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Having read about Bobby's comments recently on attracting players and listening to what Bellemy had to say on receiving his performance of the season award, it set me thinking about the kind of players City really want..

The pretext is that we want to challenge for the title and go on into the CL as Champions. We would then expect to be seriously taking on teams such as Barca, Inter, Real, Chelsea at the highest level.. the level where those sorts of teams put in the most effort..

it isn't surprising that Barca are trying to offload Ibra.. they will never build the team around him and he just doesn't put the effort in game in game out to offer any confidence in playing him.. he is kind of 75% a waste of space if you like.

So City have the target of being at the level of Barca.. ok that will take some time for sure, but the key thing is setting up initially the attitude that will forge a team that each member is putting in a serious shift.
Fulham showed this year what can be done with mainly hard work and discipline and belief.

We have a core of players that have that attitude, ok we can debate the skill levels to some degree.. but believe me you could drop some of Barca's players into another team and they would not be as special, ( Yaya Toure for one ).

So with all the talk of attracting top players and them not considering City with no CL. My question is Wouldn't that lack of interest show in some ways that those players are not the ones we want anyway.. It is a bit like the classic situations where players have achieved it all and then cash in and don't perform? i say like cos it isn't quite the same we aren't trying to sign the Ronaldinho's. But if you get my drift.. isn't it better that we sign players that have yet to get there and really really want it.. developing together into the team that takes on the world and gets there...

Based on this i am really happy to be reading that we are in for Boateng ( 23 ) and Milner ( 24 ).. i would also think that Torres could fit into this category but only if he can see that coming to City is about building that dream.

Im thinking that in the long run it is better that we dont have CL this year because it means the players we attract will have a better attitude to City.. and that means we can build a better team spirit that will serve well in the long term as the bulk of the players will have gotten us there by their own graft and teamwork.

I dont think you can buy that kind of thing

Hmmm...not sure about that

Players are far more likely to come for the money now than if we were in the CL

At least the bigger names in football would have an excuse to come join the party (ie We all know it's all about money anyway...everything always is)

Now when they come there is a danger they will be classed as all before then have been classed

Mercenaries

Suppose it all depends whether they are arsed or not

I'd let you put a dress on me and call me Mary for £150,000 a week ;-)

I see where your coming from and i agree with you. Id like to see players with quality who are young and havent won anything yet and the manager can build a world class team.

let's not become the kind of fans that have to rationalize failure.

let's be brutally honest ... WE fucked up 4th. we had it in our grasp and we let it slip away, it was a failure. It was not a blessing in disguise. you know who the best players are? the ones who are motivated to win at the very very top. The type of players who will only come if you're in the chumps league. Just because you fail to get into the chumps league doest mean that you magically get a harder working type of player. Why would that be true? because they came even though we can't offer the top top football yet? seems like they'd be coming for money then.

Lets not start thinking like losers, because that's exactly where this thought process leads.

We should not be ok with missing out on 4th. But we pick ourselves up, we strengthen, we look at were we've gone wrong and where we can improve and we fucking bend the prem over and fuck it in the ass next season with all the might that 35 years of frustration will build up.

but let's not start being grateful for not making the chumps league.

kinkylola wrote:let's not become the kind of fans that have to rationalize failure.

let's be brutally honest ... WE fucked up 4th. we had it in our grasp and we let it slip away, it was a failure. It was not a blessing in disguise..

Tend to agree with this. Whenever you start thinking finishing second in anything is a good thing then you are doomed to repeat the experience.

Mind you finishing second this year would have been a great achievement but you know what I mean :)

BlueMoonAwoken wrote:I see where your coming from and i agree with you. Id like to see players with quality who are young and havent won anything yet and the manager can build a world class team.

We are so much better getting players that WANT to be here, not need to be here to further there own personal accolades.

Tevez, Barry, Lescott and Toure (like him or not) came here without the club even being in Europe, they wanted to be here, with aim for the future. Maybe Toure will not be here when we get to CL, but he has already advanced to Europa with City. Anyone who comes this year knows they are playing to get into the CL next year, and one would guess they are hungry for that.

On the other side Robinho came on a money grab. If we made CL, I assume he would be happy to play for the club (would we be happy??) If Torres were to come, and Gerrard for that matter, it would be for the right reasons I suspect and hope.

The thing is the majority of the good rumours, Boateng for example are younger players, and that is exactly what we want.

kinkylola wrote:let's not become the kind of fans that have to rationalize failure.

let's be brutally honest ... WE fucked up 4th. we had it in our grasp and we let it slip away, it was a failure. It was not a blessing in disguise. you know who the best players are? the ones who are motivated to win at the very very top. The type of players who will only come if you're in the chumps league. Just because you fail to get into the chumps league doest mean that you magically get a harder working type of player. Why would that be true? because they came even though we can't offer the top top football yet? seems like they'd be coming for money then.

Lets not start thinking like losers, because that's exactly where this thought process leads.

We should not be ok with missing out on 4th. But we pick ourselves up, we strengthen, we look at were we've gone wrong and where we can improve and we fucking bend the prem over and fuck it in the ass next season with all the might that 35 years of frustration will build up.

but let's not start being grateful for not making the chumps league.

I think you are missing the point if you think it is an excuse.

My point is that players that want to take us to the CL and the Title are still going to want to come. Those that would come BECAUSE we have CL football and only because, MIGHT not be the right kind of players to build a kind of dynasty..

So yes in your way of putting it i am starting to see that i am grateful that we didnt get into the Chumps because in the longer term i think we are going to benefit from it.. both from signings this year and the steadier build that the team will get. id go as far as to say that over the next two seasons we will be better in two years than we would have been going into the Chumps this year and dealing with that. I can take my disappointment at not grabbing 4th and see a bigger, slightly longer term picture of more stability and steady progress as a result.

sorry if you dont like that, but that is what i see.

brite blu sky wrote:it isn't surprising that Barca are trying to offload Ibra.. they will never build the team around him and he just doesn't put the effort in game in game out to offer any confidence in playing him.. he is kind of 75% a waste of space if you like.

Ibrahimovic always seems to be scoring Goals, though. I'd welcome any personality problem if it meant he was putting the ball in the back of the net around 25 times a season. Adebayor isn't a tremendously hard worker when compared to other Strikers - but if one trick or flick makes a win instead of a draw then I ain't complaining.

Torres is Pie in the Sky if we can't offer him Champions League Football. He's going to be the most courted Player all Summer with League Champions throwing money at him to come to their Club.

so why are Barca desperately trying to get rid of him.. tell me that?

brite blu sky wrote:Having read about Bobby's comments recently on attracting players and listening to what Bellemy had to say on receiving his performance of the season award, it set me thinking about the kind of players City really want..

The pretext is that we want to challenge for the title and go on into the CL as Champions. We would then expect to be seriously taking on teams such as Barca, Inter, Real, Chelsea at the highest level.. the level where those sorts of teams put in the most effort..

it isn't surprising that Barca are trying to offload Ibra.. they will never build the team around him and he just doesn't put the effort in game in game out to offer any confidence in playing him.. he is kind of 75% a waste of space if you like.

So City have the target of being at the level of Barca.. ok that will take some time for sure, but the key thing is setting up initially the attitude that will forge a team that each member is putting in a serious shift.
Fulham showed this year what can be done with mainly hard work and discipline and belief.

We have a core of players that have that attitude, ok we can debate the skill levels to some degree.. but believe me you could drop some of Barca's players into another team and they would not be as special, ( Yaya Toure for one ).

So with all the talk of attracting top players and them not considering City with no CL. My question is Wouldn't that lack of interest show in some ways that those players are not the ones we want anyway.. It is a bit like the classic situations where players have achieved it all and then cash in and don't perform? i say like cos it isn't quite the same we aren't trying to sign the Ronaldinho's. But if you get my drift.. isn't it better that we sign players that have yet to get there and really really want it.. developing together into the team that takes on the world and gets there...

Based on this i am really happy to be reading that we are in for Boateng ( 23 ) and Milner ( 24 ).. i would also think that Torres could fit into this category but only if he can see that coming to City is about building that dream.

Im thinking that in the long run it is better that we dont have CL this year because it means the players we attract will have a better attitude to City.. and that means we can build a better team spirit that will serve well in the long term as the bulk of the players will have gotten us there by their own graft and teamwork.

I dont think you can buy that kind of thing

I agree mate but if you believe the rumours its still the big names are guys want: Ibra, Gerrard, Kaka and not the bellamys and neds who will get pushed out.

I think it is a real posibility that we could sign Ibra.

not trying to be insulting to OP, just expressing my opinion. If you aim for 4th and you get 5th, accept that you failed to reach goals and buck up and gear up for the next go.

I mean, basically your position is flawed. Just because a player is supremely skilled doesn't mean that he does everything for the money, or some other "selfish" reason (i would argue that bellamy's motivation is entirely selfish. He doesn't give a shit what other people think, he goes out and he gives 150% for himself ... and i'm almost positive he has said as much in interviews), and just because a player isn't considered "top top" doesn't mean he will come to a club (or "project") and be 100% dedicated, willing to give everything for the club and have no personal agenda what so ever. It's just not realistic.

Top players are top players because they win. That's how you get to be the top. So, i'm sorry I can't agree that missing out on those players is a blessing ... but you are certainly entitled to your opinion and I didn't mean to imply otherwise.

brite blu sky wrote:Having read about Bobby's comments recently on attracting players and listening to what Bellemy had to say on receiving his performance of the season award, it set me thinking about the kind of players City really want..

The pretext is that we want to challenge for the title and go on into the CL as Champions. We would then expect to be seriously taking on teams such as Barca, Inter, Real, Chelsea at the highest level.. the level where those sorts of teams put in the most effort..

it isn't surprising that Barca are trying to offload Ibra.. they will never build the team around him and he just doesn't put the effort in game in game out to offer any confidence in playing him.. he is kind of 75% a waste of space if you like.

So City have the target of being at the level of Barca.. ok that will take some time for sure, but the key thing is setting up initially the attitude that will forge a team that each member is putting in a serious shift.
Fulham showed this year what can be done with mainly hard work and discipline and belief.

We have a core of players that have that attitude, ok we can debate the skill levels to some degree.. but believe me you could drop some of Barca's players into another team and they would not be as special, ( Yaya Toure for one ).

So with all the talk of attracting top players and them not considering City with no CL. My question is Wouldn't that lack of interest show in some ways that those players are not the ones we want anyway.. It is a bit like the classic situations where players have achieved it all and then cash in and don't perform? i say like cos it isn't quite the same we aren't trying to sign the Ronaldinho's. But if you get my drift.. isn't it better that we sign players that have yet to get there and really really want it.. developing together into the team that takes on the world and gets there...

Based on this i am really happy to be reading that we are in for Boateng ( 23 ) and Milner ( 24 ).. i would also think that Torres could fit into this category but only if he can see that coming to City is about building that dream.

Im thinking that in the long run it is better that we dont have CL this year because it means the players we attract will have a better attitude to City.. and that means we can build a better team spirit that will serve well in the long term as the bulk of the players will have gotten us there by their own graft and teamwork.

I dont think you can buy that kind of thing

I'd agree that I think us not having CL football next year is not such a trajedy, but not for the reasons you give, the attitude of players.
I think our lack of experience in such competitions would lead to our undoing very quickly and Bobby has shown with his Inter side he is not quie there yet and I think he needs more experience aswell so for me the Europa will be an excellent competition for us to learn and cut our teeth.
The theory that players who dont wear their heart on their sleeves and run around like madmen(headless chickens) arnt putting a shift in is not one I subscribe to.
I'm sure that when all players cross the white line they wish to perform the best they can.
I dont accept that they cant be arsed.The level of their performance may have differing results from game to game but nontheless I dont think professional footballers play the game for any other reason than to give their best.

brite blu sky wrote:so why are Barca desperately trying to get rid of him.. tell me that?

The alleged personality problem I've already mentioned?! Try reading something before unleashing a kneejerk reaction.

You certainly don't become the best by being scared to face the best. I have tried to see logic in the OP but cannot get past the fact that certain City fans are fucking morbidly afraid of success.

btajim wrote:

brite blu sky wrote:so why are Barca desperately trying to get rid of him.. tell me that?

The alleged personality problem I've already mentioned?! Try reading something before unleashing a kneejerk reaction.

sorry bta i dont understand how you see that as a knee jerk.. im not talking about his supposed personality.. if anything im talking about his inconsistency and weaknesses in working for the team.. i think it is valid to ask the question of why Barca are so keen to get shut. i would argue they should at least give him another season to try and be more of what they want.. but the fans here and the club dont seem willing to show that patience.

Im not going to have an argument with someone based on the fact they like Ibra for whatever reason.. if you like him you like him, i dont dislike him i just think he isn't the player for City for reasons i have tried to point out, that doesn't even mean he may be like a fish in water in the Prem.. i dont know anymore than anyone else on that, but my gut feeling is he isnt right and shows all the classic signs of not being the type of player to be a success in the Prem.

I dont agree. I liken it to thinking its ok being relegated because we can have a clear out and bring in some new talent and get promoted, and come back stronger. We tried that and ended up getting relegated again.

You take whatever you can whenever you can in this league. If we had got 4th this season, then CL football next season could have been seen as a pratice, making the group stages would have been a success, anything else a big bonus.

Yet we'll have to wait another season to have that mindset.

Personally I think we should win the UEFA cup next season, give it our close attention, make a mark on Europe ready for CL the season after next.

Slim wrote:You certainly don't become the best by being scared to face the best. I have tried to see logic in the OP but cannot get past the fact that certain City fans are fucking morbidly afraid of success.

Abu Dhabi puts it another way in the Torres thread..

Re: Where would Torres fit?.
gillie wrote:
Abu Dhabi wrote:
From all , you reckon he'll end up at spuds? WoW!

Yep coz he wont fit anywhere but us and Spuds and they have the barganing chip.


Surely he'll take 3 years of CL after a year without CL, rather than the other way round?

ok that is implying that Spurs will suffer in the Prem perhaps as a result of a CL campaign.

While that is not my point about City, it relates to it as i suggest in the OP that not having CL allows us to build in my view more solidity and team spirit in the longer term.

I am all for jumping in the deep end in my own life, but when it comes to teams, teamwork and football there is, again in my opinion good reason to get the foundations right and look to the longer term. I know football is fickle, but we all make it so ourselves.. the whole culture.
I am simply saying that i am happy enough to forgo the quick fix of success IF it meant that we get the basis of a what eventually amounts to a dynasty in football terms.
I expect us to be trying to lead the pack next season, and i would like City to go into the CL as the English Champions, i dont see how that expectation is shy of success.

Anyway thats my logic and i am sticking to it ( for now ).

( We still need a key player (s) in the centre of the park.. and that cant just be anyone.. they will need to be one of the key players of the squad.. that might mean we have to try a few players till we get the right one(s).. we might have to take a few gambles on players that dont pay off, it might take a few transfer windows to really sort it out.. it could take time ).