Finishing above the Pool

[lythamblue]

People can slag us off all the want but its prob the first time since i have been alive that we have finished above them. This is just the start for me. I think its only the 2nd time in 40 years or so that we have done this. I just could not have imagined this 5 years ago.

Next year we have to look at over taking that other bunch of red twats from across the way. God its great to blue!!!

Whilst i agree with the sentiments, they were pretty bad this year weren't they?

The time to celebrate finishing abve someone is when they are second ..... and we still finish above them.

Anyway, it's going in the right direction.

[gillie]

People can slag us off all the want but its prob the first time since i have been alive that we have finished above them. This is just the start for me. I think its only the 2nd time in 40 years or so that we have done this. I just could not have imagined this 5 years ago.

Next year we have to look at over taking that other bunch of red twats from across the way. God its great to blue!!!

Whilst i agree with the sentiments, they were pretty bad this year weren't they?

The time to celebrate finishing abve someone is when they are second ..... and we still finish above them.

Anyway, it's going in the right direction.

Imo if they are not bought by someone with mega riches they are already on the slippery slope to mid-table obscurity.Lets face it at the moment they need Rafa to walk as they cant pay him off and imo there will be a firesale this summer to service the debt.

[zuricity]

I'm too surprised that Liverpool don't seem to be doing so well though.

I can't put my finger on it ! I mean, that through pass from Gerrard to Drogba was absolutely sublime and inch perfect !

[Niall Quinns Discopants]

Good point Ted, the Heysel ban was lifted in the 1990-91 season but if I remember rightly only the Top 3 teams finished in Europe in those days so we wouldn't have anyway.

Really? Well it was probably still their fault anyway because surely it was only limited to 3 clubs BECAUSE of the previous ban, as no English clubs had won it for years so we didn't merit more than the minimum 3 places? There was also the Cupwinners cup which would usually mean an extra place as the FA Cup winners are often top 5.

Winner to European Cup and second and thrid to UEFA Cup was as good as it got back then mate. Unless winner of the previous years competition came from that country meaning they'd get automatic slot.

Also Cup Winners Cup was top competition. Wish they'd brought that back.

[Socrates]

In 35 years I've never know it to happen - can someone quickly confirm the last occasion it did? If we just fall short of fourth, then fifth and finishing above Liverpool will be some consolation. We know where we are going from here, but what's in store for them? I've never had a big problem with Liverpool (they bored me in the eighties, but I cheered their Champions' League win in 2005), but their (temporary?) demise will make it just that little bit easier for City to take a permanent Top 4 slot.

91/92 City 5th Scouse 6th
prior to that
67/68 City 1st Scouse 3rd

[Ted Hughes]

Good point Ted, the Heysel ban was lifted in the 1990-91 season but if I remember rightly only the Top 3 teams finished in Europe in those days so we wouldn't have anyway.

Really? Well it was probably still their fault anyway because surely it was only limited to 3 clubs BECAUSE of the previous ban, as no English clubs had won it for years so we didn't merit more than the minimum 3 places? There was also the Cupwinners cup which would usually mean an extra place as the FA Cup winners are often top 5.

Winner to European Cup and second and thrid to UEFA Cup was as good as it got back then mate. Unless winner of the previous years competition came from that country meaning they'd get automatic slot.

Also Cup Winners Cup was top competition. Wish they'd brought that back.

No mate we had lots more teams in, I've had my anorak on! I don't know exactly what determined how many places were available but for instance in '82-83 we had Ipswich, Arsenal, rags, Southampton in the UEFA, Spurs in the CWC & Liverpool + Villa in the European Cup.

[Socrates]

just checked 81-82 season which explains 82-83 (was 4 in UEFA Cup in those days and 1 in each of the other 2 but holders got to defend)

Liverpool went to European Cup as champions, Villa as holders.
Tottenham to CWC as Cup winners
League Cup was won by Liverpool so extra league place to make up the 4 (Ipswich 2nd, Rags 3rd, Arse 5th, Soton 7th) (Spurs were 4th but already in CWC and Swansea were 6th and Welsh)

[Ted Hughes]

just checked 81-82 season which explains 82-83 (was 4 in UEFA Cup in those days and 1 in each of the other 2 but holders got to defend)

Liverpool went to European Cup as champions, Villa as holders.
Tottenham to CWC as Cup winners
League Cup was won by Liverpool so extra league place to make up the 4 (Ipswich 2nd, Rags 3rd, Arse 5th, Soton 7th) (Spurs were 4th but already in CWC and Swansea were 6th and Welsh)

Yeah I thought we got about 4 in the UEFA. It would have probably been because we got an extra place due to our good record in European competitions. So assuming things had continued in the same manner, without the scouse thugs getting us banned, City would have played in Europe in the early 90's.

Actually, just thinking about it, we may have been a place short anyway because teams like Spurs, Forest & rags etc won the FA cup & league cup around about that time but probably didn't finish top 4, would have been just our luck!

[guv111]

Here we are: City 5th, Liverpool 6th.

http://www.footballstatisticsresults.co ... eague.html

I'd forgotten just how far Liverpool had slipped under the unlovely Graeme Souness.

I'm not sure if we qualified for the UEFA Cup or not in the two years we finished fifth but, Liverpool aside, our clubs were definitely back playing in Europe by 1990-91 or 1991-92.

Edit:

Good point Ted, the Heysel ban was lifted in the 1990-91 season but if I remember rightly only the Top 3 teams finished in Europe in those days so we wouldn't have anyway.

That sounds about right.

[Ted Hughes]

Here we are: City 5th, Liverpool 6th.

http://www.footballstatisticsresults.co ... eague.html

I'd forgotten just how far Liverpool had slipped under the unlovely Graeme Souness.

I'm not sure if we qualified for the UEFA Cup or not in the two years we finished fifth but, Liverpool aside, our clubs were definitely back playing in Europe by 1990-91 or 1991-92.

See above.

[guv111]

Here we are: City 5th, Liverpool 6th.

http://www.footballstatisticsresults.co ... eague.html

I'd forgotten just how far Liverpool had slipped under the unlovely Graeme Souness.

I'm not sure if we qualified for the UEFA Cup or not in the two years we finished fifth but, Liverpool aside, our clubs were definitely back playing in Europe by 1990-91 or 1991-92.

See above.

Cheers, Ted. Interesting thread developing there. There's no doubt the standard of our league football declined hugely thanks to the after-effects of Heysel, and it took the entire 1990s for us to recover. I remember that just about the only overseas players we could attract in this country for years were aged Italians and scores of workmanlike Scandinavians. Our squad now, no matter how much wealth we had, would have been impossible to create in thiose days (not least because most of the team would have been at school!). The Premier League was so poor, no amount of money would have lured a Tevez, an Adebayor or a De Jong to England.

[Ted Hughes]

Here we are: City 5th, Liverpool 6th.

http://www.footballstatisticsresults.co ... eague.html

I'd forgotten just how far Liverpool had slipped under the unlovely Graeme Souness.

I'm not sure if we qualified for the UEFA Cup or not in the two years we finished fifth but, Liverpool aside, our clubs were definitely back playing in Europe by 1990-91 or 1991-92.

See above.

Cheers, Ted. Interesting thread developing there. There's no doubt the standard of our league football declined hugely thanks to the after-effects of Heysel, and it took the entire 1990s for us to recover. I remember that just about the only overseas players we could attract in this country for years were aged Italians and scores of workmanlike Scandinavians. Our squad now, no matter how much wealth we had, would have been impossible to create in thiose days (not least because most of the team would have been at school!). The Premier League was so poor, no amount of money would have lured a Tevez, an Adebayor or a De Jong to England.

There's a lot of truth that the advent of the Sky money etc improved the standard of football because it had become dire. The seeds had been sewn before the European ban, with the influence of people like Charles Hughes as director of coaching at the FA ( a bloke who did extensive research & concluded most goals were scored from less than three passes) his disciples like Graeme Taylor & idiots like Swales in positions of power, happy to let them get on with it. The 'lump it down the channels & score from corners & free kicks' system took over.

The ban couldn't have come at a worse time really as their influence was allowed to grow & we still have remnants of that style today, In fact Villa are like an modern slightly more footballing version of teams from that era. Everton are another (although they're evolving tbf & pass a lot more now) & of course Stoke are still stuck firmly in those days. Having a bit of that style as an option is fine but to base your whole game on it like teams used to, it was really killing football & I hated it.

[Niall Quinns Discopants]

Good point Ted, the Heysel ban was lifted in the 1990-91 season but if I remember rightly only the Top 3 teams finished in Europe in those days so we wouldn't have anyway.

Really? Well it was probably still their fault anyway because surely it was only limited to 3 clubs BECAUSE of the previous ban, as no English clubs had won it for years so we didn't merit more than the minimum 3 places? There was also the Cupwinners cup which would usually mean an extra place as the FA Cup winners are often top 5.

Winner to European Cup and second and thrid to UEFA Cup was as good as it got back then mate. Unless winner of the previous years competition came from that country meaning they'd get automatic slot.

Also Cup Winners Cup was top competition. Wish they'd brought that back.

No mate we had lots more teams in, I've had my anorak on! I don't know exactly what determined how many places were available but for instance in '82-83 we had Ipswich, Arsenal, rags, Southampton in the UEFA, Spurs in the CWC & Liverpool + Villa in the European Cup.

Yeah BUT Ipswich were the holders! So it was three (+winner) for Uefa Cup, one (+winner) for European Cup and one for the Cup winners cup.

So basically I missed the number by one. Certainyl it wasn't the mickey mouse version of these days when barely staying in your league usually means you are in Europe. At least Intertoto ended. That was truly disgraceful and against EVERYTHING getting into Europe stands for.

[Ted Hughes]

Good point Ted, the Heysel ban was lifted in the 1990-91 season but if I remember rightly only the Top 3 teams finished in Europe in those days so we wouldn't have anyway.

Really? Well it was probably still their fault anyway because surely it was only limited to 3 clubs BECAUSE of the previous ban, as no English clubs had won it for years so we didn't merit more than the minimum 3 places? There was also the Cupwinners cup which would usually mean an extra place as the FA Cup winners are often top 5.

Winner to European Cup and second and thrid to UEFA Cup was as good as it got back then mate. Unless winner of the previous years competition came from that country meaning they'd get automatic slot.

Also Cup Winners Cup was top competition. Wish they'd brought that back.

No mate we had lots more teams in, I've had my anorak on! I don't know exactly what determined how many places were available but for instance in '82-83 we had Ipswich, Arsenal, rags, Southampton in the UEFA, Spurs in the CWC & Liverpool + Villa in the European Cup.

Yeah BUT Ipswich were the holders! So it was three (+winner) for Uefa Cup, one (+winner) for European Cup and one for the Cup winners cup.

So basically I missed the number by one. Certainyl it wasn't the mickey mouse version of these days when barely staying in your league usually means you are in Europe. At least Intertoto ended. That was truly disgraceful and against EVERYTHING getting into Europe stands for.

Perhaps I missed one off the list that year then, because the year after Spurs won it there were 5 in the UEFA so there must have been 4 places (inc Lg cup).

No I've just checked & it was 4 the year after Ipswich won so perhaps we got the extra place awarded a couple of seasons after that.

[Socrates]

Good point Ted, the Heysel ban was lifted in the 1990-91 season but if I remember rightly only the Top 3 teams finished in Europe in those days so we wouldn't have anyway.

Really? Well it was probably still their fault anyway because surely it was only limited to 3 clubs BECAUSE of the previous ban, as no English clubs had won it for years so we didn't merit more than the minimum 3 places? There was also the Cupwinners cup which would usually mean an extra place as the FA Cup winners are often top 5.

Winner to European Cup and second and thrid to UEFA Cup was as good as it got back then mate. Unless winner of the previous years competition came from that country meaning they'd get automatic slot.

Also Cup Winners Cup was top competition. Wish they'd brought that back.

No mate we had lots more teams in, I've had my anorak on! I don't know exactly what determined how many places were available but for instance in '82-83 we had Ipswich, Arsenal, rags, Southampton in the UEFA, Spurs in the CWC & Liverpool + Villa in the European Cup.

Yeah BUT Ipswich were the holders! So it was three (+winner) for Uefa Cup, one (+winner) for European Cup and one for the Cup winners cup.

So basically I missed the number by one. Certainyl it wasn't the mickey mouse version of these days when barely staying in your league usually means you are in Europe. At least Intertoto ended. That was truly disgraceful and against EVERYTHING getting into Europe stands for.

No, Ipswich weren't the holders, Gothenberg won it in 82. We usewd to have 4 in UEFA but lost the extra places post-Heysel as we lost co-efficient points through non-competition.

[dazby]

A big yeeehaaa to finishing above the Pool. If we get that Chumps league spot I may have some crowing to do around these parts.

[john68]

Looking at the maximum points that can be achieved as the season draws to a close and climax makes interesting reading.

CHELSEA...86pts
the rags....85pts

ARSENAL....75pts
SPURS.......73pts
CITY.........72pts

VILLA........67pts.

In recent seasons, there seemed to be a clear gap between the top group of clubs and the chasing pack. Though City and Spurs have closed that gap somewhat, the gap still exists and it seems more a case of Liverpool's failure and Arsenal failings that has dropped the former out of the elite group altogether and the latter down from the elite to being at the head of the chasing pack.
Before we start to party too hard, we should acknowledge that we still have some way to go yet.
City have to be the club that the top 2 fear most. We have closed the gap from 40+ pts to around 13pts, in 1 season. That is a major improvement and one which if continued could see us overtake either one or both next season.

Given that the rags have deep financial trouble and are hanging in there with several ageing players who need to be replaced soon, It is concievable that whatever happens over the next few games, we could make a serious challenge for the very top next season.

I think it will be very difficult for Liverpool or any other team to haul their way back up.

[DoomMerchant]

Looking at the maximum points that can be achieved as the season draws to a close and climax makes interesting reading.

CHELSEA...86pts
the rags....85pts

ARSENAL....75pts
SPURS.......73pts
CITY.........72pts

VILLA........67pts.

In recent seasons, there seemed to be a clear gap between the top group of clubs and the chasing pack. Though City and Spurs have closed that gap somewhat, the gap still exists and it seems more a case of Liverpool's failure and Arsenal failings that has dropped the former out of the elite group altogether and the latter down from the elite to being at the head of the chasing pack.
Before we start to party too hard, we should acknowledge that we still have some way to go yet.
City have to be the club that the top 2 fear most. We have closed the gap from 40+ pts to around 13pts, in 1 season. That is a major improvement and one which if continued could see us overtake either one or both next season.

Given that the rags have deep financial trouble and are hanging in there with several ageing players who need to be replaced soon, It is concievable that whatever happens over the next few games, we could make a serious challenge for the very top next season.

I think it will be very difficult for Liverpool or any other team to haul their way back up.

i believe if we'd had an in-form Ireland, Kompany and AJ for an entire season we'd have found a way to mount a title challenge this season, but unfortunately...if yr [strike]uncle[/strike] AUNT had balls, etc.

roll on [strike]next season[/strike] WEDNESDAY and COME THE FUCL ON CITY!!!

cheers

EDIT: i've had a drinky poo or two, fuck off.

[guv111]

There's a lot of truth that the advent of the Sky money etc improved the standard of football because it had become dire. The seeds had been sewn before the European ban, with the influence of people like Charles Hughes as director of coaching at the FA ( a bloke who did extensive research & concluded most goals were scored from less than three passes) his disciples like Graeme Taylor & idiots like Swales in positions of power, happy to let them get on with it. The 'lump it down the channels & score from corners & free kicks' system took over.

The ban couldn't have come at a worse time really as their influence was allowed to grow & we still have remnants of that style today, In fact Villa are like an modern slightly more footballing version of teams from that era. Everton are another (although they're evolving tbf & pass a lot more now) & of course Stoke are still stuck firmly in those days. Having a bit of that style as an option is fine but to base your whole game on it like teams used to, it was really killing football & I hated it.

Did you watch/hear about last night's Blackburn v Arsenal match, Ted? It appears that the up and under Charles Hughes school has found its most enthusiastic and consistent disciple once again in Sam Allardyce. And this is a generation after Graham Taylor's successes in club management at Watford and Villa. So, yes, it lingers on still. Martin O'Neill has long been one of my bugbears. For years people banged on about him being a being a "great" manager, being a future England manager, and some - who presumably haven't checked out his D.O.B. - still refer to him as "promising", even though he's now 58. Yet, these so-called experts conveniently overlook the way he runs his teams into the ground with his ugly up-and-at-'em Allardyce-lite tactics, so that by the season's denouement they are out on their feet and falling short - as usual. Also, look at the money O'Neill has spent (lots of it) and on whom: James Milner is the epitome of an O'Neill player; works hard, gets up and down the pitch, not much in the way of frills. Please, Mancini, let's have no Milner at City unless it's as a flexible squad player. I'm happy to see that whomever has been in charge of City this season - Hughes or Mancini - we have played some delightful football, with the beautiful goal scored by Bellamy on Saturday being just the latest example.

[Ted Hughes]

There's a lot of truth that the advent of the Sky money etc improved the standard of football because it had become dire. The seeds had been sewn before the European ban, with the influence of people like Charles Hughes as director of coaching at the FA ( a bloke who did extensive research & concluded most goals were scored from less than three passes) his disciples like Graeme Taylor & idiots like Swales in positions of power, happy to let them get on with it. The 'lump it down the channels & score from corners & free kicks' system took over.

The ban couldn't have come at a worse time really as their influence was allowed to grow & we still have remnants of that style today, In fact Villa are like an modern slightly more footballing version of teams from that era. Everton are another (although they're evolving tbf & pass a lot more now) & of course Stoke are still stuck firmly in those days. Having a bit of that style as an option is fine but to base your whole game on it like teams used to, it was really killing football & I hated it.

Did you watch/hear about last night's Blackburn v Arsenal match, Ted? It appears that the up and under Charles Hughes school has found its most enthusiastic and consistent disciple once again in Sam Allardyce. And this is a generation after Graham Taylor's successes in club management at Watford and Villa. So, yes, it lingers on still. Martin O'Neill has long been one of my bugbears. For years people banged on about him being a being a "great" manager, being a future England manager, and some - who presumably haven't checked out his D.O.B. - still refer to him as "promising", even though he's now 58. Yet, these so-called experts conveniently overlook the way he runs his teams into the ground with his ugly up-and-at-'em Allardyce-lite tactics, so that by the season's denouement they are out on their feet and falling short - as usual. Also, look at the money O'Neill has spent (lots of it) and on whom: James Milner is the epitome of an O'Neill player; works hard, gets up and down the pitch, not much in the way of frills. Please, Mancini, let's have no Milner at City unless it's as a flexible squad player. I'm happy to see that whomever has been in charge of City this season - Hughes or Mancini - we have played some delightful football, with the beautiful goal scored by Bellamy on Saturday being just the latest example.

Yeah, of course I forgot to mention Sam in the list! I must admit it was funny watching that puny, pussy, Arsenal side crying & whinging about it though! (If only we'd attacked them last week like Blackburn & Wigan did).

I agree entirely about ONeil. Villa= Celtic= Leicester with more money, they're not as bad as Wimbledon or Stoke but they're much closer to Graeme Taylor's Villa or Watford teams than they are to the rags, Arsenal, Chelsea or indeed us under Mancini or Hughes.

There are similarities between Villa & Clough's successful Forest team on a 'backs to the wall' day. They would sit in their own half & whack the ball forward on those occasions but the difference is; they could also pass you to death. ONeil's team were outpassed by Birmingham. I don't know about Milner; I will reserve judgement 'till I see him in a better quality passing team.

I actually think a great side should be able to do both; use the best attributes of both Arsenal & Villa/Blackburn & if you watch the rags or Chelsea, they have that capability; they can pass, pass, pass, THEN suddenly lump the ball 40 yards & score when you're not expecting it! They must both score 5 times as many headers as we do, yet have a better passing ratio.