Stability was the answer.

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Re: Stability was the answer.

Postby BJTOUSERB » Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:12 pm

john68 wrote:so Hughes wasn't the man for you..sack him....and if mancini doesn't cut the mustard...sack him too...what about the next manager and the next...etc? Do we keep hiring and firing them?

In over 50 years of supporting City, I have watched 27 managers come and go....I'm still waiting for the one we dicide to give the time to develop his particular project....or do we keep upour short term policy for another 50 years if one doesn't succeed in the 1st few seasons.

It doesn't matter what the quality of the ingredients you use to bake the cake...They have to be put together and blended correctly...That takes time.

Regarding Mancini, He was brought in to have an immediate positive impact because our ownwers felt that Hughes may not make the top 4. He was brought in to specifically ensure that target was reached. He doesn't have time.

dead right.
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Re: Stability was the answer.

Postby Im_Spartacus » Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:12 pm

wesmancity wrote:Wilf Wild------------------------1932-1946----------14 years (Won F.A Cup, First Division)
Les Mcdowall-------------------1950-1963----------13 years
Ernest Mangnall----------------1912-1924-----------12 years
Sam Omerod--------------------1895-1902------------7 years
Joe Mercer--------------------1965-1971--------------6 years (First Div Champ, FA Cup, Lea Cup, Uefa Cup)
Peter Hodge---------------------1926-1932----------6 years
Harry Newbould----------------1906-1912------------6 years
Tony Book (2nd Time)----------1974-1979------------5 years (League Cup)
Kevin Keegan--------------------2001-2005------------4 years
Tom Maley----------------------1902-1906-----------4 years (won the F.A Cup)
Lawrence Furniss--------------1889-1893-------------4 years
Joe Royal-------------------------1998-2001-------------3 years
Peter Reid------------------------1990-1993-------------3 years
Billy McNeill---------------------1983-1986-------------3 years
Jock Thomson------------------1947-1950------------3 years
Edward Kitchen---------------1884-1887-------------3 years
John Bond-------------------------1980-1983-----------3 years
Stuart Pearce---------------------2005-2007------------2 years
Frank Clark-----------------------1996-1998------------2 years
Brian Horton--------------------1993-1995-------------2 years
Mel Machin------------------------1987-1989----------2 years
Malcolm Allison----------------1971-1973------------2 years
George Povser------------------1963-1965------------2 years
Frederick Hopkinson ---------1880-1882--------------2 years
Walter Chew-------------------1887-1889-------------2 years
Joshua Parlby-------------------1893-1895-------------2 years
Mark Hughes----------------------2008-2009------------1 year
Sven-Goran Eriksson-----------2007-2008------------1 year
Alan Ball--------------------------1995-1996------------1 year
Howard Kendall------------------1989-1990-----------1 year
Malcolm Allison (2nd Time)---1979-1980------------1 year
David Ashworth---------------1924-1925------------1 year
Albert Alexander--------------1925-1926-------------1 year
Sam Cowen--------------------1946-1947-------------1 year
Jimmy Frizzell---------------------1986-1987----------8 months
Johnny Hart----------------------1973-1973-----------5 months
Ron Saunders----------------------1973-1974----------5 months
John Benson------------------------1983-1983---------4 months
Roberto Mancini------------------2009-Present--------3 months
Wilf Wild (2nd Time)---------1947-1947-------------2 months
Tony Book-----------------------1973-1973-----------1 month
Phil Neal--------------------------1996-1996------------6 weeks
Steve Coppell--------------------1996- 1996-----------4 weeks

Not one manager who has been successful with Manchester City won anything in their first 2 seasons.

Plus.....


The four most successful mangers in the English League never won out for the few season bar one who was Bob Paisley, but he did take over from Bill Shankly who build the side.

Brian Clough
Derby County , managed the team from 1967 to 1973 didn’t win anything till the 71/72 season so that’s 4 years

Nottingham Forest, managed the team from 1975 to 1993 didn’t win anything till 1978 so that’s 3 years.

Alex Ferguson
The Scum, started managing them from 1986 and the utd faith full put a banner at old Trafford saying "Three years of excuses and it's still crap. Ta ra Fergie." Sound like something I hear on here! Alex then won them a cup so it took him 3 years.

Bill Shankly
Started at Liverpool in 1959 an won his first trophy in 1965 so that’s 6 years

Bob Paisley
Started at Liverpool in 1974 an won his first trophy in 75


Well copied from Bluemoon. Shall I copy and paste all the replies to save us all the bother?

Lets start with, explain Mourinho (league), Ramos(league cup), Benitez (champions league) to name just 3 off the top of my head in the last 5 years who won something in their first season.
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Re: Stability was the answer.

Postby brite blu sky » Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:13 pm

john68 wrote: Mancini has come in and instead of taking the weaknesses he inherited and simply working to improve them, he has started back at the beginning...his beginning.
It looks as if we have gone backwards the 1st job that most managers do before starting their own journey is to demolish what the previous tenant has left them. There are no quick fixes...the 1st few yards of any manager are always the hard yards. We have to learn to suffer them...be patient...and supportive.
Until we learn that...we will never create the dynasty that we crave.


This imo is spot on, and have posted comments to that effect. It appears as though he has trashed what was being built and has just applied what he want irrespective of any good stuff we had before. I dont blame him entirely for that, but i had hoped he was not so arrogant as to do that, particularly as he has no experience of PL. The board have to shoulder most of the criticism if there is any. Also i guess at this stage ( 3 months in ) it is also perhaps an overreaction to say that what he is trying to do is what we have seen so far.
As i say the board have to take a lot of responsibility for swapping manager half way through a season with a team that hasnt been together long enough to be resilient to that dramatic change.
Mancini may yet turn it around of course..
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Re: Stability was the answer.

Postby CityFanFromRome » Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:21 pm

brite blu sky wrote:This imo is spot on, and have posted comments to that effect. It appears as though he has trashed what was being built and has just applied what he want irrespective of any good stuff we had before. I dont blame him entirely for that, but i had hoped he was not so arrogant as to do that, particularly as he has no experience of PL. The board have to shoulder most of the criticism if there is any. Also i guess at this stage ( 3 months in ) it is also perhaps an overreaction to say that what he is trying to do is what we have seen so far.
As i say the board have to take a lot of responsibility for swapping manager half way through a season with a team that hasnt been together long enough to be resilient to that dramatic change.
Mancini may yet turn it around of course..

I don't think he could have done otherwise, the style we used before is not the one he wants us to play so he had to start from scratch, maybe the first few games he allowed the players a bit more freedom but then he had to start working on introducing his own style.
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Re: Stability was the answer.

Postby brite blu sky » Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:35 pm

CityFanFromRome wrote:
brite blu sky wrote:This imo is spot on, and have posted comments to that effect. It appears as though he has trashed what was being built and has just applied what he want irrespective of any good stuff we had before. I dont blame him entirely for that, but i had hoped he was not so arrogant as to do that, particularly as he has no experience of PL. The board have to shoulder most of the criticism if there is any. Also i guess at this stage ( 3 months in ) it is also perhaps an overreaction to say that what he is trying to do is what we have seen so far.
As i say the board have to take a lot of responsibility for swapping manager half way through a season with a team that hasnt been together long enough to be resilient to that dramatic change.
Mancini may yet turn it around of course..

I don't think he could have done otherwise, the style we used before is not the one he wants us to play so he had to start from scratch, maybe the first few games he allowed the players a bit more freedom but then he had to start working on introducing his own style.


in general i cant disagree with that tbh, although i think my point is the difference between coming in at the start of a season and half way through. It must have occured to him that we were not doing everything that badly.. we were not after all fighting for survival or in any way in trouble. There is a big difference there imo
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Re: Stability was the answer.

Postby CityFanFromRome » Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:39 pm

brite blu sky wrote:in general i cant disagree with that tbh, although i think my point is the difference between coming in at the start of a season and half way through. It must have occured to him that we were not doing everything that badly.. we were not after all fighting for survival or in any way in trouble. There is a big difference there imo

Oh I know what you mean, I'm just saying, the biggest problem we had was that we conceded too many goals, especially too many stupid ones, so he had to work on tightening the defence, and to do so he had to sacrifice our attacking ability, at least for a while. I really can't see another way to tighten the back, if not to protect it with a solid midfield until they learn the zonal marking he wanted to implement.
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Re: Stability was the answer.

Postby john68 » Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:40 pm

That my friend from Rome is the whole point.
There can be no stability if the new guy continuously demolishes what went before and then the board don't give the new guy the time to finish his project.
Every new manager that comes in then goes back to the beginning and the process restarts all over again. The new manager wants his own players in who he feels can do the job he wants and that takes time to get them in and longer to get them to gel.
It is like walking up a mountain only to keep going back down to the bottom to start back up again.
Then wondering why the fucl you never get to the top.

We have been doing it for 50 years and still haven't worked it out yet...maybe one day...but I have my doubts.

You post mentioned what mancini wanted...not what the club needed. It is the club's needs that must come first.
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Re: Stability was the answer.

Postby Bluez » Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:43 pm

john68 wrote:so Hughes wasn't the man for you..sack him....and if mancini doesn't cut the mustard...sack him too...what about the next manager and the next...etc? Do we keep hiring and firing them?

In over 50 years of supporting City, I have watched 27 managers come and go....I'm still waiting for the one we dicide to give the time to develop his particular project....or do we keep upour short term policy for another 50 years if one doesn't succeed in the 1st few seasons.

It doesn't matter what the quality of the ingredients you use to bake the cake...They have to be put together and blended correctly...That takes time.

Regarding Mancini, He was brought in to have an immediate positive impact because our ownwers felt that Hughes may not make the top 4. He was brought in to specifically ensure that target was reached. He doesn't have time.


Thats Mancinis biggest problem, he was brought in to be an instant hit, so far it hasn't clicked. I do think he will still have the possibility to stay on even if we miss 4th. He is definitely here until the end of the season and I think if he can improve the attack side of things and show signs of whats to come he may get the chance next season. If he stays with the set up we have at the moment there is no way he will get past his 6 month get out clause. It does take time to gel but we need to see glimpses that we will gel eventually. So far we haven't.
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Re: Stability was the answer.

Postby BobKowalski » Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:48 pm

brite blu sky wrote:
CityFanFromRome wrote:
brite blu sky wrote:This imo is spot on, and have posted comments to that effect. It appears as though he has trashed what was being built and has just applied what he want irrespective of any good stuff we had before. I dont blame him entirely for that, but i had hoped he was not so arrogant as to do that, particularly as he has no experience of PL. The board have to shoulder most of the criticism if there is any. Also i guess at this stage ( 3 months in ) it is also perhaps an overreaction to say that what he is trying to do is what we have seen so far.
As i say the board have to take a lot of responsibility for swapping manager half way through a season with a team that hasnt been together long enough to be resilient to that dramatic change.
Mancini may yet turn it around of course..

I don't think he could have done otherwise, the style we used before is not the one he wants us to play so he had to start from scratch, maybe the first few games he allowed the players a bit more freedom but then he had to start working on introducing his own style.


in general i cant disagree with that tbh, although i think my point is the difference between coming in at the start of a season and half way through. It must have occured to him that we were not doing everything that badly.. we were not after all fighting for survival or in any way in trouble. There is a big difference there imo


We were not fighting for survival but we are fighting to get into the top 4 and that is a whole new ball game to the club and a lot of the players as well. Someone like Given is used to shot stopping behind a badly organised defence as his club fends off yet another disappointing season and relegation looms. Given having to organise and be part of a defence that has to match what a top 4 defence does week in and week out is fairly new territory. Under Hughes Given knew his job. Under Mancini he is learning a different role.

In a sense getting top 4 is about survival. Just not survival in terms that we understand it.
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Re: Stability was the answer.

Postby Goataldo » Fri Feb 26, 2010 6:22 pm

Aye to the thread: stability was definitely the answer we should have come up with.

The fact that Mancini or A.N.Other manager would seem to absolutely need a top four finish to be employed by us next season, is for me, precisely the reason we should have stuck with the previous manager (what's his name again?) til the end of the season. It's a ridiculously short amount of time to build your own team, squad, playing style etc.

I was totally crestfallen when we gave in to the pressure in exactly the same way we always do, the revolving door just doesn't stop spinning does it. It absolutely stunk of panic, an ill concieved reaction from people for whom desperation won the battle with footballing common sense, and the current situation is bearing that out big time in my view. If we capitulate further and fail to break the top four, we are going to look like a right set of nobs, and for good reason.

I'm behind Mancini in that I really wanna back him, but he's given precious little reasons for me to be enhusiastic so far- quite the opposite in fact. Before him, even though we endured the odd dire performance, and an annoying amount of individual player mistakes, it was interspersed with some terrific attacking football, something that really gave me hope, and kept a fierce belief inside that we were capable of going that step further whcih we so crave. That feeling's all but evaporated now, and it's back to the old stiff upper lip and blind hope.

I'm wondering is there anyone out there who was calling for a change in manager who now thinks that it was a daft idea?
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Re: Stability was the answer.

Postby CityFanFromRome » Fri Feb 26, 2010 6:26 pm

john68 wrote:That my friend from Rome is the whole point.
There can be no stability if the new guy continuously demolishes what went before and then the board don't give the new guy the time to finish his project.
Every new manager that comes in then goes back to the beginning and the process restarts all over again. The new manager wants his own players in who he feels can do the job he wants and that takes time to get them in and longer to get them to gel.
It is like walking up a mountain only to keep going back down to the bottom to start back up again.
Then wondering why the fucl you never get to the top.

We have been doing it for 50 years and still haven't worked it out yet...maybe one day...but I have my doubts.

You post mentioned what mancini wanted...not what the club needed. It is the club's needs that must come first.
Of course, but any manager will do what he feels best for the club, because, at the end of the day, it's only doing what's best for the club that he can keep his job. So, to rephrase my previous post, Mancini thought the club needed a tighter defence, so to achieve that he resorted to zonal marking, and to protect the back line with defensive midfielders until the players learned it, but in doing so he sacrificed, knowingly or not I don't know, the attacking ability we previously had shown. But he did that because he felt it was what the club needed in the long run.
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Re: Stability was the answer.

Postby john68 » Fri Feb 26, 2010 6:34 pm

I agree that it might work out in the long term but that is missing the point. His target was short term and specific...get us into the top 4 at the end of the season.
He hasn't got the time to make wholesale changes that may prove good in the long term, nor get his own players in.
He has a target and a time limit.
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Re: Stability was the answer.

Postby Original Dub » Fri Feb 26, 2010 6:57 pm

uwe's_skyblue_duvet wrote:Aye to the thread: stability was definitely the answer we should have come up with.

The fact that Mancini or A.N.Other manager would seem to absolutely need a top four finish to be employed by us next season, is for me, precisely the reason we should have stuck with the previous manager (what's his name again?) til the end of the season. It's a ridiculously short amount of time to build your own team, squad, playing style etc.

I was totally crestfallen when we gave in to the pressure in exactly the same way we always do, the revolving door just doesn't stop spinning does it. It absolutely stunk of panic, an ill concieved reaction from people for whom desperation won the battle with footballing common sense, and the current situation is bearing that out big time in my view. If we capitulate further and fail to break the top four, we are going to look like a right set of nobs, and for good reason.

I'm behind Mancini in that I really wanna back him, but he's given precious little reasons for me to be enhusiastic so far- quite the opposite in fact. Before him, even though we endured the odd dire performance, and an annoying amount of individual player mistakes, it was interspersed with some terrific attacking football, something that really gave me hope, and kept a fierce belief inside that we were capable of going that step further whcih we so crave. That feeling's all but evaporated now, and it's back to the old stiff upper lip and blind hope.

I'm wondering is there anyone out there who was calling for a change in manager who now thinks that it was a daft idea?


Of course there is mate, there are plenty of folk like that, but the ones who really really called for it have football and the future figured out because they already know Mancini is what we need. What he has done in English football so far has more than impressed them.

Or at least they have to say that because they look like fucking idiots lately.
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Re: Stability was the answer.

Postby Goataldo » Fri Feb 26, 2010 7:11 pm

Original Dub wrote:
uwe's_skyblue_duvet wrote:I'm wondering is there anyone out there who was calling for a change in manager who now thinks that it was a daft idea?


Of course there is mate, there are plenty of folk like that, but the ones who really really called for it have football and the future figured out because they already know Mancini is what we need. What he has done in English football so far has more than impressed them.

Or at least they have to say that because they look like fucking idiots lately.


We (City) will look like even bigger idiots if we don;t make the top four. Talk about pressure! Mancini could well convince me that we should keep him on by the end of the season, even if we don't make the Chumps League, but I'd bet we'd get rid of him and start the whole thing again.
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Re: Stability was the answer.

Postby Nick » Fri Feb 26, 2010 7:45 pm

gillie wrote:But being Manchester City that was never going to happen.Getting to the CC Semi-Final was not enough because of 8 draws in the league yes 8 draws not losses since then we have gone out of both cups and in our current form destained for 7th at best so yes MR Chairman and the rest of the bigwigs explain to me how Mr Mancini is an improvement on Mr Hughes.


To be fair they were listening to a lot of muppet fans.

We also got what we wanted with shay coming for delaps throws, and it failed, TWICE.
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Re: Stability was the answer.

Postby Im_Spartacus » Fri Feb 26, 2010 7:57 pm

Original Dub wrote:
uwe's_skyblue_duvet wrote:Aye to the thread: stability was definitely the answer we should have come up with.

The fact that Mancini or A.N.Other manager would seem to absolutely need a top four finish to be employed by us next season, is for me, precisely the reason we should have stuck with the previous manager (what's his name again?) til the end of the season. It's a ridiculously short amount of time to build your own team, squad, playing style etc.

I was totally crestfallen when we gave in to the pressure in exactly the same way we always do, the revolving door just doesn't stop spinning does it. It absolutely stunk of panic, an ill concieved reaction from people for whom desperation won the battle with footballing common sense, and the current situation is bearing that out big time in my view. If we capitulate further and fail to break the top four, we are going to look like a right set of nobs, and for good reason.

I'm behind Mancini in that I really wanna back him, but he's given precious little reasons for me to be enhusiastic so far- quite the opposite in fact. Before him, even though we endured the odd dire performance, and an annoying amount of individual player mistakes, it was interspersed with some terrific attacking football, something that really gave me hope, and kept a fierce belief inside that we were capable of going that step further whcih we so crave. That feeling's all but evaporated now, and it's back to the old stiff upper lip and blind hope.

I'm wondering is there anyone out there who was calling for a change in manager who now thinks that it was a daft idea?


Of course there is mate, there are plenty of folk like that, but the ones who really really called for it have football and the future figured out because they already know Mancini is what we need. What he has done in English football so far has more than impressed them.

Or at least they have to say that because they look like fucking idiots lately.


I'll admit to "really really" calling for a change of manager, as I just thought Hughes was not the man for the long term. However I didnt particularly want us to do it when we did as at that time I was reasonably happy with how things were going. I would only have changed managers mid season if I thought the incoming bloke thought he could coax more out of the players we had, with a remit to build on the foundations Hughes had laid, which was a team full of good players with an attacking mentality.

After my intial disbelief at the way it was handled, I thought at outset though it was a no lose scenario, Mancini achieves top 4, great - if not we move onto the top target. However I had no idea just how dour we would become under Mancini, and missing out on top 4 is one thing, but having to watch that shit week in week out is torture. I personally think that with what has transpired we would be much better off with Hughes than with a caretaker manager. However to succeed, all businesses have to take risks and it seems this one from a footballing perspective is not paying off, but as for the original aim, it is very much still on, and we are despite all the negativity completely in control of our own destiny.

If they wanted Mourinho, they should have waited till summer and avoided all the upheaval. As a "hater" I would have been happy with that, althought I did get to dispair stage after the spuds game.
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Re: Stability was the answer.

Postby gillie » Fri Feb 26, 2010 8:58 pm

Nick wrote:
gillie wrote:But being Manchester City that was never going to happen.Getting to the CC Semi-Final was not enough because of 8 draws in the league yes 8 draws not losses since then we have gone out of both cups and in our current form destained for 7th at best so yes MR Chairman and the rest of the bigwigs explain to me how Mr Mancini is an improvement on Mr Hughes.


To be fair they were listening to a lot of muppet fans.

We also got what we wanted with shay coming for delaps throws, and it failed, TWICE.

Nick imo it was bad keeping from Shay he is 6ft 1 and yet when he jumped he was below Shawcross both time and dont forget as a keeper he can use hishands/fists so in reality he should be reaching heights in excess of 7ft when jumping.
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Re: Stability was the answer.

Postby LookMumImOnMCF.net » Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:55 pm

I've not read the whole thread because I'm slightly pissed and impatient.

But the days of praying for this 'stability' is over. Stability is surviving relegation, not ending up like Portsmouth. Not challenging for Europe.

Because of our unselfish owners we will always be stable, we need to become fucking mega.
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Re: Stability was the answer.

Postby Im_Spartacus » Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:23 pm

LookMumI'mOnMCF.net wrote:I've not read the whole thread because I'm slightly pissed and impatient.

But the days of praying for this 'stability' is over. Stability is surviving relegation, not ending up like Portsmouth. Not challenging for Europe.

Because of our unselfish owners we will always be stable, we need to become fucking mega.


Premier league era, its not what it used to be

Manager gets 5 yrs, well it aint ever gonna happen in the pl era. Barcelona seem ok, maybe they got lucky with a good manager, or maybe he is actually a top manager?????
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Re: Stability was the answer.

Postby LookMumImOnMCF.net » Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:34 pm

johnpb78 wrote:
LookMumI'mOnMCF.net wrote:I've not read the whole thread because I'm slightly pissed and impatient.

But the days of praying for this 'stability' is over. Stability is surviving relegation, not ending up like Portsmouth. Not challenging for Europe.

Because of our unselfish owners we will always be stable, we need to become fucking mega.


Premier league era, its not what it used to be

Manager gets 5 yrs, well it aint ever gonna happen in the pl era. Barcelona seem ok, maybe they got lucky with a good manager, or maybe he is actually a top manager?????

But Barca have been massive for years. They're so big that you can't ever see them slipping from where they are. I genuinely do believe that the longer time goes on the harder it is to break into football's elite.

We need to be persistent. This goes above the manager to the owners. They need to question themselves constantly to check they're doing the right thing, and that includes selecting the right manager.

But yeah, stability is bullshit now. Yes I think a manager needs to be given a few years to do his thing, but that's not stability as we know it Jim.
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