Colin Bell for England question.

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Colin Bell for England question.

Postby shawzy » Fri Sep 03, 2010 4:20 pm

[youtube]e3FfdgaBomk[/youtube]

Genius our Colin was.

Iv been looking at his England vids on youtube and spotted a post from a spuds fan. Im a little too young to understand what he means so can one of you guys clear things up for me?
Many thanks.

Heres the post

A much underrated player, who had the misfortune to enter the England team at the end of an era, and to be eligible for the national team during the years of the Revie muddle.

Belle should have won more international honours and many more caps for his country.


- a Spurs supporter
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Re: Colin Bell for England question.

Postby Kladze » Fri Sep 03, 2010 4:41 pm

Bell was arguably the best all round English midfielder I've ever seen. He did have the dubious pleasure of playing under Revie, whose tenure as England manager was an unmitigated disaster, culminating in him deserting a sunken ship and taking a job in the middle east.

Bell also, as I'm sure you're aware, suffered a cruciate ligament injury playing against United in a league cup tie in 1976. The injury was virtually a career ender.

Hope that's the info you need. :-)
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Re: Colin Bell for England question.

Postby shawzy » Fri Sep 03, 2010 4:52 pm

Kladze wrote:Bell was arguably the best all round English midfielder I've ever seen. He did have the dubious pleasure of playing under Revie, whose tenure as England manager was an unmitigated disaster, culminating in him deserting a sunken ship and taking a job in the middle east.

Bell also, as I'm sure you're aware, suffered a cruciate ligament injury playing against United in a league cup tie in 1976. The injury was virtually a career ender.

Hope that's the info you need. :-)


Oh so Revie basically fooked up the team when he took over.
Thanks for wiseing me up Kladze.

Who would you say is a modern day Colin Bell?
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Re: Colin Bell for England question.

Postby Kladze » Fri Sep 03, 2010 4:55 pm

I should also add that a 'goals video' barely does him any justice at all.

He was known for his seemingly endless athleticism and stamina - nicknamed Nijinsky (after the horse not the ballet dancer ;-)

It was a constant source of amazement how often he would make a last ditch clearance in his own penalty area only to 'appear' again 10/15 seconds later to score or create a goal/chance at the other end.

He could do everything well. Run; shoot; dribble; tackle; defend; attack, and was good in the air too.
In many ways he was the prototype box to box midfield player.

I once had a conversation with Joe Corrigan during the build up to a City v Leeds United game. Leeds at the time had a player called Peter Lorimer who was 'famed' for a very powerful shot - nicknamed 'Hot shot Lorimer'.
I asked Joe if he was looking forward to facing him and he replied "I face Colin Bell every day in training so why should I worry? His shot is just as powerful".

Bell's injury, imo, cost City a few championship titles :-(
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Re: Colin Bell for England question.

Postby Kladze » Fri Sep 03, 2010 4:57 pm

shawzy wrote:

Who would you say is a modern day Colin Bell?


I'm hard pressed to think of any really to be honest mate. Gerrard is probably closest.
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Re: Colin Bell for England question.

Postby shawzy » Fri Sep 03, 2010 5:06 pm

Kladze wrote:
shawzy wrote:

Who would you say is a modern day Colin Bell?


I'm hard pressed to think of any really to be honest mate. Gerrard is probably closest.


Thanks for the info on your 2nd post.Enjoyed reading that :-)
Yes a few on youtube are comparing Stevie G and Lamps to Colin.

Wonder which City player could be our best box to box since Bell.......Milner maybe!
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Re: Colin Bell for England question.

Postby Blue2 » Fri Sep 03, 2010 5:10 pm

I still reckon ( a biased view no doubt) he is THE best player I have ever seen.
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Re: Colin Bell for England question.

Postby Kladze » Fri Sep 03, 2010 5:23 pm

Blue2 wrote:I still reckon ( a biased view no doubt) he is THE best player I have ever seen.


lol
Probably a touch OTT there blue. The best of his kind maybe.

Shawzy ...... Gerrard and Lampard don't know how to defend.
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Re: Colin Bell for England question.

Postby Douglas Higginbottom » Fri Sep 03, 2010 5:25 pm

Blue2 wrote:I still reckon ( a biased view no doubt) he is THE best player I have ever seen.


Interesting .I would never have had him as the best player I have seen but I would say he would be first on my team sheet. I didn't see him as a great tackler, dribbler or header of a ball but it was all about his energy, his intelligence. He did so much simply and effectively and must have been a joy to play with because he was almost always available.If you hoped somebody would be on the end of a sweeping move he was there and as has already been said he regularly was at the back breaking up attacks.

I loved watching him score goals in his own style and with a calmness which often belied their importance.It was amazing how controlled his celebrations were when he scored and he scored plenty.
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Re: Colin Bell for England question.

Postby Dronny » Fri Sep 03, 2010 5:32 pm

I think he may just be over the hill but I reckon he could still do a job for England
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Re: Colin Bell for England question.

Postby Blue2 » Fri Sep 03, 2010 7:06 pm

Douglas Higginbottom wrote:
Blue2 wrote:I still reckon ( a biased view no doubt) he is THE best player I have ever seen.


Interesting .I would never have had him as the best player I have seen but I would say he would be first on my team sheet. I didn't see him as a great tackler, dribbler or header of a ball but it was all about his energy, his intelligence. He did so much simply and effectively and must have been a joy to play with because he was almost always available.If you hoped somebody would be on the end of a sweeping move he was there and as has already been said he regularly was at the back breaking up attacks.

I loved watching him score goals in his own style and with a calmness which often belied their importance.It was amazing how controlled his celebrations were when he scored and he scored plenty.



Doug, i always thought of him as an excellent header of the ball and a good taclker as well, but agree dribbling was not his forte, but you can't have everything.
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Re: Colin Bell for England question.

Postby Douglas Higginbottom » Fri Sep 03, 2010 8:58 pm

Blue2 wrote:
Douglas Higginbottom wrote:
Blue2 wrote:I still reckon ( a biased view no doubt) he is THE best player I have ever seen.


Interesting .I would never have had him as the best player I have seen but I would say he would be first on my team sheet. I didn't see him as a great tackler, dribbler or header of a ball but it was all about his energy, his intelligence. He did so much simply and effectively and must have been a joy to play with because he was almost always available.If you hoped somebody would be on the end of a sweeping move he was there and as has already been said he regularly was at the back breaking up attacks.

I loved watching him score goals in his own style and with a calmness which often belied their importance.It was amazing how controlled his celebrations were when he scored and he scored plenty.



Doug, i always thought of him as an excellent header of the ball and a good taclker as well, but agree dribbling was not his forte, but you can't have everything.


No doubt he used to make key headers when they mattered to score goals and in defence and he made some fantastic slide tackles in particular. I'm doing the Malcolm Allison about playing down his attributes in front of others just before we bought him. He was simply awesome to have in the team.
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Re: Colin Bell for England question.

Postby the_georgian_genius » Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:30 pm

Genuine question - Why isn't he remembered like the rest of the top players in the 60's and 70's if he was a fantastic player? Was he a player you had to see regulary to value his talent?
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Re: Colin Bell for England question.

Postby brite blu sky » Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:10 am

intelligence, class, calmness.. and making it look easy.. almost out of his era.. and in that sense there is no modern player that is comparable at least not in england. It is oh so easy to be nostalgic.. but he was really ahead of his time.

MJ has been compared to Colin Bell, but really that is so far just on a a stylistic comparison.. laid back and languid.. which tbh you can only do with a certain degree of awareness. after that though all comparisons end.
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Re: Colin Bell for England question.

Postby Kladze » Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:22 am

the_georgian_genius wrote:Genuine question - Why isn't he remembered like the rest of the top players in the 60's and 70's if he was a fantastic player?


I'm not really sure what you mean. He is remembered among the greats of his era.
If you mean is he remembered as a flair player a la Marsh, Best, Law etc then no - he wasn't a flair player.

the_georgian_genius wrote:Was he a player you had to see regulary to value his talent?


I first saw him playing for Bury. Only saw him two or three times and it was obvious that, though raw, he was a great talent.
City paid £40,000 for him, a big fee then (especially for a struggling 2nd division team) and big Malcolm (Allison) went to work on him, to turn him pretty quickly into the great finished product that we remember.
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Re: Colin Bell for England question.

Postby the_georgian_genius » Sat Sep 04, 2010 1:49 am

Kladze wrote:
the_georgian_genius wrote:Genuine question - Why isn't he remembered like the rest of the top players in the 60's and 70's if he was a fantastic player?


I'm not really sure what you mean. He is remembered among the greats of his era.
If you mean is he remembered as a flair player a la Marsh, Best, Law etc then no - he wasn't a flair player.


It's just when you watch shows or video's about football in the 60's and 70's he is hardly mentioned. You have the likes of Best, Charlton, Law, Brady, Moore, Greaves, Dalglish who if you were to mention those names to the kids of today, the majority would know who they are because of how they are portrayed in the media and by fans today. Yet if you asked kids who Colin Bell was i think the majority of them would answer he was the inventor of the telephone!

Was he like Paul Scholes? In that he was a world class footballer who shunned the media and craved the private life and is not known as the wonderfull footballers they are because of it?
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Re: Colin Bell for England question.

Postby the_georgian_genius » Sat Sep 04, 2010 1:51 am

brite blu sky wrote:intelligence, class, calmness.. and making it look easy.. almost out of his era.. and in that sense there is no modern player that is comparable at least not in england. It is oh so easy to be nostalgic.. but he was really ahead of his time.

MJ has been compared to Colin Bell, but really that is so far just on a a stylistic comparison.. laid back and languid.. which tbh you can only do with a certain degree of awareness. after that though all comparisons end.


I think Paul Scholes has all those attributes you mentioned.
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Re: Colin Bell for England question.

Postby Kladze » Sat Sep 04, 2010 2:18 am

the_georgian_genius wrote:
Kladze wrote:
the_georgian_genius wrote:Genuine question - Why isn't he remembered like the rest of the top players in the 60's and 70's if he was a fantastic player?


I'm not really sure what you mean. He is remembered among the greats of his era.
If you mean is he remembered as a flair player a la Marsh, Best, Law etc then no - he wasn't a flair player.


It's just when you watch shows or video's about football in the 60's and 70's he is hardly mentioned. You have the likes of Best, Charlton, Law, Brady, Moore, Greaves, Dalglish who if you were to mention those names to the kids of today, the majority would know who they are because of how they are portrayed in the media and by fans today. Yet if you asked kids who Colin Bell was i think the majority of them would answer he was the inventor of the telephone!

Was he like Paul Scholes? In that he was a world class footballer who shunned the media and craved the private life and is not known as the wonderfull footballers they are because of it?


Yes Bell was painfully shy actually and actively avoided any public attention other than on the field of play.
As for his standing with the other players you mentioned, you need to bear a few things in mind. In 1970, under Ramsey, Bell fulfilled only a substitute role during the Mexico world cup - this despite the fact that most football pundits (and the pundits were experts in those days) had assumed that he would play a major part in the team's attempt to retain the trophy. Ramsey never seemed able to grasp the implications of when to use substitutes tactically either. Then in the quarter final against Germany, with England leading 2-0 the Germans pulled one back. Bobby Charlton was tiring badly in the heat and extreme altitude and Ramsey took him off to be replaced by Bell. Franz Beckenbauer, who had been man marking Charlton, was suddenly released from that responsibility and led the Germans to one of their famous recoveries as they won the game 3-2.
The Charlton substitution was widely perceived to be a huge tactical blunder by Ramsey and , by implication, Bell was somehow responsible too.

Then in the qualifying rounds for the 1974 European Nations Championship England, under the chaotic reign of Revie failed to qualify. So Bell, at the peak of his career, was again denied the international acclaim he deserved. Add to the above the fact that City didn't have so much European success as they perhaps ought to have done on a more consistent basis, and yet another avenue for his talents was , at least partially, closed off.

Bell also suffered somewhat from poor timing, coming into the England international set up which already boasted midfielders the like of Charlton, Ball, Peters playing in Bell's preferred position.

In spite of all that Bell was voted the 25th (?) most important player in England's history ............... we older City fans know better ;-)


By the way, I find the comparison with Paul Scholes laughable. Scholes is an excellent player but ............
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Re: Colin Bell for England question.

Postby the_georgian_genius » Sat Sep 04, 2010 3:49 am

Kladze wrote:By the way, I find the comparison with Paul Scholes laughable. Scholes is an excellent player but ............


Not sure why it is laughable? Two world class players who don't get the acclaim they deserved because they are quiet private people.

Scholes is the greatest player the rags have ever had IMO.
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Re: Colin Bell for England question.

Postby Ted Hughes » Sat Sep 04, 2010 4:14 am

Speaking as someone who thought Bell was the best player I ever saw & also someone who's pissed out of their tiny mind, I've enjoyed reading this thread & found the questions & pros & cons etc interesting. I'm surprised at Doug's comments about Bell re heading the ball because, as someone who's keen on that particular skill, I rate Bell as one of the all time greats at both jumping & heading, alongside Dennis Law etc.

I recon there were 3 or 4 versions of Colin Bell. The 1st was a mainly attacking player who was actually pretty good on the dribble etc but more a forward than a midfield player. That player was the trophy winner though. The second version was making the transition from inside forward to modern day midfielder & not quite sure of his role but still shit hot. The 3rd was the finished product; pace, skill, awareness, goals, stamina, tackling, heading, better than Hughes at volleying, able to beat a man, fantastic crosser, superb intelligence, & taking shit from nobody. THAT version of Bell was the all time great one imo & he suffered one or two (serious ish at the time) injuries which interrupted that period & then, at his peak, his career wrecking injury came. He only reached that level for a few seasons & video is rare but at the time he became accepted as the best player in the England team.

The last verion of Bell was a bloke who had one leg shorter than the other & still got a place, as a defender, in a top 5, all star City team.

And Richard Dunne is referred to as a City legend..
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