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I've been in two minds about the pre season so far. I think we were getting better as the players were gaining fitness out in America, until we played Milan where I thought we were poor. Obviously though it IS pre season so results dont matter. My concern and question though is about the team and players attitudes. I'm a little worried about how the moral is going to be at the start of the season as we are cutting it fine having to ship players out in such a short time. My guess is that at the moment half the squad don't know if they're going to be about or not. Surly by this stage we want a squad that knows its going to be together and will be working on on the field relationships and tactics. I was a bit worried about Kompanys attitude during the last game, plus Ireland didn't smile once in America. Hart sounds like he could take it or leave it and Onuaha has been making noises too. I just hope that the majority of the squad isnt like this but thats the feeling I've been getting from watching the games and interviews.
The other thing is what should we expect next season, is Mancini going to set out to play to players strengths or will he try to fit players around his tactics and expect them to change the way they play naturally?

I reckon only Bobby knows the answers to your questions but i know what your getting at.I think most of the prem squad of 25 already have been told thier in as for the rest well its anyones guess.

gillie wrote:I reckon only Bobby knows the answers to your questions but i know what your getting at.I think most of the prem squad of 25 already have been told thier in as for the rest well its anyones guess.

Yeah I hope so!.. I guess we'll find out a little more during the Germany trip.

Lee, no need to worry at all, the players you mention for starters are'nt going to be missed if they do go and Bobby knows what sort of system he wants to play. We have bought quality this pre-season and not the likes of what we have seen before.

I would love to see us win everything with manchester born players, but it aint going to happen. So the likes of Hart, Ireland, Ned and whoever who want out, let them go because they will never have a better chance anywhere else to win things

I personally don't think this 25 ruling is much of an issue or that players are fretting about who will be named. With Garrido going I think we are around 6 over the limit and of these 6 you have players like Ehutu, Big Phil, Logan who are likely to be loaned/sold. I can't see Robinho featuring and if Balotelli signs then RSC is likely to be out which helps as Balotelli is under 21 and doesn't count. Michael Johnson won't be fit so he won't get named and so on. Similarly this fretting over Vieira getting in the 25 squad and 'depriving' a better player of a spot is odd as it has to be asked just who is this mythical player exactly?

The 25 is fairly easy to work out and I am sure the players can do the maths as well as anyone. Getting in the first team itself is going to be of concern which is why Mancini keeps banging on about a squad approach with no real first XI which is nice in theory but I have my doubts on whether some players are buying it. Still worth a shot I guess.

I was hoping to see real planning & shape like we've never seen before after hearing about how methodical Mancini was. That was very evident in the 1st game as we moved seamlessly through 3 systems & everyone knew their job. I was delighted with it & expected that to continue & improve so we'd have a tight unit for the new players to join, making their integration easier.

Instead, it's become a mess & you can see the players aren't happy, both on the pitch & on the bench, they look tense & in some cases even pissed off. It's not how other club's players look at this stage in comparison. as a unit we're disorganised at the back, toothless up front & passing badly in midfield. This from players, most of whom have played a whole season together.

The US tour has been wasted by too much fucking about & we now need to get back to the kind of planning we saw at the very start of it. We really had an opportunity there to use the time to great effect & gain an advantage. We blew it.

Ted Hughes wrote:I was hoping to see real planning & shape like we've never seen before after hearing about how methodical Mancini was. That was very evident in the 1st game as we moved seamlessly through 3 systems & everyone knew their job. I was delighted with it & expected that to continue & improve so we'd have a tight unit for the new players to join, making their integration easier.

Instead, it's become a mess & you can see the players aren't happy, both on the pitch & on the bench, they look tense & in some cases even pissed off. It's not how other club's players look at this stage in comparison. as a unit we're disorganised at the back, toothless up front & passing badly in midfield. This from players, most of whom have played a whole season together.

The US tour has been wasted by too much fucking about & we now need to get back to the kind of planning we saw at the very start of it. We really had an opportunity there to use the time to great effect & gain an advantage. We blew it.

Oh dear, I guess your glass runneth half empty at the moment - makes me glad I only saw the inter game which was a defensive shambles of epic proportions.

How much of that we can attribute to Platt & Kidd I dont know, but I have to admit I am now EXTREMELY worried about our defensive organisation.

The "not played together " card cannot be played for the centre halves Toure & Lescott whom have all had at least 10-15 competetive games as a partnership last year, and were frankly, pale imitations of premier league/international class defensive partnership. Add to that Kompany who covered Toure reasonably well and led the defence in the 2nd half of the season, and I cannot understand why we are still so bad at the back when they have played plenty of games together.

People talk about pre-season as thought players have forgotten how to play football in the intervening period from May. Bullshit that, they all played under Mancini last year and all know what he expects and what the system is - which is why I can't see Mancini's absence against Inter being the problem. Ultimately, whilst the defence was a little better, there were many games where Toure/Kompany's attention span and ability to do the simple things caused us to lose badly (Everton x2, Stoke, etc etc), just as Lescott & Toure did many times under Hughes.

I'm starting to think that unfortunately the conclusion we will draw by xmas is to move Toure and/or Lescott on and start again. Thats not a knee jerk reaction, it is a considered opinion from having seen no real semblance of a defensive partnership form in over a season with those players.

Unfortunately it runs deeper than defence, in that the midfield spectacularly failed to do their job in either an attacking or defensive sense vs Inter, so it would appear that after all this time, still, none of the players have got a clue what their role is.

"none of the players have got a clue what their role is."

Now that would be a concern

Douglas Higginbottom wrote:"none of the players have got a clue what their role is."

Now that would be a concern

Off the top of my head.......

Adebayor roaming to the wing leaving nobody in the middle, because the wingers we do have cant/dont supply him. He is doing what Rooney did for United for years, until last year when Fergie told him to stand on the penalty spot and he would get service. Rooney had the most prolific season of his career. Ade is going looking for it just the same way Rooney did out of frustration.

Wingers playing on the wrong wing to curl crosses in, for nobody because Adebayor is on the other wing and Tevez is a midget, or has not made it into the box as he has just layed the ball off from deep to the winger.

Defenderswho are all in a perpetual state of panic becuase they are either not being protected by the midfield, or dont know what person has responsibility for picking up what player.

Maybe it will improve with the arrival of Toure and Silva, but parachuting better players into an incomprehensible and alien system to the Premietr League is not going to fix the problems, if it turns out that Mancini's system is the problem.

johnpb78 wrote:

Douglas Higginbottom wrote:"none of the players have got a clue what their role is."

Now that would be a concern

Off the top of my head.......

Adebayor roaming to the wing leaving nobody in the middle, because the wingers we do have cant/dont supply him. He is doing what Rooney did for U***d for years, until last year when Fergie told him to stand on the penalty spot and he would get service. Rooney had the most prolific season of his career. Ade is going looking for it just the same way Rooney did out of frustration.

Wingers playing on the wrong wing to curl crosses in, for nobody because Adebayor is on the other wing and Tevez is a midget, or has not made it into the box as he has just layed the ball off from deep to the winger.

Defenderswho are all in a perpetual state of panic becuase they are either not being protected by the midfield, or dont know what person has responsibility for picking up what player.

Maybe it will improve with the arrival of Toure and Silva, but parachuting better players into an incomprehensible and alien system to the Premietr League is not going to fix the problems, if it turns out that Mancini's system is the problem.

I didn't say I disagreed with you but merely that if the players haven't got a clue yet re their role we have major problems.There were signs late last season against better teams that the "system" , whatever it was, wasn't very effective but surely we can expect, with better players and more time working on it things would be better now.I don't take ( or I am trying hard not to) Inter Milan as indicative of where the team stands. If I did I would really fear for the season but that was just a preparation training game with half the team missing.

I have to say I am not at all convinced but I have to believe.

Douglas Higginbottom wrote:

johnpb78 wrote:

Douglas Higginbottom wrote:"none of the players have got a clue what their role is."

Now that would be a concern

Off the top of my head.......

Adebayor roaming to the wing leaving nobody in the middle, because the wingers we do have cant/dont supply him. He is doing what Rooney did for U***d for years, until last year when Fergie told him to stand on the penalty spot and he would get service. Rooney had the most prolific season of his career. Ade is going looking for it just the same way Rooney did out of frustration.

Wingers playing on the wrong wing to curl crosses in, for nobody because Adebayor is on the other wing and Tevez is a midget, or has not made it into the box as he has just layed the ball off from deep to the winger.

Defenderswho are all in a perpetual state of panic becuase they are either not being protected by the midfield, or dont know what person has responsibility for picking up what player.

Maybe it will improve with the arrival of Toure and Silva, but parachuting better players into an incomprehensible and alien system to the Premietr League is not going to fix the problems, if it turns out that Mancini's system is the problem.

I didn't say I disagreed with you but merely that if the players haven't got a clue yet re their role we have major problems.There were signs late last season against better teams that the "system" , whatever it was, wasn't very effective but surely we can expect, with better players and more time working on it things would be better now.I don't take ( or I am trying hard not to) Inter Milan as indicative of where the team stands. If I did I would really fear for the season but that was just a preparation training game with half the team missing.

I have to say I am not at all convinced but I have to believe.

I have pretty much the same view as you, in that we played a decent side with a 2nd string defence. A defeat wasnt the end of the world, but the very fact that we didnt test their keeper or make any attempt to win, just as we apparently didnt against Sporting shows that either the sum of all the parts still isnt working, or that the players still dont understand how it all works.

Ultimately, the acid test will come in our first 2 games. Last season we made no attempt to win against either Liverpool or Tottenham under Mancini, and if that happens again with Toure and Silva in the side, I just dont know where we go from there.

I have to hope that wont happen, and that Bobby has something up his sleeve, but if he had something up his sleeve different to the utter garbage we saw from him last year in the big games, I would have hoped to have been seeing some of it by now in terms of a shake up of the system, or players knowing their place in the system lots better.

johnpb78 wrote:

Douglas Higginbottom wrote:"none of the players have got a clue what their role is."

Now that would be a concern

Off the top of my head.......

Adebayor roaming to the wing leaving nobody in the middle, because the wingers we do have cant/dont supply him. He is doing what Rooney did for U***d for years, until last year when Fergie told him to stand on the penalty spot and he would get service. Rooney had the most prolific season of his career. Ade is going looking for it just the same way Rooney did out of frustration..

Are you saying that Taggart took several seasons before getting round to telling Rooney to er stand on the penalty spot or to be accurate took several seasons to notice that Rooney was wandering all over the park before having his 'eureka' moment and going 'You know what Wayne lad how about we just stand still this season?'

I will go out on a limb here and say that Rooney roamed far and wide because he was told to. Equally he now plays more centrally because (again) he was told to. Fake Ron moving on was the key to both decisions.

BobKowalski wrote:

johnpb78 wrote:

Douglas Higginbottom wrote:"none of the players have got a clue what their role is."

Now that would be a concern

Off the top of my head.......

Adebayor roaming to the wing leaving nobody in the middle, because the wingers we do have cant/dont supply him. He is doing what Rooney did for U***d for years, until last year when Fergie told him to stand on the penalty spot and he would get service. Rooney had the most prolific season of his career. Ade is going looking for it just the same way Rooney did out of frustration..

Are you saying that Taggart took several seasons before getting round to telling Rooney to er stand on the penalty spot or to be accurate took several seasons to notice that Rooney was wandering all over the park before having his 'eureka' moment and going 'You know what Wayne lad how about we just stand still this season?'

I will go out on a limb here and say that Rooney roamed far and wide because he was told to. Equally he now plays more centrally because (again) he was told to. Fake Ron moving on was the key to both decisions.

He only EVER dropped back like that when he was getting frustrated, generally when United were losing and he hadnt seen the ball for a while - which is identical to what we have seen with Adebayor. However if you feel that is instructions, fair enough, however......

By the same token, if you feel Adebayor is being told to be out on the wing foraging for posession, whilst Tevez is behind the play having just passed it to the left winger, How does Mancini see us getting the ball in the net with a top quality back 4 lined up against er, nobody?

This is what is happening against better teams, and why as a result we seem to end up making no attempt to attack, as the target-man forward is somewhere else on the pitch having been trying to do the midfield's job for them.

I don't like to think too much of what the scum do or have done but I seem to recall that with Rooney playing "wider" they won the league more than once and with him "in the middle" they came second. Tranny and Tevez might have been a part of that scenario but whatever/whoever they played they looked like a good side.

Blimey I hope we dont lose a (very difficult) first game at Spuds or some will be reaching for the revolver to the head!

Good results in the first 2 games will be the ultimate proof that pre season games mean diddly.

john@staustell wrote:Blimey I hope we dont lose a (very difficult) first game at Spuds or some will be reaching for the revolver to the head!

it could be quite quiet round here if things dont go too well..

brite blu sky wrote:

john@staustell wrote:Blimey I hope we dont lose a (very difficult) first game at Spuds or some will be reaching for the revolver to the head!

it could be quite quiet round here if things dont go too well..

It will be mayhem. People will be imploding all over the place. I've already gone into a girly funk over the opening game which I am now convinced we will lose albeit purely in the hope that the fickle handmaidens of fate will look to spite me and usher City to a handsome win. I have been employing this strategy for decades and so far the fickle handmaidens of fate have been decidedly lacklustre however I have also placed a a £10 bet that the first 'Mancini out' post will appear in the 54th minute of the Spurs game. If that doesn't get those damn maidens working overtime nothing will.

Douglas Higginbottom wrote:I don't like to think too much of what the scum do or have done but I seem to recall that with Rooney playing "wider" they won the league more than once and with him "in the middle" they came second. Tranny and Tevez might have been a part of that scenario but whatever/whoever they played they looked like a good side.

The fact that United finished 2nd this year, is that Rooney's emergence as a more mature striker was not sufficient to compensate for the trannys goals, not because Rooney was a better in a free role all over the pitch than a forward.

There's a fine balance to be had with forwards who drift wide. Sometimes they need to be reminded to get back in the box but coming to the ball is what they're good at and where they're at their most dangerous. You don't want to take away that aspect of their game, just for them to be better at knowing when to get into the box.

There are aspects to our system that haven't been functioning that well. Ireland scored 2 goals last year in 16 starts. If you create space, someone has to go into it. So far as I can see, what's worrying me is that sometimes we're taking too much off the ball when we pass it. If you're trying to put a fullback into space you usually want to put the ball ahead of him rather than kick it to him so the defence can cover while he's waiting for the ball. It's taking the urgency out of our buildup play. We only seem to really move when we're breaking.

But I think it's something that's coming. I thought we were doing better against Inter until Vieira went off, after that we didn't give a shit.