Midfield conundrum

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Midfield conundrum

Postby Green & Blue » Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:45 pm

Many may not feel the same but although i like both De jong and Barry im not sure playing both at the same time is working for us.
Both players in their own right are quality players but as a pairing they provide us with very little pace or creative movement through the middle of the park.
The thing is i would actually find it very difficult to decide who i would sacrifice between the two if for instance Ireland or Vieira were to come into the side.Both are good at retaining possesion and are effective as far as retaining possesion and doing the simple thing is concerned but its creating a flat look to the midfield with little or no attacking purpose.

Even in saying this im not sure what the solution is,i dont know who i would even want to come in in place of one of the pair.
Ireland looks a shadow of himself,his bubbling confidence and drive that provided so much excitement last season seems a distant memory as hes continued to fail to impress on so many occassions.
Vieira the other option provides great experience which could be priceless in the run in as things are going to be tight for 4th.He still looks usefull i think but im just not convinced hes got the stamina anymore to last 90 minutes or the legs to play in a run of games.In some ways like Bellamys case where he can still do it but needs time to recuperate.


Does anyone else agree that we need more of a cutting edge to our midfield ?
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Re: Midfield conundrum

Postby Burt » Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:53 pm

Good post IMO mate. We've been crying out for a proper creative midfield player the likes of Fabregas etc for too long now and I get increasingly infuriated with all the dough we've got, that we've not signed anyone in that role.

Hopefully, we'll get a really corking player to solve that before next season cos surely everyone can see what we need to make this team a good un.
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Re: Midfield conundrum

Postby Wooders » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:19 pm

I'd like to see us utilise Barry in the same manner that England do - this is bad news for De Jong who in theory has done nothing wrong but out of the two I would keep Barry for various reasons, the main one being homegrown is of massive importance given the upcoming rules
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Re: Midfield conundrum

Postby Ted Hughes » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:20 pm

Think it depends on who we're playing against & how quickly we support the forwards. If we get that right it'll be a decent midfield in some games. Agree we need to move up another level in quality to get where we want to be though. Ireland was that quality last season but now looks similar to the player he was a few years ago; a good but not a top player. He has the talent to come back though.

Barry & DeJong are very good players to have who are sometimes excellent but they shouldn't be the best we've got in those positions. Yesterday, 97 year old Vieira gave us glimpses of what he used to be & reminded us how much better he was at his peak than anything we've got now. That's the standard we want.
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Re: Midfield conundrum

Postby getdressedmctavish » Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:26 pm

It is a tricky one. Barry is lucky in that he gets the nod for England cos lampard and Gerrard cant play together. Yet at City he cant play with de Jong. You would think de Jong, Barry and Ireland would work but Stevie has decided to do a funny one on us and has looked poor when we've tried this. When Vieira comes in he needs de Jong to sit behind him which renders the team too slow and predictable.Maybe the unthinkable, de Jong, Vieira and Ireland would work.For sure its why we're stumbling.Which ever three we go for there is always a major compromise involved.
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Re: Midfield conundrum

Postby aaron bond » Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:39 pm

As much as I like De Jong, I think his game is too narrow and he can't really do much more than tackle.

I understand his job is to break the play up, but it should also be to then pass the ball into the right areas - something he increasingly appears unable to do. He very rarely makes an incisive forward pass or sets up a goal. His role, in my opinion, could be done by Barry alone, who is a much better passer of the ball. This would then free up a space for a more attack-minded player in De Jong's place.

I like Aston Villa's midfield. They have Petrov who, although not a hard-man type player like De Jong, is there to break the play up and then ensure the ball gets to the right areas. They then have Milner, Young and Downing who are attacking players but do their jobs defensively too. Carrick does a job like this for United, and Alonso did it last year for Liverpool.

Like I said, I like De Jong and love his never say die attitude. But unless he shows he's capable of more than just a crunching tackle, I think we should look at other options in our set up.
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Re: Midfield conundrum

Postby Dingus McDouchey » Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:49 pm

instead of sacrificing Barry or De Jong, let's play them both, and Zabaleta too.
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Re: Midfield conundrum

Postby dazby » Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:27 am

I agree. Our midfield is letting us down at the moment. The blend is not right. It needs to be sorted.
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Re: Midfield conundrum

Postby Pretty Boy Lee » Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:20 am

Call me crazy, but I didn't mind central role SWP played for bits last season. Love to play AJ, Gaz Baz, Bellers and SWP and just attack the shit out of some team.

Either that or slap Ireland upside the head and wake him up again.
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Re: Midfield conundrum

Postby mcfc1632 » Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:37 am

I think that de jong and Barry are good to play together - I would wish both were more creative - I would wish that both could break into the box off the front 2 and score goals - and I would wish that both (especially Barry) had more pace

But they can really support the back four and break up play (especially de jong) and they can both hold the ball up - play calmly and controlled (especially Barry) - they are both top players that could get into most teams - it is the other 2 to play with them that are the conundrum for me

What is gut-wrenching is the way that Stevie has not kicked on from last year because with those 2 as support he should have been ripping a new arse out of so many teams - especially with Tevez creating so much space - then Ade/RSC can be great target men - I think that Stevie has missed his chance - and it was the chance to be a world star

Also SWP - he has seemed very limited - despite how we all love him

Liverpool play Mascherano along with either Lucas, Acqulani or Rodriguez - with Gerrard playing the rampaging role - but you also get great support in MF and on the wings from Torres and Benayoun

The scum play Carrick and Fletcher - who also get great support from Rooney. they play 2 wide men like us but can do this because the rest of the team are moving both forward and back so fluidly it does not leave the middle exposed

Chelsea always have Essien (or Mikeil) with Ballack - also supported of course by Lampard - their wide men also offer good MF support

Even more the case with Arsenal who like to have 5 MFs all able to attack/create but all able to defend

For ages we have had a problem in that we have an in-balance in MF because in the modern game you need players that can fill multi-roles - the days of wingers doing nothing else are a thing of the past - as are FBs that cannot be great WBs (Richards)

I think that the summer will see us:

Replace Richards with a top RB that is also a great WB

Replace SWP with a genuine MF who can also do a job breaking right (or left)

Bring in someone ahead of Stevie to be that star MF do the Lampard role

Fixing de jong and Barry is (IMO) fixing the wrong problem

Meanwhile we need to give Stevie another chance - probably by sacrificing SWP

Johnson - I love him as much as anyone - but he needs to take this chance to either grow in physical strength and add more to his game - or show that he can be such an incredible world beater as a out and out wide player that he can justify his position on that basis alone

It is not rocket science that almost all the top teams provide out and out width from their full backs - meaning you can have more quality players in MF - able to move side left/right - like Gerrard - with strikers able to do similar - as Torres did repeatedly last night - as Anelka often does
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Re: Midfield conundrum

Postby Crossie » Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:58 am

Don't worry about AJ's physically ability. He is the sort of player that will get fouled all the time, and as long as he looks after himself, he will be fine.

Giggs is a skinny fucker but it hasnt held him back has it?

The biggest disapointment this season has been Ireland, he just never looked as good as last season. Remeber when he had the problem on the pitch during an early game this season, and was rested for a few weeks, i think something affected him mentally then.
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Re: Midfield conundrum

Postby btajim » Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:18 am

Burt wrote:Good post IMO mate. We've been crying out for a proper creative midfield player the likes of Fabregas etc for too long now and I get increasingly infuriated with all the dough we've got, that we've not signed anyone in that role.

Hopefully, we'll get a really corking player to solve that before next season cos surely everyone can see what we need to make this team a good un.


Definitely. Signing Vieira when there was already De Jong, Kompany and Zabaleta to play in that role was madness. A. Johnson has been a brilliant acquisition - and so would have any creative Midfielder who gave Ireland some competition / motivation to get back to his form under Hughes.

Did we ever replace Elano properly? Hopefully with someone who was fit enough to play for 90 minutes, too.
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Re: Midfield conundrum

Postby mcfc1632 » Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:37 am

I am no big Vierra fan - but I think that signing him was more to do with having some winning influence in the squad and I really think that he will move into some coaching role with Mancini - gives him a trusted aide
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Re: Midfield conundrum

Postby Rag_hater » Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:56 am

I dont think there is much wrong with the midfield.Our position in the table also suggest that it is functioning at a reasonable level.I've always thought that players of a certain level should be able to perform to a certain standard and that giving them time would only result in there being more understanding between them.However in the case of our midfield I think that given more time to play together they will get better.For me its a weak excuse but the slight improvement they need will come if they are given time to "gel".If they get us 4th in this there first full season together then next year when they are more of a unit I think they will be dominant against everyone.
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Re: Midfield conundrum

Postby Green & Blue » Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:28 pm

Rag_hater wrote:I dont think there is much wrong with the midfield.Our position in the table also suggest that it is functioning at a reasonable level.I've always thought that players of a certain level should be able to perform to a certain standard and that giving them time would only result in there being more understanding between them.However in the case of our midfield I think that given more time to play together they will get better.For me its a weak excuse but the slight improvement they need will come if they are given time to "gel".If they get us 4th in this there first full season together then next year when they are more of a unit I think they will be dominant against everyone.


I personally dont think its a case of them needing time to gel.I just feel that neither player shows any drive going forward and we need that in our midfield especially against the sides in the bottom half.
Its all well and good having Dejong and Barry against the likes of Chelsea and Arsenal where they can get stuck in and be very effective,im all for that given the opponent on the day.
I just feel the ideal situation is if we could have two players who compliment each other not two who are very alike in the manner in which they play its leaving us look very flat at times and lacking in ideas they both tend to play the safe ball never looking to break away etc
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Re: Midfield conundrum

Postby colonel_muck » Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:22 pm

I would play three in the centre, De Jong in the defensive role and Vieira and Ireland in front of him. Could Vieira put in 90 mins week in week out? No, but we've got more chance of having a comfortable lead after an hour if he starts. Gareth Barry quite frankly annoys me most of the time. How someone who has played in the premier league for so long cannot seem to realise he doesn't have much time on the ball is beyond me.
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Re: Midfield conundrum

Postby brite blu sky » Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:08 pm

Green & Blue wrote:I personally dont think its a case of them needing time to gel.I just feel that neither player shows any drive going forward and we need that in our midfield especially against the sides in the bottom half.
Its all well and good having Dejong and Barry against the likes of Chelsea and Arsenal where they can get stuck in and be very effective,im all for that given the opponent on the day.
I just feel the ideal situation is if we could have two players who compliment each other not two who are very alike in the manner in which they play its leaving us look very flat at times and lacking in ideas they both tend to play the safe ball never looking to break away etc


I dont agree they play the same game, Barry is very capable of attacking.. by short one twos forward, or longer distribution balls or indeed by carrying the ball forward.
My take is that he isnt in the right positions when we are being hassled non stop, he gets pulled too deep where he is not effective and looks off the pace. It isnt that he sometimes doesn't play well iether.. although that is what it looks like on the surface. Move him forward 10 yards and suddenly he is more effective...
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Re: Midfield conundrum

Postby Im_Spartacus » Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:41 pm

The problem with our midfielders is that they are good at one part of the game, and poor at most others.

If you had Andy Gray /Sky technology, you could probably draw a small circle in the middle of the pitch, and 90 times out of 100 you would find ALL of our midfielders in that circle if you stopped play at any point in any of our games in the last 12 months, whether defending or attacking.

They are too one dimensional and therefore whilst we have loads of attacking threat from the wings or old "inside forward" position, it is just entirely predictable that this is where our threat has to come from, because the midfield is being out-thought and sometimes even outfought despite our weight of numbers and talent we have in there.

It is just too easy to defend against that lack of mobility, so if they cut off our wing play, we are fucked, royally.

As much as I hate the revolving door of players, I'd personally rip it up and start again JUST because we have the money, and don't doubt for a minute that either Mancini or a new manager will do exactly that.
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Re: Midfield conundrum

Postby Ted Hughes » Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:56 pm

johnpb78 wrote:The problem with our midfielders is that they are good at one part of the game, and poor at most others.

If you had Andy Gray /Sky technology, you could probably draw a small circle in the middle of the pitch, and 90 times out of 100 you would find ALL of our midfielders in that circle if you stopped play at any point in any of our games in the last 12 months, whether defending or attacking.

They are too one dimensional and therefore whilst we have loads of attacking threat from the wings or old "inside forward" position, it is just entirely predictable that this is where our threat has to come from, because the midfield is being out-thought and sometimes even outfought despite our weight of numbers and talent we have in there.

It is just too easy to defend against that lack of mobility, so if they cut off our wing play, we are fucked, royally.

As much as I hate the revolving door of players, I'd personally rip it up and start again JUST because we have the money, and don't doubt for a minute that either Mancini or a new manager will do exactly that.



I think they're good players but not the best. I don't think we should bin them though, just add a bit more quality & mix it around depending on the oppo. One big problem is none of them particularly want the ball deep, (unfortunately that goes for Ireland too who should be demanding the ball everywhere but doesn't). If they ALL wanted it we could take the ball from the defenders & create space with a couple of short passes like Barca do or Scholes does for the rags but if teams start to hurry us, our lot make sure they position themselves at an angle where it's just about impossible to pass to them without giving the ball away, thus defenders have to take the responsibility or lump it. It's a bit cowardly really but it happens all the time.
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Re: Midfield conundrum

Postby Im_Spartacus » Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:49 pm

Ted Hughes wrote:
johnpb78 wrote:The problem with our midfielders is that they are good at one part of the game, and poor at most others.

If you had Andy Gray /Sky technology, you could probably draw a small circle in the middle of the pitch, and 90 times out of 100 you would find ALL of our midfielders in that circle if you stopped play at any point in any of our games in the last 12 months, whether defending or attacking.

They are too one dimensional and therefore whilst we have loads of attacking threat from the wings or old "inside forward" position, it is just entirely predictable that this is where our threat has to come from, because the midfield is being out-thought and sometimes even outfought despite our weight of numbers and talent we have in there.

It is just too easy to defend against that lack of mobility, so if they cut off our wing play, we are fucked, royally.

As much as I hate the revolving door of players, I'd personally rip it up and start again JUST because we have the money, and don't doubt for a minute that either Mancini or a new manager will do exactly that.



I think they're good players but not the best. I don't think we should bin them though, just add a bit more quality & mix it around depending on the oppo. One big problem is none of them particularly want the ball deep, (unfortunately that goes for Ireland too who should be demanding the ball everywhere but doesn't). If they ALL wanted it we could take the ball from the defenders & create space with a couple of short passes like Barca do or Scholes does for the rags but if teams start to hurry us, our lot make sure they position themselves at an angle where it's just about impossible to pass to them without giving the ball away, thus defenders have to take the responsibility or lump it. It's a bit cowardly really but it happens all the time.


I know what you mean about getting the ball from deep - its like a hot potato when the ball is just inside our half. Understandable if we were panicking about losing posession and silly goals from that area, but we are not - we just dont have a single player prepared to carry the ball from that sort of position.

It just makes us too predicatable. All the opposition midfield have to do is close down the angles and we go backwards then hoof it up field because the player on the ball won't or doesnt have the ability (unfortunately this is my preferred option) take the game to the opposition. Any manager with a shred of tactical nous would crack that as our weakness no problem at all, its why we always play shit in the first half - we have done it nearly all season then had to revert to long ball and the forward's sheer talent to pull us out of the shit.

I am being ultra harsh saying bin them, saying it ONLY on the basis that given the chance I think Mancini would replace the lot for a more mobile pair/3. I just think that Mancini has already alluded to the problem when he had a dig at Hughes spending all that money and leaving the midfield in such a mess (his words not mine). He clearly sees the need for the ball carrier, the one who can switch play in a simple but effective Fabregas/Gerrard/Essien way
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