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Barcelona tactics, the new W-W, inverted wingers and that...

PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 12:42 pm
by Guy Debord
By Jonathan Wilson

Football is a holistic game. Advance a player here, and you must retreat a player there. Give one player more attacking responsibility, and you must give another increased defensive duties. As three at the back has become outmoded as a balanced or attacking formation – though not as a defensive formation – by the boom in lone-striker systems, coaches have had to address the problem of how to incorporate attacking full-backs without the loss of defensive cover.

With clubs who use inverted wingers, as Barcelona do, the issue is particularly significant. For them, the attacking full-back provides not merely auxiliary attacking width but is the basic source of width as the wide forwards turn infield. The absence of an Argentinian Dani Alves figure in part explains why Lionel Messi has been less successful at national level than at club level. For Barcelona, as he turns inside off the right flank, Alves streaks outside him, and the opposing full-back cannot simply step inside and force Messi to try to use his weaker right foot. Do that, and Messi nudges it on to Alves. So the full-back tries to cover both options, and Messi then has time and space to inflict damage with his left foot.

It's the same if Pedro plays on the right flank, and the same when David Villa plays on the left. Barcelona's wide forwards are always looking to cut inside to exploit the space available on the diagonal, and that is facilitated if they have overlapping full-backs. Traditionally, if one full-back pushed forwards the other would sit, shuffling across to leave what was effectively a back three.

Barcelona, though, often have both full-backs pushed high, a risky strategy necessitated by how frequently they come up against sides who sit deep against them. With width on both sides they can switch the play quickly from one flank to the other, and turn even a massed defence. They still, though, need cover in case the opponent breaks, and so Sergio Busquets sits in, becoming in effect a third centre-back.

That, of course, isn't especially new. Most sides who have used a diamond in midfield have done something similar. At Shakhtar Donetsk, before they switched to a 4-2-3-1, Dario Srna and Razvan Rat were liberated by Mariusz Lewandowski dropping very deep in midfield. At Chelsea, Luiz Felipe Scolari would often, when sketching out his team shape, include Mikel John Obi as a third centre-back. And Barcelona themselves had Yaya Touré dropping back to play as a centre-back on their run to the Champions League trophy in 2008-09.

What is different is the degree. It's not just Barcelona. I first became aware of the trend watching Mexico play England in a pre-World Cup friendly. Trying to note down the Mexican formation, I had them as four at the back, then three, then four, then three, and then I realised it was neither and both, switching from 4-3-3 to 3-4-3, as it did during the World Cup.

Ricardo Osorio and Francisco Rodriguez sat deep as the two centre-backs, with Rafael Marquez operating almost as an old-fashioned (by which I mean pre-War) centre-half just in front of them. Paul Aguilar and Carlos Salcido were attacking full-backs, so the defence was effectively split into two lines, a two and a three. Efrain Juarez and Gerardo Torrado sat in central midfield, behind a front three of Giovani dos Santos, Guillermo Franco and Carlos Vela. The most accurate way of denoting the formation, in fact, would be 2-3-2-3: the shape, in other words, was the W-W with which Vittorio Pozzo's Italy won the World Cup in 1934 and 1938.

Of the same species as Pozzo

Pozzo first latched on to football while studying the manufacture of wool in Bradford in the first decade of the last century. He would travel all around Yorkshire and Lancashire watching games, eventually becoming a fan of Manchester United and, in particular, their fabled half-back line of Dick Duckworth, Charlie Roberts and Alec Bell. All centre-halves, he thought, should be like Roberts, capable of long, sweeping passes out to the wings. It was a belief he held fundamental and led to his decision, having been reappointed manager of the Italy national team in 1924, immediately to drop Fulvio Bernadini, an idol of the Roman crowds, because he was a 'carrier' rather than a 'dispatcher'.

As a result, Pozzo abhorred the W-M formation that his friend Herbert Chapman, the manager of Arsenal, developed after the change in the offside law in 1925, in which the centre-half – in Arsenal's case Herbie Roberts – became a stopper, an 'overcoat' for the opposing centre-forward. He did, though, recognise that in the new reality the centre-half had to take on some defensive responsibilities.

Pozzo found the perfect player for the role in Luisito Monti. He had played for Argentina in the 1930 World Cup but, after joining Juventus in 1931, became one of the oriundi – those South American players who, thanks to Italian heritage, qualified to play for their adopted country. Already 30 when he signed, Monti was overweight and, even after a month of solitary training, was not quick. He was, though, fit, and became known as Doble ancho (Double wide) for his capacity to cover the ground.

Monti became a centro mediano (halfway house) – not quite Charlie Roberts, but not Herbie Roberts either. He would drop when the other team had possession and mark the opposing centre-forward, but would advance and become an attacking fulcrum when his side had the ball. Although he was not a third back, he played deeper than a traditional centre-half and so the two inside-forwards retreated to support the wing-halves. Italy's shape became a 2-3-2-3, the W-W. At the time it seemed, as the journalist Mario Zappa put it in La Gazzetta della Sport, "a model of play that is the synthesis of the best elements of all the most admired systems", something borne out by Italy's success.

Footfalls echo in the memory

To acknowledge that modern football's shape at times resembles the 1930s, though, is not to repeat Qohelet, the author of Ecclesiastes, and lament the futility of a world without novelty: "What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun. Is there anything of which one can say, 'Look! This is something new'? It was here already, long ago; it was here before our time." Nor is it to argue that tactics are somehow cyclical, as many bewilderingly do.

Rather it is to acknowledge that fragments and echoes of the past still flicker, reinvented and reinterpreted for the modern age. Like Mexico, Barcelona's shape, at least when they use only one midfield holder, seems to ape that of Pozzo's Italy. Those who defend three at the back argue that, to prevent the side having two spare men when facing a single-striker system, one of the centre-backs can step into midfield, to which the response was always that few defenders are good enough technically to do that, and why not just field an additional midfielder anyway? What Barcelona and Mexico have done is approach the problem the opposite way round, using a holding midfielder as an additional centre-back rather than a centre-back as an additional midfielder.

But the style of football is very different. It is not just that modern football is far quicker than that of the 30s. Barcelona press relentlessly when out of possession, a means of defending that wasn't developed until a quarter of a century after Pozzo's second World Cup. In the opening 20 minutes at the Emirates last season when Barcelona overwhelmed Arsenal, the major difference between the sides lay not in technique but in the discipline of their pressing.

Inverted wingers, similarly, would have been alien to Pozzo: Enrique Guaita and Raimundo Orsi started wide and stayed wide, looking to reach the byline and sling crosses in. Angelo Schiavio was a fixed point as a centre-forward – no dropping deep or pulling wide for him. The two wing-halves, Attilio Ferraris and Luigi Bertolini, would have been too concerned with negating the opposing inside-forwards to press forward and overlap.

Nonetheless, the advantages of the W-W for a side that want to retain possession, the interlocking triangles offering simply passing options, remain the same. Having Busquets, the modern-day Monti, drop between Carles Puyol and Gerard Piqué isn't just a defensive move; it also makes it easier for Barcelona to build from the back. Against a 4-4-2 or a 4-2-3-1, Busquets can be picked up by a deeper-lying centre-forward or the central player in the trident, which can interrupt Barcelona's rhythm (just as sides realised after Kevin Keegan had deployed Antoine Sibierski to do the job, that – counterintuitively - Chelsea could be upset by marking Claude Makelélé); pull Busquets deeper, though, and he has more space to initiate attacks.

There is a wider point here, which relates to notation. Looking at reports from the early 70s, it seems bizarre to modern eyes that teams were still listed as though they played a 2-3-5, which had been dead for the best part of 70 years. Yet that, presumably, was still how journalists and their readers thought. Future generations may equally look at our way of recording formations and wonder how we ever thought it logical that a team playing "a back four" could feature fewer defensive players than a team playing "a back three".

We understand that full-backs attack and that in a back four the two centre-backs will almost invariably play deeper than their full-backs, but the formation as we note it doesn't record that. Barcelona tend to play a 4-1-2-3 or a 4-2-1-3, according to our system of notation; heat maps of average position, though, show it as a 2-3-2-3. Barcelona, like Mexico, play a W-W, but not as Pozzo knew it.

Re: Barcelona tactics, the new W-W, inverted wingers and that...

PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 1:10 pm
by MaineRoadMemories
At no point whilst reading that article did I ever suspect the name Antoine Sibierski to crop up !

Re: Barcelona tactics, the new W-W, inverted wingers and that...

PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 1:16 pm
by sandman
I think that would work, though I'd prefer to see Vinny in defence?

-------------------Hart------------------
Boateng--------K.Toure-------Kolorov
--------Kompany--------DeJong-------
Johnson---------Silva-----------Milner
---------Adebayor------Tevez----------

Or a more defensive line up;

-------------------Hart------------------
Boateng-------Kompany-------Kolorov
-----------Yaya---------DeJong--------
Johnson---------Barry-----------Milner
---------Adebayor------Tevez----------

Re: Barcelona tactics, the new W-W, inverted wingers and that...

PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 1:22 pm
by Dameerto
I love reading stuff like that - I don't know enough about 'older' formations and tactics really.

Re: Barcelona tactics, the new W-W, inverted wingers and that...

PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 1:28 pm
by Lev Bronstein
Wasn't that the game at COMS, Jose's first game against us, where we beat them 1-0 (Anelka?). If memory serves me correct JM paid tribute to KK's tactical nous. A pity we weren't always so crafty.

Alas another false dawn.

Re: Barcelona tactics, the new W-W, inverted wingers and that...

PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 1:28 pm
by Guy Debord
Dameerto wrote:I love reading stuff like that - I don't know enough about 'older' formations and tactics really.


Problem solved, just buy Wilson's book...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Inverting-Pyram ... 638&sr=8-1

Re: Barcelona tactics, the new W-W, inverted wingers and that...

PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 1:29 pm
by brite blu sky
Interesting read. Thanks for posting it.

I have explained the way Barca play a good few time on here, mainly when discussions of what Mancini might be up to break out.

The difference in practice to what this guy is identifying as W-W and what Barca end up with is the forward W gets not just compressed but disformed.. so in a way he is saying W-W again as a way of notating it to be understandable.

I would say that last season Barca were set out in the way he is describing, but possibly with the humongous failure against Inter or maybe that Guardiola had already seen the weakness Barca had, this season they are trying to develop it.. i think!

When the opposition is compressed in such a small space and disciplined to counter the attempts Barca make to cut into it, they struggle.
There are various basic options to try.. like having a player with some height to target, or having a player from deeper run in to receive a crafty through ball also from deeper.
Another strategy is to have a wildcard player that doesn't conform to the Barca robot style and is more direct.. this might be the addition of Villa this season.
Imo Barca were better with a couple or variety of such players.. Ronaldinho, Eto, Larsson etc who forced them to mix it up more.
Again imo Barca will get beat by uber disciplined teams this year for exactly this reason.


As for City and Mancini, being in the Prem i think forces the issue of variety and forces teams to have a direct side in their armoury, but it remains to be seen what ideas Mancini has got to cope with well drilled and disciplined defensive set ups.

Re: Barcelona tactics, the new W-W, inverted wingers and that...

PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 1:59 pm
by CityFanFromRome
sandman wrote:I think that would work, though I'd prefer to see Vinny in defence?

-------------------Hart------------------
Boateng--------K.Toure-------Kolorov
--------Kompany--------DeJong-------
Johnson---------Silva-----------Milner
---------Adebayor------Tevez----------


I think it should be something more like:
---------------------Hart------------------
Boateng----K.Toure---Kompany----Kolarov
-------------------DeJong--------------------
----------Yaya-------------Milner---------
----Tevez ------Adebayor----Silva-----

with boateng and Kolarov to push up when we have the ball and NDJ to drop back as third CB, while Yaya and Milner do the job that Xavi and Iniesta do at Barca of linking the back line with the front three (although, of course, with much less quality). AJ could then come on or start in Tevez or Silva's place, depending on the situations.

Re: Barcelona tactics, the new W-W, inverted wingers and that...

PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 2:00 pm
by Dameerto
Guy Debord wrote:
Dameerto wrote:I love reading stuff like that - I don't know enough about 'older' formations and tactics really.


Problem solved, just buy Wilson's book...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Inverting-Pyram ... 638&sr=8-1



Ah nice

Re: Barcelona tactics, the new W-W, inverted wingers and that...

PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 2:11 pm
by Ted Hughes
As you say BB Sky, the Premier League tends to throw a bit of a spanner in the works when it comes to tactical formations & plans 'B' 'C' 'D' are often required, especially if you meet the likes of Stoke on a small pitch when it's pissing down.

I was discussing this kind of formation, in my usual anoraky way, recently on here & we could do it but we could also do a more cautious version with our midfield 3 being in front of the CB's to cover, when we push the fullbacks forward. We also have people like Milner who could break from Midfield & do the overlapping job when the fullback stays back. In the end though, whether it's someone emulating Messi turning inside or emulating Alves overlapping, there's no point in doing either if you just whack the ball against the 1st player or into the stand at the end of it. We need quality balls coming in from either position & someone needs to be there to finish it.

Silva is now showing the rest of the team how it should be done. For any of these systems to work properly, other players have to produce the same quality as he is doing from those positions.

Re: Barcelona tactics, the new W-W, inverted wingers and that...

PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 2:47 pm
by MaineRoadMemories
Dameerto wrote:I love reading stuff like that - I don't know enough about 'older' formations and tactics really.


Just watch this...

[youtube]y4CXY6TVBMc[/youtube]

Re: Barcelona tactics, the new W-W, inverted wingers and that...

PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 2:53 pm
by mr_nool
MaineRoadMemories wrote:
Dameerto wrote:I love reading stuff like that - I don't know enough about 'older' formations and tactics really.


Just watch this...

[youtube]y4CXY6TVBMc[/youtube]


Fabulous video!

Re: Barcelona tactics, the new W-W, inverted wingers and that...

PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 4:02 pm
by Dameerto
That's quality, I'd forgotten all about that sketch.

Re: Barcelona tactics, the new W-W, inverted wingers and that...

PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 4:39 pm
by sandman
CityFanFromRome wrote:
sandman wrote:I think that would work, though I'd prefer to see Vinny in defence?

-------------------Hart------------------
Boateng--------K.Toure-------Kolorov
--------Kompany--------DeJong-------
Johnson---------Silva-----------Milner
---------Adebayor------Tevez----------


I think it should be something more like:
---------------------Hart------------------
Boateng----K.Toure---Kompany----Kolarov
-------------------DeJong--------------------
----------Yaya-------------Milner---------
----Tevez ------Adebayor----Silva-----

with boateng and Kolarov to push up when we have the ball and NDJ to drop back as third CB, while Yaya and Milner do the job that Xavi and Iniesta do at Barca of linking the back line with the front three (although, of course, with much less quality). AJ could then come on or start in Tevez or Silva's place, depending on the situations.


That would be my ideal line up, though as the thread is about the WW formation I have tried to fit them around the formation. I had to drop Yaya for Johnson though as Yaya isnt fast enough for the wing and Kompany is a better player?

Re: Barcelona tactics, the new W-W, inverted wingers and that...

PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 5:41 pm
by Beefymcfc
Is WonderWall now setting the tactics and formations? Will wonders never cease, nice one!

Re: Barcelona tactics, the new W-W, inverted wingers and that...

PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 5:45 pm
by brite blu sky
Ted Hughes wrote:As you say BB Sky, the Premier League tends to throw a bit of a spanner in the works when it comes to tactical formations & plans 'B' 'C' 'D' are often required, especially if you meet the likes of Stoke on a small pitch when it's pissing down.

I was discussing this kind of formation, in my usual anoraky way, recently on here & we could do it but we could also do a more cautious version with our midfield 3 being in front of the CB's to cover, when we push the fullbacks forward. We also have people like Milner who could break from Midfield & do the overlapping job when the fullback stays back. In the end though, whether it's someone emulating Messi turning inside or emulating Alves overlapping, there's no point in doing either if you just whack the ball against the 1st player or into the stand at the end of it. We need quality balls coming in from either position & someone needs to be there to finish it.

Silva is now showing the rest of the team how it should be done. For any of these systems to work properly, other players have to produce the same quality as he is doing from those positions.


We have discussed this quite a bit on here but as yet we are still waiting for Mancini to have his optimum team out. it wouldn't be a surprise to see the two fullbacks pushed right up and two CB and deJong sat back.. basically making the back W. Beyond that, for reasons of never seen it and as pointed out the Prem makes it less easy, the front set up is still a mystery. My guess is that flexibilty and swapping around will be the watchwords, so we become dangerous by token of always mixing the players around and trying different things. If that was to basically involve the forward 5 plus the two fullbacks there is plenty to go at to say the least. i think we have seen a bit of evidence to suggest this already. Willingness to swap wingers, Fullbacks also cutting in rather than just trying to go outside, Milner, Silva and Tevez all popping up left right and center, runners accross the box ( AJ goal springs to mind ), runners from deep.. Vieira, Yaya and Barry, Tevez and Silva going to the byline in the area and placing across the box for the other, one twos into the area. There has been some good stuff which requires both good players and plenty of time to learn. I think we are looking good value for a lot of mixed up forward play so far and it is still early days.
If anything that lacks it is good floated or crossed balls in.. but then we lack tall men up front apart from Ade, who has only really got into the swing of things as of now. Whether or not Balotelli changes that dynamic is yet to be seen. And as you have been banging on about Ted we would need some extra quality from the final ball, be it high or low.

It is worth pointing out that City have rarely had only two defenders to beat in counters.. teams seem wary to commit to the point they cant get 4 back in position to defend balls into the area.

Re: Barcelona tactics, the new W-W, inverted wingers and that...

PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 5:45 pm
by ronk
I think a look at our squad could show in some ways how close we already are to playing that way, albeit with versatile players. Because it's a change in notation to emphasise a difference in how the game has changed it would be best to stick with the notation change and view the team from that perspective (no matter how alien it might look). We call the same thing a flat back 4 with a holding midfielder

Hence against Arsenal (for 5 minutes) it would have looked something like this:

Hart
Kompany Boyata
Richards de Jong Boateng
Toure Barry
Milner Tevez Silva

Re: Barcelona tactics, the new W-W, inverted wingers and that...

PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:17 pm
by 1950
sandman wrote:
CityFanFromRome wrote:
sandman wrote:I think that would work, though I'd prefer to see Vinny in defence?

-------------------Hart------------------
Boateng--------K.Toure-------Kolorov
--------Kompany--------DeJong-------
Johnson---------Silva-----------Milner
---------Adebayor------Tevez----------


I think it should be something more like:
---------------------Hart------------------
Boateng----K.Toure---Kompany----Kolarov
-------------------DeJong--------------------
----------Yaya-------------Milner---------
----Tevez ------Adebayor----Silva-----

with boateng and Kolarov to push up when we have the ball and NDJ to drop back as third CB, while Yaya and Milner do the job that Xavi and Iniesta do at Barca of linking the back line with the front three (although, of course, with much less quality). AJ could then come on or start in Tevez or Silva's place, depending on the situations.


That would be my ideal line up, though as the thread is about the WW formation I have tried to fit them around the formation.


Not quite.

W
W

Read: 2 CB, 2 FB, 1 Holding Midfielder/3rd CB, 2 CM/AM, 2 (Inverted) Wingers, 1 CF
You had: 1 CB, 2 FB, 2 DM (one of them a CB), 2 IW, 1 AM, 2 Forwards

IMO the ideal* team for aping the Barca system:

[center]HART
KOLO KOMPANY
BOATENG DEJONG KOLAROV
YAYA SILVA
JOHNSON TEVEZ BALOTELLI[/center]

*in terms of disposition, not form or lack of

SILVA = INIESTA

RB is tricky as RICHARDS has shown good form, but his crossing is dire. His strength lies in cutting in. And obviously there's a question mark over BALOTELLI, but he has all the tools to become a deadly inverted winger.

Re: Barcelona tactics, the new W-W, inverted wingers and that...

PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 12:16 am
by Ted Hughes
1950 wrote:
sandman wrote:
CityFanFromRome wrote:
sandman wrote:I think that would work, though I'd prefer to see Vinny in defence?

-------------------Hart------------------
Boateng--------K.Toure-------Kolorov
--------Kompany--------DeJong-------
Johnson---------Silva-----------Milner
---------Adebayor------Tevez----------


I think it should be something more like:
---------------------Hart------------------
Boateng----K.Toure---Kompany----Kolarov
-------------------DeJong--------------------
----------Yaya-------------Milner---------
----Tevez ------Adebayor----Silva-----

with boateng and Kolarov to push up when we have the ball and NDJ to drop back as third CB, while Yaya and Milner do the job that Xavi and Iniesta do at Barca of linking the back line with the front three (although, of course, with much less quality). AJ could then come on or start in Tevez or Silva's place, depending on the situations.


That would be my ideal line up, though as the thread is about the WW formation I have tried to fit them around the formation.


Not quite.

W
W

Read: 2 CB, 2 FB, 1 Holding Midfielder/3rd CB, 2 CM/AM, 2 (Inverted) Wingers, 1 CF
You had: 1 CB, 2 FB, 2 DM (one of them a CB), 2 IW, 1 AM, 2 Forwards

IMO the ideal* team for aping the Barca system:

[center]HART
KOLO KOMPANY
BOATENG DEJONG KOLAROV
YAYA SILVA
JOHNSON TEVEZ BALOTELLI[/center]

*in terms of disposition, not form or lack of

SILVA = INIESTA

RB is tricky as RICHARDS has shown good form, but his crossing is dire. His strength lies in cutting in. And obviously there's a question mark over BALOTELLI, but he has all the tools to become a deadly inverted winger.


It would be nice to see something like that & perhaps we will against some of the lesser teams but I would be surprised, nay shocked, if he doesn't go for 3 solid midfielders in front of the centre backs, so either Barry or Milner where you've got Silva. I recon Silvais more likely to be one of the front 3 alternating with Johnson & Balotelli.

Interesting that the formation there wouldn't be that far away from the one that won us the league, with Bell & Young in place of Silva & Yaya, then up front Summerbee & Coleman a bit further out wide & Lee in the middle, Alan Oakes in place of DeJong behind. Not a million miles away, just a slight difference at the back with Doyle's position etc. Sometimes they would write it as 3 'halfbacks' with the 2 fullbacks behind but it never looked like that on the pitch imo & was closer to the formation there with Book & Pardoe coming forward, Oakes in middle, Bell & Young 'inside forwards' two wide players & a centre forward usually Lee but sometimes Summerbee.

Re: Barcelona tactics, the new W-W, inverted wingers and that...

PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 9:16 am
by brite blu sky
These line ups look something like what Mancini may try to produce. He also has a fair few options to be a bit more defensively solid or a bit more width, also things like Ade and Balotelli as 2 of the front 3. So in that basic formation there are plenty of possibilities to mix it up depending on the opposition.

As it turned out Arsenal was a disaster for us just as some things were coming together, but even with 10 we remained powerful and it is that powerful base that gives a confidence to view what might be when Bobby can field who he wants.

Looking at the aquisitions of the summer the obvious ones being Yaya, Silva and Balotelli as to what they may add to the team. But i rekon if you look a bit closer it becomes notable that Silva, Balotelli and Milner are all very flexible forward minded players, so the sum total comes in with Tevez, Silva, Balotelli, Milner and AJ who can all play across the front without any kind of boundaries at all.. in fact you could add Adebayor to that as a lot of people have moaned about him taking up wide positions all the time when he should be sat in the middle. Now all that to me suggests a very fluid forward 5 that is difficult to plan for.. keeps the oppo defence seriously on their toes and will over the course of a game find out weaknesses and who is suspect to which attackers.

The addition of the two fullbacks also potentially charging in adds to this danger.. although compared to the front 5 they would be slightly more predictable as to what they would do.

Now if all those players are high quality and a few are on form then i doubt there are many teams in the world that would not find that too much to cope with.

Personally i think this is still really early days and that it takes a lot of understanding between players to get the best out of such a system. At the start of the season i thought it would take at least till december to see glimpses of things working out, now with the slow coming together of the new players i dont expect anything until well into the new year, ultimately the whole season to learn this properly and bed it in.