs...
In the fuller picture of the League, we also lost 2pts on the likes of Evertyon and any other team who won over weekend.
We dropped points to both Chelsea and Arsenal in the race for a place abive us.

It simply does not work in our favour.

[john@staustell]

RH
I have already explained to CFFR that it doesn't work in the wider picture.
Yes, I agree we limited Liverpool to the same number of points as us and kept our advantage over then but we also lost 2pts each to Villa and Spurs...In the fuller picture of the League, we also lost 2pts on the likes of Evertyon and any other team who won over weekend.
We dropped points to both Chelsea and Arsenal in the race for a place abive us.

It simply does not work in our favour.

We did but in this case any more expansive tactics from Mancini and Scouse would've picked us off easily, much like they did with Scum at OT last season. They were back to near their best defensively, and we might have broken through and been on top if Tevez had been available, or if Ireland had any idea what to do in the final third and turned toward their goal, or if SWP had turned up etc.

I know 'if if if', but in the wider picture it denied Liverpool the (media expected) chance to go above us and, with Chelski out of the way after next week, then is the time to drive on and chalk up some wins. I believe 4th is still ours for the taking, and if we do it by one or two points, you can look back to this match.

[Ted Hughes]

No way did we do anything but drop points on Sunday. It was a much better result for Liverpool as they have an easier run in & unless they fuck up (which is very possible of course as they're morbidly unimaginitive) they should now get 4th barring one of the other teams pulling off some brilliant/unlikely results.

I don't blame Mancini for it though, I just think our players weren't good enough to break them down.

I do think people missed a point with Hughes re this 'mentality' thing though & re tactics. He was trying to build a mentality of always forcing your game on the oppo & being fearless ala rags which means more vulnerability & lack of confidence at the back if it goes wrong. The current one is to nullify the strengths of the opposition & then force your game on them & beat them ala Italy which means lack of attacking strength & confidence if it goes wrong. Neither are clueless or naive, just different. I prefer the former personally & think it's better for the club to go that way.

[john@staustell]

No way did we do anything but drop points on Sunday. It was a much better result for Liverpool as they have an easier run in & unless they fuck up (which is very possible of course as they're morbidly unimaginitive) they should now get 4th barring one of the other teams pulling off some brilliant/unlikely results.

I don't blame Mancini for it though, I just think our players weren't good enough to break them down.

I do think people missed a point with Hughes re this 'mentality' thing though & re tactics. He was trying to build a mentality of always forcing your game on the oppo & being fearless ala rags which means more vulnerability & lack of confidence at the back if it goes wrong. The current one is to nullify the strengths of the opposition & then force your game on them & beat them ala Italy which means lack of attacking strength & confidence if it goes wrong. Neither are clueless or naive, just different. I prefer the former personally & think it's better for the club to go that way.

Agreed on that. Liverpool come unstuck when they play lesser teams and have to chase the game to score and win. Hopefully this will continue to be the case.

[Rag_hater]

RH
I have already explained to CFFR that it doesn't work in the wider picture.
Yes, I agree we limited Liverpool to the same number of points as us and kept our advantage over then but we also lost 2pts each to Villa and Spurs...
In the fuller picture of the League, we also lost 2pts on the likes of Evertyon and any other team who won over weekend.
We dropped points to both Chelsea and Arsenal in the race for a place abive us.

It simply does not work in our favour.

We still have to play Villa and Spuds at our house so I think the advantage is still with us.The 2pts they sides that won have gained on us is not a mountain that is unsurmountable.If it had been 3pts it would be a bit more difficult but again not impossible.And the fact that we were able to limit what advantage Villa and Spuds were able to make of it strikes me as a positive.
Its a game less for everybody and we are basically in the same situation.Our destiny is in our own hands.

[john68]

I despair RH. That is so fuclin defeatist. It is like saying we are just not good enough to win so we won't let them.
I can see the sense of that strategy for Pompey when going to Stamford Bridge but when we are playing on our own pitch against a team below us, it is inexcusable.
...and when we play Villa and Spurs at CoMS do we use the same defeatist mentality and hope to limit them to only gaining a point too?
and risk that L'Pool or other teams around us don't pick up any points.
I see what you are saying but if that is the basis that City expect tyo move forward...God Fuclin Help Us....cos we don't seem to be prepared to help ourfuclinselves.
As i said...I DESPAIR.

[BobKowalski]

I do think people missed a point with Hughes re this 'mentality' thing though & re tactics. He was trying to build a mentality of always forcing your game on the oppo & being fearless ala rags which means more vulnerability & lack of confidence at the back if it goes wrong. The current one is to nullify the strengths of the opposition & then force your game on them & beat them ala Italy which means lack of attacking strength & confidence if it goes wrong. Neither are clueless or naive, just different. I prefer the former personally & think it's better for the club to go that way.

A fair assessment. Mentality is the key to these situations which is why Liverpool have an edge because they are more used to these situations and quite self evidently we are not. However I do take positives from the game and others like it this season in that we are consistently matching the top teams and seem to be toughening up under Mancini - or being negative and dour for those who prefer to see it that way :)

As the season is now getting to the business end when every game really does matter I am hoping that the discipline and organisation that Mancini is trying to hammer into the team holds fast and sees us through. We are getting a beating from the outside with the negative press and playing (apparently) the most boring Premiership game ever yesterday (which will have no doubt amused a lot of Bolton and Blackburn fans) however I am heartened that for a club in chaos, the hunt for Carlos and the fans and players in revolt that ADUG in their first full season in charge have got us to 5th in February as genuine top 4 contenders which is not bad going and bodes well for the future.

[john@staustell]

I do think people missed a point with Hughes re this 'mentality' thing though & re tactics. He was trying to build a mentality of always forcing your game on the oppo & being fearless ala rags which means more vulnerability & lack of confidence at the back if it goes wrong. The current one is to nullify the strengths of the opposition & then force your game on them & beat them ala Italy which means lack of attacking strength & confidence if it goes wrong. Neither are clueless or naive, just different. I prefer the former personally & think it's better for the club to go that way.

A fair assessment. Mentality is the key to these situations which is why Liverpool have an edge because they are more used to these situations and quite self evidently we are not. However I do take positives from the game and others like it this season in that we are consistently matching the top teams and seem to be toughening up under Mancini - or being negative and dour for those who prefer to see it that way :)

As the season is now getting to the business end when every game really does matter I am hoping that the discipline and organisation that Mancini is trying to hammer into the team holds fast and sees us through. We are getting a beating from the outside with the negative press and playing (apparently) the most boring Premiership game ever yesterday (which will have no doubt amused a lot of Bolton and Blackburn fans) however I am heartened that for a club in chaos, the hunt for Carlos and the fans and players in revolt that ADUG in their first full season in charge have got us to 5th in February as genuine top 4 contenders which is not bad going and bodes well for the future.

Agreed Bob. I actually found the game quite interesting from the City angle, like a high-speed game of chess, but I was pissed.

[CityFanFromRome]

Look at it this way mate.
Before the game yesterday, there were 3 other teams around us chasing the position we held.
After the game we had got 1pt
L'Pool had got 1pt
Villa had got 3pts
Spurs had got 3pts

How did our stopping liverpool from beating us do us any favours when both Villa and Spurs won and each gained 2pts on us?
Merely stopping the other team from winning is a losing mentality. It shows a lack of belief in your own abilities to win and gain maximum points.

Look at it the other way though, had we attacked and lost, Liverpool would have gone over us, we would be level with Villa and behind Spurs, even if with a game in hand over Pool and Spurs. Besides, we have to play both Spurs and Villa at home, and they won't be as defensively tight (and kicking us) as Liverpool were.

I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, I'm just saying I can see the reasoning behind a more cautious approach in games like yesterday's. Had it been against a lesser team, I'd be agreeing with you though.

[Douglas Higginbottom]

"A fair assessment. Mentality is the key to these situations which is why Liverpool have an edge because they are more used to these situations and quite self evidently we are not. However I do take positives from the game and others like it this season in that we are consistently matching the top teams and seem to be toughening up under Mancini - or being negative and dour for those who prefer to see it that way :)"

Interesting and fair enough I guess. Lpool are more used to such situations and games and yes we are matching the top teams quite well this season but the toughening up as you call it seems to be coming at a price.

The key games where we have matched and beaten top teams came before Mancini ( Arse x2, Chelski,Pool away in particular ) and now the fear is growing that to "match " them we have to almost give up attacking (and maybe winning) to hold onto what we have got? The next 2 games will tell us a lot.

[BobKowalski]

A fair assessment. Mentality is the key to these situations which is why Liverpool have an edge because they are more used to these situations and quite self evidently we are not. However I do take positives from the game and others like it this season in that we are consistently matching the top teams and seem to be toughening up under Mancini - or being negative and dour for those who prefer to see it that way :)

Interesting and fair enough I guess. Lpool are more used to such situations and games and yes we are matching the top teams quite well this season but the toughening up as you call it seems to be coming at a price.

The key games where we have matched and beaten top teams came before Mancini ( Arse x2, Chelski,Pool away in particular ) and now the fear is growing that to "match " them we have to almost give up attacking (and maybe winning) to hold onto what we have got? The next 2 games will tell us a lot.

Yes the toughening up is coming at a price but then the problem, which was shipping goals for fun, was not doing us any favours either so something had to be done and no it ain't pretty. In a sense Rafa has done the same with Liverpool whose season was disintegrating and through sheer bloody mindedness he has dragged them back to basics and got it half back on track by making them bloody hard to beat and no it ain't pretty either.

We could have continued with the attack at all costs mantra leaving us exposed and relying on Given to keep them at bay as the defence got pulled to pieces and we would have 'entertainment' with 4-3 victories, 3-3 draws and 3-4 defeats with Hughes buying in more defenders to replace the ones getting shot to pieces but at some stage people would have to accept that this is not a sustainable strategy nor a receipe for top flight success in the PL or CL. At some point someone would have to get the squad together and teach them the basics of defence and organisation. Like it or not that is what Mancini is doing, or trying to do, whilst keeping us in the hunt for a top 4 spot. To win the big prizes we need some bloody minded cunt in charge who will teach us what it takes to be one of the big boys and yes I think Mancini has that in his DNA. Whether he has enough of it or can impart it quickly enough remains to be seen.

At the end of day though its academic because if we trust the guy in charge we take a long term view and forgive him his short term sins if we can see rationale in what he is doing. If we don't trust the guy in charge we think he is a clueless/negative* cunt and piss over anything he does irrespective of whether it makes sense or not. It was ever thus.

* delete as applicable

[Original Dub]

No way did we do anything but drop points on Sunday. It was a much better result for Liverpool as they have an easier run in & unless they fuck up (which is very possible of course as they're morbidly unimaginitive) they should now get 4th barring one of the other teams pulling off some brilliant/unlikely results.

I don't blame Mancini for it though, I just think our players weren't good enough to break them down.

I do think people missed a point with Hughes re this 'mentality' thing though & re tactics. He was trying to build a mentality of always forcing your game on the oppo & being fearless ala rags which means more vulnerability & lack of confidence at the back if it goes wrong. The current one is to nullify the strengths of the opposition & then force your game on them & beat them ala Italy which means lack of attacking strength & confidence if it goes wrong. Neither are clueless or naive, just different. I prefer the former personally & think it's better for the club to go that way.

That is exactly it. I think we needed to beat them to keep a strong grip on 4th, given the run in...

[Twobob]

I think there's been a lack of confidence in our Defence for a while and this is affecting our Midfield, until we stick with a decent CB pairing (Komps and Lescott did well on Sunday so we'll see ...) then we're probably still going to see Barry nervous about going forward more ... just a thought ...

We have been playing quite a lot of our games with the 'Dont Lose' attitude as opposed to a Winning attitude though.

But to say that 'the ghost of Vieira' is a better option than Barry at this moment in time is ludicrous - soz.

[Original Dub]

Most of our lads DID seem up for it. It was just Barry who was doing fuck all again.

He is supposed to be box-to-box midfielders but offers absolutely NOTHING going forward and seems lazy. Not happy with his attitude at all and I personally hope that Vieira will replace Barry when he gets out of his suspension.

This is almost as bad as the assessment you made of De Jong after the derby match. Stop taking LSD a half hour before each match mate, its affecting your analysis ;)

[BobKowalski]

Its a funny old world Part deux

In light of Mr Barry's comments on the 'worst premiership game ever' yesterday an extract from a report from 2005 on the match between Liverpool and Man U which ended...0-0

"IT SEEMS odd that barely a month into the season, two sides with credible title ambitions can be embroiled in a game they dare not lose.

Yet that was the depressing experience a disbelieving capacity crowd at Anfield endured yesterday, as the fear of defeat inhibited both Liverpool and Manchester United to the extent that two sides brimming with attacking talent barely produced a chance...

...You could say it produces a yawning gap, because this encounter was so dull that even Mourinho would complain about a lack of entertainment. It took 44 minutes for either side to muster a single chance, a chip from Ruud van Nistelrooy that looped over. The highlight before that? The appearance of Russ Abbott in the director's box..."

Personally I blame Liverpool always looking to grind out a nil-nil against the top sides :)